Official BBR Tier List v7

[Ayce God]

just call me mister guess your main

 

[Nike.]

I main the only **** character that is gayer than Yoshi.

That is not possible!

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Since we're on the topic of mains, anyone want to guess what my main is?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Doctor Mario.

 

[DMG]

blue yoshi

yoshi icons for days

I bet you main LINK

 

[| Big D |]

Master Hand.

Because Master Hand is the worst character in the game.

He's so easy to time out, his attacks are so predictable.

 

[Nike.]

It's clearly jigglypuff

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Yo, let's all just main MK. All the cool kids are doing it!

Once we get bored with him, we can ban him and go all ICs.

Ah, Brawl is most definitely the best competitive fighter ever made.

Everybody should Pick Yoshi and learn to DR.

Who needs to block?
Heck, we should all go aggro!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

What makes Pikachu a better character than Marth?
And what makes Zss good enough to be in the same tier as them while moving Wario down?

Wario is IMO not as good as a solo main as tier 4. He loses too badly to MK and has a few questionable match-ups in mid tier. He also hasn't really done well in anywhere but Europe since like early 2010, everyone says he's good and uses him as a secondary but he has few mains and there's a reason for that. :\

As for Pikachu, I don't know, I don't see Pikachu and Marth as being very different in terms of viability, actually. Same goes for ZSS. They all have the potential to do pretty well but all three have to work a little harder than the guys above them to do it. Marth, ZSS, and Pikachu all have mostly even and +1/-1 match-ups across the entire game with a few stomp matchups (like ZSS vs ROB/DK, Marth vs like PT and Lucas , Pikachu vs Fox). Their match-up spreads are still good, but just plainly worse than top tier.

I didn't really put characters into order within the tiers. Well, I think Wario is better than Fox. By the way, about Fox: I'm not alone in this opinion. There's an entire country, a very competitive and strong one, that places Fox at the top of high tier (higher than I placed him by the way). Fox is hurt most at nationals by the presence of ESAM. lol

When I was putting my list together I looked at it like this: in a national, who do you expect to see doing well? Well, MK and ICs. Then Snake and Olimar, and Diddy Kong. You might see a Falco, but Falco for whatever reason is just not as popular as he used to be, even though I still think he's pretty awesome.

After that, you see a few other characters show up: Marth, Pikachu, and ZSS. These characters are good and competitive, but require tons of knowledge about the game, a really good player, and a little luck... and just lack consistency. They don't usually win big tournaments, but they can definitely get to the top 10 area and do pretty often.

Most of the characters after that tend to be secondaries or use secondaries to avoid bad match-ups. Like, I wouldn't ever put Dedede in high tier because he just can't do it alone. The jury's still out on Pit. I just don't really know yet.

Oh, and I know I didn't put Lucario on my list, but I just got through watching Trela vs. M2k and I've got to eat my words about Lucario: he has options I didn't know existed. Very impressive player, too. Trela never ceases to amaze me.

supermodel from paris, tell me, who do you main in brawl?

He mains ZSS.

Although actually I play less and less ZSS all the time. I went thorugh a period where I played a ton of Peach, then Pikachu, and recently I have started playing Marth and Pit.

Mr. R is spot on about Link. Link is obviously not very good but I've been boggling about his bottom tier placement since forever.

 

[Sinister Slush]

To be honest, I would actually consider hopping back into the scene if Yoshi became the FotM like how Pit and a few others were back from the Top 5 thread.
Just cause of the activity it'd bring up and hilarious results that'd start coming in from people using such a horrible character.

 

[ぱみゅ]

She's the embodiment of Olimar, cstick and side b.

>Zelda
>Side B

ohboi.
If only Din's Fire were 1/10 as useful as Pikmin Throw...

 

[-LzR-]

It's actually mindblowing that people actually even mention sideB and Zelda in the same sentence...

 

[Orion*]

I main the only **** character that is gayer than Yoshi.

