bubbaking
Smash Hero
Everyone loses to MK. Is it really necessary to list him as a reason someone's MU spread might be worse (or for anything for that matter)?
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Official BBR Tier List v6
- Thread starter Shaya
- Start date
- Status
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Well, losing to MK -1 is much better than losing -3, so if that's the case, then it's a very good reason for one character having a better MU spread.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
In that case, Marth only loses to MK -1. 
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317124&page=3
"Recently" as you put it, Marth has won more money than ICs at MK banned tourneys. At MK legal tourneys, he's won more money than than Diddy and Oli. This time, we should not be comparing anyone to MK's winnings. He has 58% of ALL the winnings for heaven's sake!
I like how a bunch of people keep saying that Marth has no recent results, even though I keep citing a chart that specifically says otherwise...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=317124&page=3
"Recently" as you put it, Marth has won more money than ICs at MK banned tourneys. At MK legal tourneys, he's won more money than than Diddy and Oli. This time, we should not be comparing anyone to MK's winnings. He has 58% of ALL the winnings for heaven's sake!
Marth beats him +1, which sounds about right. What's everyone's problem? +1 is almost even... (-_-)
Even though Marth beats Oli and Snake +1, goes even with ICs, and only loses to MK and Diddy -1? (<_<) It doesn't matter if everyone says that Marth's advantageous MUs are optimistic. I'm assuming that if a +1 was written on the charts, then it can at least be agreed that the MU is even-ish.
Unless you mean Yoshi's eggroll... it's not really the greatest Anti-air move to use.
Marth does not beat Olimar at all. It's definitely an even MU, lol. Almost the entirety of the Marth boards, along with Mike (Ramin maybe? idr) agrees on that.
Beating Snake is really commonly argued to be even. It's really hard to call on that one.
Marth/Sonic is almost guaranteed to be even. Without getting into all the theorycraft behind it, looking just as results it actually bodes to being in Sonic's favor. (Go away Espy, it's even.)
Also vs Diddy is even. /unpopular opinion
And yes, +1 means close to even. But look at it from a weighted MU list point of view. Say everyone in top tier's MU number gets multiplied by 5 and then it decreases by 1 for each subsequent tier. For example, IC vs Fox is a +/- 4 MU. IC is in top tier while Fox is in mid tier. Since IC beats a midtier character with the number 4, you multiply that by 3 (the multiplier for midtier) and you get a relevance of +12. Do the same thing to fox and you get a relevance of -20.
Now apply this to Marth. If his +1s on Falco, Snake, and Olimar are +/- 0's, Marth's weighted MU score goes down by 15 points while all the rest go up by 5. This closes the gaps very quickly.
So yes, while +/- 1 does mean "evenish" it can have a huge impact when looking at it with a weighted MU list (which you should be- an unweighted list is practically useless).
Now, with all that out of the way, Marth's MU spread stops being 3rd in the game and likely drops to ~5th. Olimar, IC's, and Diddy may have less money than Marth (MK banned or legal depending on what the case may be), however they consistently place better than Marth when it counts. IC and arguably Diddy have a better MU vs MK. Olimar only has to focus on a few difficult MUs to learn while winning most other MUs solidly. Meanwhile Marth has to know each one of his 14+ even MUs inside and out in order to deal with them. He also has to play perfectly (which is unreasonable to assume and shouldn't be used as reasoning) throughout an entire tournament in order to be considered a threat. Now, which character seems more likely to pose a threat at the later rounds of a tournament (which is what matters)- Marth or Diddy/IC/and Olimar? I'd put money on the latter group each and every time.
MEOW1337KITTEH
Smash Lord
Quick! Everyone make an image of their projected tier list and upload it before v7
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
No, it's just an outdated concept.Being an optimistic Sonic main is an oxymoron.
Luxord
Smash Journeyman
thanks, good set by both - and yeah I'm surprised by how well up+B controls space versus marth
Well for what it's worth I think almost all of Marth's match-ups are floating somewhere between -1 and +1 with the majority of them being just 0:
-1 
[] [] []
0 [] [] [] [] [] [] []
+1 [] [] [] [] /
If they're in [ ] they're somewhere between these numbers.
Marth has a negative record against Kirby / ROB so they might be -1 for him.
He has even records with Diddy, Lucario and Ike so they might be 0.
He has winning records vs ZSS and TL so they might be in his favor.
A lot of them are minimally in his favor but not enough to be called +1. For all intents and purposes these match-ups can be considered even.
It's also my [very subjective] opinion that Marth beats Mario, Bowser, Samus, Ganondorf and Zelda no worse than +2.
-1
[] [] []0 [
] [] [] [] [] [] []+1
[] [] [] [] / If they're in [ ] they're somewhere between these numbers.
