Official BBR Tier List v6

[Nestec]

Umm. I've been gone a while, so I'm extremely out of the loop, but uh...when is Tier List 7 coming out?

 

[C.J.]

The day before yesterday.

 

[Neon!]

Wow i looked at the matchup chart for Ike for the first time, these are like the most optimistic ratings ike could possibly have. Losing to ice climbers by only -1 seems absurd and I could definitely see falco, diddy or pika being worse than -1 for him as well.

Dk on the other hand has the most pessimistic ratings possible. When the debate started, 1/3 of the cast tried to change their rating against dk in their favor.

Both characters lose to mk but DK is still better in general against mk, results have proven this. DK does better against snake, marth, gw and lucario while Ike does better against DDD, wario and zss. They both lose solidly against the rest of the top/high tier.

 

[Cassio]

iirc Ikes only real problematic MU was MK. -1 is about accurate for vs pika. There was even argument for even but...naahhh.

I dont mean to hate on DK since hes a pretty solid mid tier, but I wouldnt call being -2'd or worse by everyone in top tier excluding diddy/marth a strong top tier spread.

Nestec the list comes out by the end of the month.

 

[san.]

Think really hard. Could it be optimism/pessimism or just your bias? How are you so sure what another character's MUs are like?

I think ICs/Pika could be -1 or 0 (I think Ryo has an even more positive view on these two), and Falco/Diddy seem fine as -1 to me.

ICs is a chaotic MU where either can lose a stock with a single mistake. Pika has a nice CG but other than that it is just plain annoying for him mid % and up with getting outranged, jabs and dealing with a heavy.

As long as pika can get an early grab (after dealing with the insane jab and aerial spacing) pika can maintain an edge similar to how Falco does it, but without a jab to compete with Ike on the ground, and a little better mid % game than Falco.

If I didn't live 5-6 hours from the nearest viable tourney spot/ didn't have to pay $80-100+ just for a single trip, I wouldn't be considered inactive only going to tourneys within a few hours of my current location (that is also why I pretty much abstained from being too involved in the next tier list since I was pretty isolated from the community at that time)

 

[Nestec]

iirc Ikes only real problematic MU was MK. -1 is about accurate for vs pika. There was even argument for even but...naahhh.

I dont mean to hate on DK since hes a pretty solid mid tier, but I wouldnt call being -2'd or worse by everyone in top tier excluding diddy/marth a strong top tier spread.

Nestec the list comes out by the end of the month.

K, thanks buddy.

 

[Neon!]

Think really hard. Could it be optimism/pessimism or just your bias? How are you so sure what another character's MUs are like?

I think ICs/Pika could be -1 or 0 (I think Ryo has an even more positive view on these two), and Falco/Diddy seem fine as -1 to me.

ICs is a chaotic MU where either can lose a stock with a single mistake. Pika has a nice CG but other than that it is just plain annoying for him mid % and up with getting outranged, jabs and dealing with a heavy.

As long as pika can get an early grab (after dealing with the insane jab and aerial spacing) pika can maintain an edge similar to how Falco does it, but without a jab to compete with Ike on the ground, and a little better mid % game than Falco.

If I didn't live 5-6 hours from the nearest viable tourney spot/ didn't have to pay $80-100+ just for a single trip, I wouldn't be considered inactive only going to tourneys within a few hours of my current location (that is also why I pretty much abstained from being too involved in the next tier list since I was pretty isolated from the community at that time)

The only matchup of Ike's I really disagree with is -1 with IC's. Many DK's have also felt that pika and falco are only -1 for us.

 

[Ishiey]

So what do you disagree with about Ike:IC's being -1:+1? What knowledge of the MU leads you to think it's inaccurate?

 

[Player-1]

Can we discuss Fox? I'm wondering what he's doing out of H tier.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Fox is fast.

 

[Judo777]

Can we discuss Fox? I'm wondering what he's doing out of H tier.

Probably his ability to punish almost any kind of lag with a move that kills everyone in the game at 100....... And his pretty ridiculous frame data and speed. He also has a handful of spectacular moves (usmash, utilt, dair, shine) then a couple of alright ones. (bair, uair, frame 2 jab without alot of hitstun).

 

[Player-1]

He has like impossible MUs against like a fourth of the cast. Gets molested by his fall speed, can't approach at all, bad projectile, worse recovery than falcos, like one good kill move that is super predictable, and all of his kill setups are SDIable

 

[-LzR-]

0/10 too obvious

 

[KuroganeHammer]

He has like impossible MUs against like a fourth of the cast. Gets molested by his fall speed, can't approach at all, bad projectile, worse recovery than falcos, like one good kill move that is super predictable, and all of his kill setups are SDIable

You have described Zelda tbh.

