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Official BBR Tier List v7

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Kuro~

Nitoryu Kuro
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Lol ya i wouldn't use glide in that way vs a gaw or rob. Rob has fair/ff upair and gaw has nair/fair. Rob has b-reverse chasing and gaw generally doesn't have to commit to much to juggle efficiently.(unless i was baiting it cuz if the gaw doesn't commit to an early nair or rob fair then glide will trade with anything put out and can kill.)


There's not a single AT in the game with a cool name. The names aren't there for style. They r there to tell u wth it does lmao.
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
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Marth LOLOLOLOLOLOL
To be fair I venture at how often I question snakes viability in the same manner. Both are fairly inconsistent in comparison to the higher characters.

Actually arrows lead into moves. Grounded kill moves at close range. And aerial arrows can be followed up with an aerial. IE up arrow can be followed with a bair or if in poor positioning can be followed up with an upair.
What is the frame advantage? O_o
at best from feeling I could see it being a 50/50 unless the arrow got charged but data might prove my intuition wrong.

Also simple arrow snipes after a high knockback move finishes ppl off earlier than they would of died. And that is a consistent thing to take note of. It is not based on luck. If you have a strong degree of arrow accuracy.
That's not setting up into the kill move itself >_>

But i feel the dmg output combined with pits fast kill moves and ability to set up aerial situations(easiest situation to get a kill off in the game for most characters not named ness or ice climbers) with bair puts it up there. ALong with the offstage presence and reasons above.
I do genuinely feel that other than like snake, and maybe falco Pit should have a pretty hard time killing safe top tier opponents at a high level.

Actually with glide shifting gliding is an amazing mix up tool.
gonna agree with grim still on this one
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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This is true, but to be fair. there's 2 things preventing this

1. fear of invincible fart
2. lgl

neither are particularly end alls to the situation, mk can still avoid fart well. But he wants to keep grabbing that ledge to plank perfectly it's gonna eat ledge grabs quick.... if he's trying to save LGs so he doesn't go over, he's putting himself at risk. Most of mks options to avoid grabbing the ledge, but implying planking, such as glide and airdodging on stage can be farted, and since you are closer to the blast zone if you weren't in kill % yet, you definitely are now.

It's actually pretty easy to stall out farts as MK. In fact falling with Uairs from the edge covers most of Wario's options besides grabbing the edge, which is an ok option it just sucks balls that you're stuck with edge grab lag if he goes for an onstage option. MK on the edge in general is a guessing game for Wario, thank god you have a LGL but it's still gay.

MK beats out those options, but wario only needs a read to get in. To legit get fsmashes it will probably take a double read if the MK doesn't make a mistake, but lmao the risk reward for going for it is high enough that it's common to see wario's just go for it anyway. It's not That uncommon, because it happens commonly in almost all high level games between the two characters.

Reliability, and incredibly uncommon are different things. It's not something you can reliably fish for during a match, however it will happen through the course of the game if you let things take it's course.


Landing Fsmash vs MK? What's easier is shield grabbing bad spaced moves, Dtilt spam, or glide attacks. Fsmash is hard to use vs MK and usually is after trying to airdodge into MK's personal space. If he SH nairs and misses, then yeah go for it. Fsmash is just a rarity to connect with because on the ground it's easier and more feasible to punish with grabs in general speed and OOS wise, and punishing MK mistakes in the air is Uair Fart or the occasional other aerial. Fsmash being "bound to work" isn't a convincing point that he can handle it lol. I know what you mean, and it's common for small slip ups that allow the Fsmash super armor through a close Fair or the shuttle loop that gets shielding and *****. Stuff like that human wise is bound to happen, but it's obvious that Wario only has a shot at keeping the MU close through abnormal punishes. His actual tools compared to Diddy Falco IC's etc vs MK do not hold up. I'm just glad you aren't one of those 55:45 people cause I hate that with a passion WARIO IS NOT A GOD LADIES AND GENTLEMEN



Then apparently there are absolutely NO good metaknights among the top placers, except Maybe like anti but we will never know because doesn't enter more than 1 tournament per year.