Marth has a negative record against Kirby / ROB so they might be -1 for him.
He has even records with Diddy, Lucario and Ike so they might be 0.
He has winning records vs ZSS and TL so they might be in his favor.
A lot of them are minimally in his favor but not enough to be called +1. For all intents and purposes these match-ups can be considered even.
It's also my [very subjective] opinion that Marth beats Mario, Bowser, Samus, Ganondorf and Zelda no worse than +2.
#HBC | Joker
Space Marine
- Joined
- Feb 2, 2012
- Messages
- 3,864
- Location
- St. Clair Shores, Michigan
- NNID
- HBCJoker
- 3DS FC
- 1864-9780-3232
All I can think of is that Marth doesn't have a projectile to force Ganon to approach, so he can do Ganon things and punish super hard when Marth messes up.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Ike is in your list twice Gheb.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
^
Same with a lot of other characters. With brackets he was trying to signify that the MU could be one of two values (eg Ike is 0/+1 for Marth, same with TL, ZSS and Lucario)
Same with a lot of other characters. With brackets he was trying to signify that the MU could be one of two values (eg Ike is 0/+1 for Marth, same with TL, ZSS and Lucario)
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I blame early morning posting for that. I actually checked for other characters and couldn't find any others that had that.
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Wait a sec, Marth vs ICs is even. I agree with pretty much the entirety of CJ's post, but nothing was said about Marth:IC's being worse than 0, and it isn't. Marth is fairly good at seperating the two, especially with sideB. He's also good at maintaining a protective spacing to prevent himself from being grabbed.Well for what it's worth I think almost all of Marth's match-ups are floating somewhere between -1 and +1 with the majority of them being just 0:
-1
0 [
+1
If they're in [ ] they're somewhere between these numbers.
Marth has a negative record against Kirby / ROB so they might be -1 for him.
He has even records with Diddy, Lucario and Ike so they might be 0.
He has winning records vs ZSS and TL so they might be in his favor.
A lot of them are minimally in his favor but not enough to be called +1. For all intents and purposes these match-ups can be considered even.
It's also my [very subjective] opinion that Marth beats Mario, Bowser, Samus, Ganondorf and Zelda no worse than +2.
I don't see why Marth:Kirby is any less than +1 for Marth. Marth outranges Kirby badly and Kirby lacks the speed to disrupt Marth's zoning. On top of that, Kirby's light and dies quickly.
As for Ike, Marth is faster and gimps Ike much more easily. He can mixup between going offstage and gimping high recoveries and simply standing offstage and fsmashing/countering Ike's low recovery. Even if Marth reads wrong and goes offstage when Ike goes low, Marth receives a get-out-of-jail-free card in upB which, in itself, will gimp Ike if he isn't careful. In addition, his sideB can compete with Ike's jab in punishing/beating certain options and catching spot-dodges. Definitely +1 for Marth.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Done quickly, without looking at results/MU chart. Just an imo of how good each character is
God
S:
Top
A:, (/)
B:, , , (/)
High
C: (//), , , (//)
Mid
D:, , , ,
E:, , , , , ,
Low
F:, , , ,
Hyrule:, , ,
Didn't really know where to put Wolf and Pit...and Ike. I know nothing about these guys
God
S:
Top
A:
, (/)B:
, , , (/)High
C: (
//), , , (//)Mid
D:
, , , , E:
, , , , , , Low
F:
, , , , Hyrule:
, , , Didn't really know where to put Wolf and Pit...and Ike. I know nothing about these guys
bubbaking
Smash Hero
It's +3 for Marth, which IMO, is a pretty fair evaluation of the MU. As Private said, there are.....moments when Ganon can punish Marth (hard), but spacing against Ganon is easy so it doesn't happen often.
Also, I don't know too much about Zelda, but Fuujin was arguing earlier that Marth:Zelda should be +4 for Marth. I don't exactly agree with that claim, but I think the current value of +3 is also accurate. I believe Fuujin's reasoning was that Marth can just pen Zelda against the ledge with superior spacing and there isn't anything that Zelda can do about it with her bad mobility.
Holy cow, you put DDD really low... :ODone quickly, without looking at results/MU chart. Just an imo of how good each character is
God
S:
Top
A:
B:
High
C: (
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
Hyrule:
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
SS:
S:
A:
High
B:
C:
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
G:
Now get mad.
S:
A:
High
B:
C:
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
G:
Now get mad.