Jiggs isn't gay. Like if there's no LGL sure. But otherwise she just plays gay, but in reality it's really not gay... She like doesn't have the priority to actually wall people out with gay ****, and reward is mediocre. The only thing that's rough is people tend to underestimate her gimps and get messed up but like, there aren't any good puffs so whatever.

I didn't really put characters into order within the tiers. Well, I think Wario is better than Fox. By the way, about Fox: I'm not alone in this opinion. There's an entire country, a very competitive and strong one, that places Fox at the top of high tier (higher than I placed him by the way). Fox is hurt most at nationals by the presence of ESAM. lol

Like if it was how good I think fox's character tools are he would be top tier. But in terms of tournament viability, having 3 hard counters and 1 of them being common makes him not top.

Orion, that mid tier grouping would be a NIGHTMARE loool.

How?

To be fair I removed high and borderline tier, and condensed it all to top mid and bottom.

That just means he sucks less then jiggs not that he's underrated.

This, and thank you

That still means he's underrated.

I also disagree with Lucas being above Yoshi. PT I can kind of see an argument for, I guess.

No @ underrated

When I look at the sucessful players of yoshi and of lucas, Lucas has more mixups and options in most situations. Yoshi does have a lot of options top players of the character don't utilize imho, but if like the only thing the mains are experimenting with is pivot grab, usmash and eggs I genuinely don't think yoshi will do as good vs other top tiers in the long run.

Orion, stop agreeing with me.

Post more essay garbage

Being unpredictable with mostly three options is usually not as effective as doing it with ten reasonably useful options. Like I said, Wario needs a hard read on specific moves to get in, but with Meta Knight having so many options that cover all but one or two moves at specific times, and those individual counter moves being different against each of Meta Knight's moves, it starts to look really bleak for Wario.

It's not like you're supposed to just jump in and 50/50 though. You can put yourself in ranges to soft commit and react if he does the option you think he's going to, and if he doesnt back off safely.

Outside of fair/dtilt/uair I question the safety of the options you're talking about.

Like, Marth has a pretty bad record against Falco, I believe, but try telling that to the forums. You say "but he loses to him all the time and it's easy to see why, he doesn't really have the tools to deal with Falco" and the forums are like "but dash speed and fair."

The only falco is larry that has even made it to good marths in the past few years. That's kinda unfair LMAO.

 

[Luco]

Of course, you can then taunt out of Samus and get suit pieces again...

How exactly is this done? I've always wanted to do it and it would be interesting to imagine a Samus-ZSS player.

 

[Orion*]

How exactly is this done? I've always wanted to do it and it would be interesting to imagine a Samus-ZSS player.

pretty sure its up down up on the dpad really fast

might be wrong since i like only do it when i get samus in random mms.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

pretty sure its up down up on the dpad really fast

That is correct.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is probably the wrong thread for this but lots of theorycrafters post here and I like you guys so:

When trying to figure out how fast something comes out OOS it's 7 for shield drop+frames of the move, right?

So ZSS jab OOS is frame 8?
Uptilt (frame 3 move) is frame 10?

Also, JC OOS is 1 frame (for the jump startup)+move startup frames, right? So for ZSS usmash OOS (8 frame move) it would be 9 frames OOS?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This is probably the wrong thread for this but lots of theorycrafters post here and I like you guys so:

When trying to figure out how fast something comes out OOS it's 7 for shield drop+frames of the move, right?

So ZSS jab OOS is frame 8?
Uptilt (frame 3 move) is frame 10?

Also, JC OOS is 1 frame (for the jump startup)+move startup frames, right? So for ZSS usmash OOS (8 frame move) it would be 9 frames OOS?

Yes, that's how shield drop frames work. I -think- that's how jump-cancel works, too (1 extra frame on top of it), but I'm not positive if it's possible to buffer it from shield-stun or anything.

Also, with an aerial out of shield, you have to sit through the full jump squat animation (most characters are at five frames).

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Also, with an aerial out of shield, you have to sit through the full jump squat animation (most characters are at five frames).