 

[GOofyGV]

Can we discuss Fox? I'm wondering what he's doing out of H tier.

because there are characters worse then him aperantly

 

[Player-1]

Zelda's kill moves at least shield poke. Plus she has one of the best moves in the game: down-b

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Zelda's kill moves at least shield poke. Plus she has one of the best moves in the game: down-b

You're thinking of Melee, bro. Not Brawl.



Smooth Criminal

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Wow i looked at the matchup chart for Ike for the first time, these are like the most optimistic ratings ike could possibly have. Losing to ice climbers by only -1 seems absurd and I could definitely see falco, diddy or pika being worse than -1 for him as well.

Ike's MUs are hardly the most optimistic they could be. A lot of them were compromised for a lower number. Every matchup outside of MK is very manageable, and only Olimar and D3 are really feasible at -2s. Even then, you could almost argue D3 being -1. Pikachu, Snake, Diddy, ICs, G&W, ROB, Kirby, Wario, Kirby, Yoshi, Luigi, Mario, Jigglypuff: they all have arguments for being more in Ike's favor to some degree. Obviously some have better arguments than others, but they are still there.

The MU chart really needs to go to .5s. A good portion of Ike's -1s are not on the same level as other -1s he has.

 

[Ussi]

Wow i looked at the matchup chart for Ike for the first time, these are like the most optimistic ratings ike could possibly have. Losing to ice climbers by only -1 seems absurd and I could definitely see falco, diddy or pika being worse than -1 for him as well.

Dk on the other hand has the most pessimistic ratings possible. When the debate started, 1/3 of the cast tried to change their rating against dk in their favor.

Both characters lose to mk but DK is still better in general against mk, results have proven this. DK does better against snake, marth, gw and lucario while Ike does better against DDD, wario and zss. They both lose solidly against the rest of the top/high tier.

Ike's numbers are lower than what we wanted. Out of the 6 disputed ratios, we only got 1 in our favor. Out of many arguments, Ike had to concede a worse number. DDD we wanted to be -1, but that got lost so we never got a chance to argue that with the DDD's. (Its quite silly what Ike can do with DDD when he's recovering)

 

[Ishiey]

The MU chart really needs to go to .5s. A good portion of Ike's -1s are not on the same level as other -1s he has.

This.

But then there's all this nitpicking and idk, it'd be nice if everyone could actually agree on things but since we can't I doubt it'll ever break down any more than the current 9-point system.

 

[bubbaking]

And idunno my stance on DK. No one around me plays DK, and it seems like he's a good character thats just ***** by his massive size, bad shield, infinites, and the general physics of the game. Kinda like Fox's problems only different, if you know what I mean.

Basically the same problems he had in Melee and, to an extent, 64. Once a bad char, always a bad char...

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yes I did.

You called DK a good character, and then compared him to Fox.
I told you to look at the frame data so that you can see which one is clearly

No, you didnt.

I wasnt comparing DK to Fox at all. I was saying DK is ***** in a similar way to how Fox is, not that they are similar character/frame data wise. I was saying that the main weakness of Fox is that the physics of the game own him due to how light he is and how fast he falls, and DK is owned by the general physics as well. Massive size and weight makes DK easy to juggle, his bad shield allows him to get poked, etc.

So no, you didnt understand what I was saying at all, as I was not comparing the two. I was just saying DK is usually owned by physics more than his weaknesses in his moveset and gave Fox as an example as someone else who has the same type of problems. And just for the record, in case you want to manipulate this to somehow say I think DK is equal or close to Fox, Fox >>>>>> DK. Fox is arguably High Tier (i still think he's only top of mid, but thats not too far off) and imo DK should be top of low mid/bottom of mid mid.

 

[GOofyGV]

could we talk about sheik?
I think she could be a bit higher actualy

 

[Espy Rose]

This.

Sweet mother of god not that.
One of the reasons I enjoy the 1-4 system over the 1-100 one is solely because it AVOIDS those ridiculously precise MU ratios.

I'm reminded of the old Pikachu Match Up Chart. They had decimals.
Decimals.

 

[Cassio]

Pikas know math

Stop being a hater!

 

[Z'zgashi]

Apparently not if he needs a calculator to do the work for him.

 

[Cassio]

Calculators are just cheap secretaries.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So he cant do math AND cant afford a secretary?

Damn.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sweet mother of god not that.
One of the reasons I enjoy the 1-4 system over the 1-100 one is solely because it AVOIDS those ridiculously precise MU ratios.

I'm reminded of the old Pikachu Match Up Chart. They had decimals.
Decimals.

But in return, we get ZERO wiggle room for compromise. I highly doubt that there are many MU disagreements that had numbers with a difference of 2 or more. Even if the .5 could only be chosen by a third party in the process, it would help a bit.

 

[Luigi player]

More precise MU ratios would be much better, but people would never be able to agree to anything...

(it's often really difficult to even agree with the current ratios -_-)

 

[bubbaking]

his results are worse without them but that doesn't make diddy a worse character
diddy is still capable of doing the same stuff.