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
lol @ samus and falcon being above mario. @ V's list
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
And Luigi is dead.Done quickly, without looking at results/MU chart. Just an imo of how good each character is
God
S:
Top
A:
B:
High
C: (
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
Hyrule:
Didn't really know where to put Wolf and Pit...and Ike. I know nothing about these guys
GOofyGV
Smash Lord
this is my opinion I change a lot with my opinion lately but I think this is about right
God
S:
Top
A:,,,
B:,,
,
High
C:,,,,
high/mid
D:,,(these guys can be HT but I don't fee like puting them in HT:$)
Mid
E:,,,
,,
F:,,
,,
Low:
G:,
,
,
,
H:
,,,,
God
S:
Top
A:
,,,B:
,,,High
C:
,,,,high/mid
D:
,,(these guys can be HT but I don't fee like puting them in HT:$)Mid
E:
,,,,,F:
,,,,Low:
G:
,,,,H:
,,,,
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
An Ike made it to brackets at APEX and did decently at the MLGs. He ain't that low, and certainly never below PT or Yoshi.Done quickly, without looking at results/MU chart. Just an imo of how good each character is
God
S:
Top
A:
B:
High
C: (
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
Hyrule:
Didn't really know where to put Wolf and Pit...and Ike. I know nothing about these guys
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Pit doesn't lose to ANY of those guys (except MK and maybe Marth). How is he not high tier?Peach loses -3 to MK, at least -2 to Falco / Snake, -1 to Diddy / Marth / DDD / Wolf, arguably loses to Lucario, Toon Link, Olimar and Fox. How is she high/-mid tier?
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
9/10 great listDone quickly, without looking at results/MU chart. Just an imo of how good each character is
God
S:
Top
A:
B:
High
C: (
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
Hyrule:
Didn't really know where to put Wolf and Pit...and Ike. I know nothing about these guys
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Lol I know nothing about Mario either...but I honestly never understood why Falcon and Samus were so low, so I put them above him.
Well I specifically said that I wasn't looking at results at all so this list is pretty much 100% bias and I don't know why you bothered to bring up results
But anyway, Ike never below Yoshi? coughapexcough
Whoops, good catch. Edited him in.
smashkng
Smash Lord
Ike is certainly not worse than PT or Ness. Ike doesn't have any unwinnables besides maybe MK, though Ike has still some options against him. Falcon IS clearly worse than Mario too. Mario has a much better moveset, better pressuring and safer moves than Falcon and Falcon's moveset isn't good for abusing his mobility. Mario's lack of range is really his only major weakness IMO.
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
It's because they aren't better than the ones above them.
Zelda is worse than Ganondorf.
GOofyGV
Smash Lord
falcon is worse then ganon as well imo and maybe puff
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
I guess I'll throw in my "likely to change within a few days" tier list.
S:
A: ( / ) ( / )
B: ( / ) ( / )
C: ( / )
D:
E: ( / )
F: ( / )
G:
H: ( / )
Yes, I think Snake is underrated. Yes, I think the spacies are overrated. No, I don't care about what happens over in Japan.
S:
A: (
/ ) ( / )B: (
/ ) ( / )C:
( / ) D:
E:
( / ) F:
( / ) G:
H:
( / ) Yes, I think Snake is underrated. Yes, I think the spacies are overrated. No, I don't care about what happens over in Japan.
#HBC | ZoZo
Shocodoro Blagshidect
You're a ****** though so nobody cares : D
Malice Chains
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 18, 2011
- Messages
- 429
lol .
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
Ganon can actually punish stuff from marth and approach well beacause of the lack of a projectile.
Wolf and Peach are too high (Especially Wolf). Wolf should be mid tier. He has too poor matchups against important characters like Wario and D3.Done quickly, without looking at results/MU chart. Just an imo of how good each character is
God
S:
Top
A:
B:
High
C: (
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
Hyrule:
Didn't really know where to put Wolf and Pit...and Ike. I know nothing about these guys
Peach should be like the lowest high tier.
Mario should be top of low tier and Lucas should be there too.
Zelda and Ganon should be in a tier of their own and Link and Puff should be in F tier.
Better than infinites. I like how you put Fox over D3.SS:
S:
A:
High
B:
C:
Mid
D:
E:
Low
F:
G:
Now get mad.
Fox seems to get underrated just because a few characters have some grab or lock gimmick on him but in reality he can be a good character (Similar to Falco).
Also Climbers shouldn't be in the same tier as mk.
Fox and Peach should be high and Wolf should be mid.this is my opinion I change a lot with my opinion lately but I think this is about right
God
S:
Top
A:
B:
High
C:
high/mid
D:
Mid
E:
F:
Low:
G:
H:
Zelda is probably slightly better because of King Dedede.
Here's my tier list:
God:
S:
Top:
A:
B:
High:
C:
D:
Middle:
E:
F:
G:
Low:
H:
I:
Bottom:
J:
bubbaking
Smash Hero
Speaking of Ganon, here's a simple Q: if Sheik beats Ganon +4, why isn't ZSS vs Ganon a +4?
- Status