Small detail: for anything but uair, this can be buffered so the aerial comes out right after jump squat. If you try to buffer uair, you get a usmash.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, shorthop U-Air is OUTSTANDING for Fox mains, and they should practice this all the time. It's like a dangerous version of Sheik's empty shorthop stuff to scare people--It's a win-win situation. Timing it well make it autocancel. The body shift can also help with approaching characters that poke low, like Meta Knight D-Tilt or Olimar grab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The body shift you talk about is actually useful for a ton of characters with fast uairs that dislocate the hurtbubbles (bonus points if they have low shorthops): Squirtle (I suspect this is how you knew that), Fox, Maybe Falcon, etc.

 

[ぱみゅ]

You can buffer uair, just tilt the stick.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As in, keep it at halfway upward instead of all the way upward.

The U-Air thing is especially useful for Fox, though, because his neutral game is mediocre if he can't confuse the opponent, and his horizontal aerial mobility blows. Also, an airdodge should net you a free U-Smash, no problem.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ah, true. So you don't use the c-stick.

like shorthop-tilt stick up-A.

 

[Yikarur]

buffered upair is awesome with Diddy!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

How good do you guys reckon down-b OOS would be with ZSS if you JC it

Plus: instant intangibility out of shield for 12 frames (1 frame JC-intang on frame 1)

Minus: you can't do anything but footstool until the animation ends.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Probably okay, I guess.

Did I read somewhere that Lucario's command grab is super duper fast? Why isn't it spammed?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Because you can mash out of it instantly and IIRC, punish it before he can move.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Probably okay, I guess.

Did I read somewhere that Lucario's command grab is super duper fast? Why isn't it spammed?

Its slower then his regular grab and with only slightly more range. However, if you buffer it within like, I think 7-10 frames before landing it activates on frame 1 the instant you hit the ground. You can do some seriously gritty set ups with that trick.

Because you can mash out of it instantly and IIRC, punish it before he can move.

Eh, thats no big deal unless you decide to chaingrab with it. Otherwise its pretty hard to react to. I don't think any lucario even chaingrabs with it anymore, because theres plenty of other combo's you can do out of a successful force palm at low percent that do just as much damage.

 

[Orion*]

Doing lucarios command grab like that from the air is also more of a mixup, although extremely powerful because it will kill if the percents are high enough. But mixing up between like that and fair on the back of a lot of characters shields is super frustrating.

Even once I adapted to it, I still had to hard read with like Falco if it was the sideB in order to spotdodge it because the lingering hitbox is super lame. What I ended up having to do was roll out of the situation many times, because if they got greedy I could still grab them if they throw out the command grab.

Characters with poor reward oos will definitely get frustrated by this.

 

[Luigi player]

Doing lucarios command grab like that from the air is also more of a mixup, although extremely powerful because it will kill if the percents are high enough. But mixing up between like that and fair on the back of a lot of characters shields is super frustrating.

Even once I adapted to it, I still had to hard read with like Falco if it was the sideB in order to spotdodge it because the lingering hitbox is super lame. What I ended up having to do was roll out of the situation many times, because if they got greedy I could still grab them if they throw out the command grab.

Characters with poor reward oos will definitely get frustrated by this.

Just use DK and bair him.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Doing lucarios command grab like that from the air is also more of a mixup, although extremely powerful because it will kill if the percents are high enough. But mixing up between like that and fair on the back of a lot of characters shields is super frustrating.

Even once I adapted to it, I still had to hard read with like Falco if it was the sideB in order to spotdodge it because the lingering hitbox is super lame. What I ended up having to do was roll out of the situation many times, because if they got greedy I could still grab them if they throw out the command grab.

Characters with poor reward oos will definitely get frustrated by this.

Very frustrating. I've ticked off so many people with f-air shenanigans. Forcepalm is the strongest when used in conjunction with f-air strings. F-airing a shield then fastfalling a forcepalm is incredibly effective as a surprise move. Its usually done after training the opponent to block f-air d-air, or f-air n-air. Lucario's f-air is so godlike for setting up things. And at lower percent forcepalm has some stupidly good follow ups. Its truly a fantastic options when coupled with all of lucario's amazing options outta f-air.