If uair can hit you, and you decide to glide btw, you are definitely getting uaired or potentially farted. I literally already have to be in a situation you can't hit me from to start gliding safely. I don't know why people magically think gliding in front or above people is safe, it's a committed option with startup lag.

Tornado above Wario isn't that great (the height both of you are at obviously determines how good it is, being above Wario if he can't jump above or around you is fine or if you are gonna auto cancel it's usually fine), but the gliding part is true somewhat. Say you get Uthrow for example. A lot of MK players will just jump away, but use a loooot of jumps and feel pressured still when they could have done 1-2, glided away, and come back to the edge or stage.

Gliding immediately after a hit that sent you, say diagonally, is a big no no. If he Fthrows you and you decide to Jump/Glide instantly, STOP! horrible **** happens to you. Gliding vs Wario is achieving your goals horizontally, not vertically. Gliding threatens Wario from the side because he doesn't have great hitboxes to cover horizontally that also matches up with different GA timings or spacings. Gliding when there's a difference vertically is best for Wario because he can challenge it better and being above in a way that you can't easily steer the glide down or away from him makes that clap or fart imminent.




Uthrow does 10% and give's you potential for juggling as well.
I'm sure you know that but like lmao, it's something that people should do more, especially considering the fact that keeping fthrow fresh to kill at 150% near the ledge is a super useful tool.


Uthrow is overrated vs MK. Wario's throw game vs MK in general isn't that great because it tends to put things close to neutral, there's no Dthrow into OMG FALCO OPTIONS lol. Uthrow is fine if you have a hard read or if the MK is only going to jump/dair away, DI after low % also helps. Uthrow is better vs people like Marth. For MK I Fthrow him until it's stale and doing the same damage as Uthrow. Also depends on how much damage they already have. SUPER low % Uthrow is worth it.



Red lettersssss



 

TheReflexWonder

Wonderful!
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Like most of these averages of MK having 8 right moves and 2 wrong ones and taking 50% on average getting in is like, extremely random and probably mostly salt. The message is correct to a sense, but the exaggeration of it is beyond ridiculous.

If MK has to remain unpredictable in order to not get ****ed up, then I'm not going to think it's as bad as you are trying to say it is. MK, and many other top tiers in +2 MUs CAN be relatively predictable, but the tools they have are so good that they shut the character out regardless.
Just wanted to point out that I meant 50% in relation to how many times Meta Knight will keep me out between my lucky airdodge or abnormal punish. Because of the risk/reward, it's very common for Meta Knight to stuff Wario's approach half a dozen times or more before Wario manages to actually get in.

Unpredictability works that much in Meta Knight's favor because he has far more tools to work with than most characters. Being unpredictable with mostly three options is usually not as effective as doing it with ten reasonably useful options. Like I said, Wario needs a hard read on specific moves to get in, but with Meta Knight having so many options that cover all but one or two moves at specific times, and those individual counter moves being different against each of Meta Knight's moves, it starts to look really bleak for Wario.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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orion let me show you why it's so hard to juggle pit. im uploading some matches in a while and ill link in the part that shows that real reason pit is hard to juggle is glide>woi.

just have some faith that im not talking out my *** and ill put the vid up soon
 
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To be fair I venture at how often I question snakes viability in the same manner. Both are fairly inconsistent in comparison to the higher characters.
If you think Marth is good I respect that but man most of smashboards can't have an intelligent conversation about Marth. There's almost never a real acknowledgement of his iffy performance or character weaknesses. It's always "good zoning and omg upb" and some nonsense.

Personally I think Marth is overrated a fair bit and I think a lot of his match-ups are inflated by ridiculous forum theorycraft. Like, Marth has a pretty bad record against Falco, I believe, but try telling that to the forums. You say "but he loses to him all the time and it's easy to see why, he doesn't really have the tools to deal with Falco" and the forums are like "but dash speed and fair."