But without results, a character should drop down the tier list, regardless of how much potential he has. Basically, ADHD/Gnes made us realize Diddy's potential with his results and thus fulfilled both requirements to being top tier. However, with them gone, it's up to someone else to pick up the slack, cuz there's no way we can keep a char in top 3 on theorycrafting alone.

You troll...

You think Will and... the other top dks... are better than San/Ryo and... umm... the other top Ikes?
Ike actually goes to other regions and wins.

But didn't San just admit that he and Ryo don't go to other regions because they are not active?

I seem to remember you posting somewhere a while back (no more than 2 months ago) saying something along the lines of
"ZSS doesn't really seem viable without a secondary cause it seems like she'd do pretty badly against MK, Oli and Falco. Then again I don't really know much about the character and her MUs cause I feel she doesn't get enough exposure"

And then recently I've been seeing things like
"ZSS is ***" (this post) and
"There's no way Pit loses -2 to a character as mediocre as ZSS"

What exactly is making you change your mind about ZSS so quickly o.o

If you ask me, he isn't really changing his mind. He's just relegating 'I don't know much' to 'She's bad.'

Both characters lose to mk but DK is still better in general against mk, results have proven this. DK does better against snake, marth, gw and lucario while Ike does better against DDD, wario and zss. They both lose solidly against the rest of the top/high tier.

I fail to see how a character with a huge disjoint known as a SWORD can do worse against G&W than a char who pretty much extends his hurtbox every time he attacks... Ike outranges G&W with nearly...everything.

He has like impossible MUs against like a fourth of the cast. Gets molested by his fall speed, can't approach at all, bad projectile, worse recovery than falcos, like one good kill move that is super predictable, and all of his kill setups are SDIable

Wait, worse recovery than Falco's? (O_o) Since when? I always thought more distance was a good thing...

You're thinking of Melee, bro. Not Brawl.



Smooth Criminal

It's still the same concept which is why it's the best move. The act of changing every aspect of your being, from the moveset down to the fall speed, to become a much better character is simply the workings of the best move in the game! PT has access to the same move. At any time, Ivy can ascend to Charizard, and Charizard can transcend and become that good character known as......Squirtle.

(Its quite silly what Ike can do with DDD when he's recovering)

It's quite silly what DDD can do with Ike when he's recovering. -2 is fine.

 

[bubbaking]

.........sigh.......I need to work on this....

 

[Neon!]

Ike's numbers are lower than what we wanted. Out of the 6 disputed ratios, we only got 1 in our favor. Out of many arguments, Ike had to concede a worse number. DDD we wanted to be -1, but that got lost so we never got a chance to argue that with the DDD's. (Its quite silly what Ike can do with DDD when he's recovering)

Again, my main problem was Ike's -1 with ice climbers. From my understanding even sopo can cg ike to the edge of the stage, dtilt and cover most of his recovery options with ice blocks.

Nearly the same thing happens with DDD too, DDD though has a better grab range, a cg that works at any %, and a better offstage game. DDD is also one of the few characters who can compete with ike range wise in the air.

I fail to see how a character with a huge disjoint known as a SWORD can do worse against G&W than a char who pretty much extends his hurtbox every time he attacks... Ike outranges G&W with nearly...everything.

DK's bair is more versatile than all of ike's aerials combined in this matchup. It's faster, has comparable range, less landing lag and DK can whip out 2 bairs in one short hop. DK has a faster ground and aerial speed and a better recovery.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I fail to see how a character with a huge disjoint known as a SWORD can do worse against G&W than a char who pretty much extends his hurtbox every time he attacks... Ike outranges G&W with nearly...everything.

Because DK has this actually useful super armor move that Ike only wishes he could have. Range isn't the only important thing in Brawl.

 

[bubbaking]

Alright, I get it now, although I will say that Ike also has moves with super-armor.

 

[Hippieslayer]

DK has more easily landable kill moves than Ike, especially on a light character like GNW.

 

[bubbaking]

I now see how this MU is easier for DK, though I would argue that nearly all of Ike's moves are kill moves.

 

[SinisterB]

In regards to Fox about a page ago, Wolf is a decent character and has better MUs overall, and probably the most important thing around here; results.

I wouldn't mind seeing them make High tier, but if anything, it should be Wolf before Fox imo.

 

[bubbaking]

Def Fox first. His MUs are more noteworthy. For one, Fox at least beats DDD.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I now see how this MU is easier for DK, though I would argue that nearly all of Ike's moves are kill moves.

Well most of his powerful moves are quite slow whereas DK can kill a GnW at surprisingly low percents with his quick stuff like bair, utilt, uair not to mention the punish move that is dsmash and the mutha****en punch.

Also Ike's recovery sux dix and he lacks fast aerials for di aswell as dk's up-brake meaning he can die a lot earlier. GnW dsmash on an Ike that doesnt DI correctly is also hilarious :D