It becomes sort of a rock paper scissors sorta thing. Falling back and and aurasphereing beats roll, d-air and n-air beat spot dodge, and fast fall force palm beats shield. Haha~

 

[Orion*]

Well lucario isn't trying to really rush down and be in DKs face like that anyway I think, so lmao.

@ sunny

yeah fair -> RPS is kinda broken in a lot of matchups. It's not like snake or something, but I really feel like 50/50s, RPS, or Trades tend to go in lucarios favor most of the time.

edit:

Not in that he wins RPS more, that's stupid. More that just at a equal skill level, if you're constantly having to deal with trades against lucario, you will probably be at a disadvantage with most characters.

 

[da K.I.D.]

up air out of shield is one of sonics better oos options as well.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Not in that he wins RPS more, that's stupid. More that just at a equal skill level, if you're constantly having to deal with trades against lucario, you will probably be at a disadvantage with most characters.

Oh yea, for the most part its good to put the opponent into that situation.

Its character dependent though. I find approaching snake SO very insufferable because you can't afford to make those trades with him. Theres a couple of characters that win the trade and when that happens we have to like, "dance" around them if we wanna fight up close. Its a major stress. I wanna say the snake MU is -2 vs lucario for that very reason, but I know its not. I'd rank it a -2 if MU's were based on how stupid a match up feels.

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol orion, how does lucas have more mixup options than yoshi? are you forgetting yoshi has DR, a long reaching command grab, better mobility, double jump armor (trust me, tricking people into hitting your armor just to retaliate works quite well, especially since people tend to never expect it), etc. I mean, I honestly dont think Lucas is too far behind Yoshi, but if you actually understood how yoshi worked, youd see has a bit of an upper hand.

 

[Lord Chair]

Hey, Mewtwo is a good character he has xyz options and they exist. Clearly he's better than Lucas.

 

[Luigi player]

If Mewtwo was in Brawl it would beat MK.

 

[Orion*]

lol orion, how does lucas have more mixup options than yoshi? are you forgetting yoshi has DR, a long reaching command grab, better mobility, double jump armor (trust me, tricking people into hitting your armor just to retaliate works quite well, especially since people tend to never expect it), etc. I mean, I honestly dont think Lucas is too far behind Yoshi, but if you actually understood how yoshi worked, youd see has a bit of an upper hand.

Better mobility in terms of horizontal air motion is true. In terms of interchanging his air game with his ground game, I think not. Especially because mobility without the freedom to shield safely is extremely hindered in a lot of matchups.
Yoshi has ways around this that his metagame has extended on, but that doesn't make up for the fact that he has something that he has to make up for.

DR and egg lay are yoshi's 2 saving graces that essentially keep him afloat in terms of having any potential.

Currently, there are like no top yoshi's capable of beating people that are able to use DR in a way where it will like significantly change matchups. Like sometimes it's thrown in their, but it's not changing games consistently. When there's someone putting in work to make their movement fluid like Mr.Rs and consistently do fluid dash cancels in zoning ranges, and then add in DR to movement then it will probably be a threat because yoshi's movement will actually be hard to trace.

Essentially the only mixups, if you want to call them that is yoshi just approaching with is dash grab and usmash.

Egg Lay in terms of function is broken. In terms of reward it's not that scary, and it's fairly easy to beat in comparison to Warios because you can simply spot dodge egg lay, and then like any character can hard punish.

Actually, something people NEVER do, is like with snake if yoshi Breverses an egg lay at you, or does it from the air you can crouch, and then dair, or essentially anything you want.

Lmao @ tricking people into DJ armor.

I don't genuinely think the viability difference between them is that different, mainly because of grab release garbage. But at high level play I just see lucas performing better. It's possible I could be wrong, but like I don't think I will be tight if someone comes 2 years later to troll me with x yoshi main does better than lucas.

 

[Delta-cod]

I actually think Lucas struggles just as hard as Yoshi does as far as reliably approaching and killing.

Like, he can get shutout pretty hard by Yoshi. Think about that for a second.