I don't question his viability (Marth is a good character, and you can play him and do well) but I do question him as a top 5 second-tier character. I just don't see that. If you look at the characters that are most common in high placings at big tournaments you're going to see MK, ICs, Snake, Olimar, and Diddy Kong, but not Marth. Falco, Marth, ZSS, and Pikachu all do well too, but it's obviously harder to break into like top 5 with them. Falco specifically does well in some regions and less well in others, but it probably has to do with the quality of Falco players and where they are.

Also I like your tier list but I think you have ZSS too low. Say what you want about her but she does much better as a solo main in tournaments than most of the characters you put into her tier. I think you might have Fox too low, still though, or at least in the wrong tier.

Maybe there ought to be a Fox+Wario tier.

I'll take a shot:

Top:
1. MK
2. ICs.
3. Olimar, Snake, Diddy Kong, (Falco)

High:
4. (Falco), Pikachu, Marth, ZSS,
5. Wario, Fox,

Mid:
Orion's list from her down is pretty good.
 

Seagull Joe

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edit: sorry for double post

My current tier list

orders within tiers do not matter, but are organized to fit my current feelings. as I change them relatively often although if anyone asks I can say who I think is more versatile in a tournament setting atm.

assuming conservative stage list, i.e. no sharking stages

S: MK, ICs
A: Olimar, Diddy, Marth, Snake
B: Falco, Wario, Pika

mid

C: Fox, Wolf, Lucario, ZSS, DDD, Pit, TL
D: Sheik, GaW, Kirby, Peach, Rob
E: Sonic, DK, Ike

Low

F: PT, Lucas, Yoshi, Ness
G: Everyone else
Z: ganon

edit:

I do feel my bias for marth puts him above snake, and arguably there are very good reasons to put snake above him. I think marth does better vs MK than snake, and Snake does better vs ICs. Marth does better vs Olimar, and they both go even with diddy imo
Jesus christ at where you put :wolf: (That high), but not disagreeing with you either (Except that :dedede: and :zerosuitsamus: are noticeably better then every other character in MT/LT that you listed).

:018:

:phone:
 

Nike.

Smash Hero
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I'll take a shot:

Top:
1. MK
2. ICs.
3. Olimar, Snake, Diddy Kong, (Falco)

High:
4. (Falco), Pikachu, Marth, ZSS,
5. Wario, Fox,

Mid:
Orion's list from her down is pretty good.
What makes Pikachu a better character than Marth?
And what makes Zss good enough to be in the same tier as them while moving Wario down?
 

smashkng

Smash Lord
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Is Marth's record against Falco really that bad? DEHF, who is by far the best Falco at the Marth matchup, lost to Leon at SKTAR and also loses to Mikehaze pretty often.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
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SSSSSSS: luigi
S:MK
A: ICs, Olimar, Diddy, Snake, Falco, Marth
B: Wario, Pikachu, ZSS, TL, Dedede, Lucario
C: Wolf, Pit, GaW, Sheilda, Sheik,
D: Peach, Kirby, DK, ROB,
E: Sonic, Ike
F: Yoshi, PT, Ness, Lucas, Mario
G: Samus, Link
H: Falcon, Bowser, jigglypuff, Ganon, Zelda
-Z: Fox

:phone:
 

#HBC | ZoZo

Shocodoro Blagshidect
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S: MK, ICs
A: Olimar, Diddy, Marth, Snake
B: Falco, Wario, Pika

mid

C: Fox, Wolf, Lucario, ZSS, DDD, Pit, TL
D: Sheik, GaW, Kirby, Peach, Rob
E: Sonic, DK, Ike

Low

F: PT, Lucas, Yoshi, Ness
G: Everyone else
Z: ganon
Honest don't know if ICs deserve to be S with MK. besides that I like the tier list. Only change I would make is Luc lower, maybe Peach 1 or 2 higher. I digg
 
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