Official BBR Tier List v6

[Linkshot]

That should hold true for vanilla, too. I don't recall there being any frame speed mods on them (and definitely no super armor). It's the fact his arm starts in the Z-Axis that would avoid the blizzard.

 

[bubbaking]

Fox doesn't lose to Kirby or Marth. But then again few characters actually do ...

Few characters lose to Marth, the character with one of the best MU spreads in the game? (O_o)

This. Some people may throw a hissy fit, but in the end they just have to accept that character mains know how tough their MUs are better than those who don't main said character.

I already mentioned this in a previous post, but the problem comes from two sides of the MU. If you're a D3 player, I'm a Diddy player, and you think that the MU between us is an easy -1 for you, I can say, "No, from my POV, this MU is definitely a +2 (and thus a -2 for you)." In the end, the MU value has to be a compromise. You can't just be like, "Well, I'm the D3 main, so you can't know how tough my MUs are," cuz in the end, that MU is also one of my MUs.

I really don't see how Fox doesn't lose to Marth tbh :x can someone walk me through this? Doesn't Marth's superior range/disjoints make it tough for Fox to get in the range where he can actually do things, along with the typical stuff Marth has on the spacies giving him more of an edge?

Well, it's a -1 for Fox, meaning fairly even, but I'd say it's because Fox's speed lets him punish Marth's mistakes a little more easily than some other chars. As someone else mentioned, Marth can be baited and Fox can probably get into his space and do that better than a lot of other chars. Also, Marth has range/disjoint, but his moves aren't the fastest, cooldown-wise. Someone as fast as Fox can probably punish laggy moves easily.

Marth has superior range and disjoints vs:

Falco
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
~Wolf
~Kirby
~ROB
~Sonic

And he wins none of those match-ups. He also doesn't lose to ZSS, Lucario, GW, Peach, DK and Ike yet the reasons they are even / in Marth's favor is not "superior range and disjoints".
The whole "Marth has a sword, big range and disjoints therefore he beats X" has become kinda bogus tbh.
Edit: That's 14 characters - more than half of the cast where his "superior range and disjoints" don't give him an advantage ... and I didn't even include Fox himself on that list.

People need to find new arguments on why Marth is supposed to be as good as he is, especially since results kind of fail to back it up. Char is deffo not top 5 material.

Marth beats Fox, Falco, Kirby, Sonic, Lucario, Peach, and Ike, and he beats G&W quite soundly. Range and disjoint is probably a big reason why he beats Kirby, Sonic, Lucario, and Watch. Going by MU spreads alone, Marth is top 3 material. Of course, you're right that placings fail to back that (top 3) up, but going by winnings (gosh, I've said this so many times), Marth has the 4th most money for this year so far. Now, he may not be beating a lot of notable players, but that doesn't mean he should be moved out of top tier.

 

[smashkng]

Marth's Fair isn't that easily baited and punished if used smartly. It has barely any landing lag. Also Marth's fast start-up on his Fair makes him hard to pressure. Marth when used well is definitely top 6, but he can't afford to misspace, because a tiny bit of that separates Marth between being unpunishable and easily punished when his Nair or Fair gets shielded.

 

[bubbaking]

Fox can lasercamp, tho, forcing Marth to approach and possibly enter Fox's game.

 

[C.J.]

Marth beats Fox, Falco, Kirby, Sonic, Lucario, Peach, and Ike, and he beats G&W quite soundly. Range and disjoint is probably a big reason why he beats Kirby, Sonic, Lucario, and Watch. Going by MU spreads alone, Marth is top 3 material. Of course, you're right that placings fail to back that (top 3) up, but going by winnings (gosh, I've said this so many times), Marth has the 4th most money for this year so far. Now, he may not be beating a lot of notable players, but that doesn't mean he should be moved out of top tier.

Marth is even vs Fox, Falco, Sonic, and probably Lucario. Arguably vs Kirby too. The MU chart is pretty optimistic for Marth's MUs... Marth probably has more even MUs than every other character tbh.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bubba, I stopped reading your post when you said Marth has a top 3 match-up spread.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sonic beats or goes even with a lot of characters, honestly, Marth being one of the many that Sonic goes even with.
Sonics suck at debating, and everyone else sucks at understanding Sonic. That's why his MU Chart looks like complete trash.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Bubba, I stopped reading your post when you said Marth has a top 3 match-up spread.

holy ****, 100% mindgamed me, with that avi I thought you were Doc King.

 

[Kuro~]

holy ****, 100% mindgamed me, with that avi I thought you were Doc King.

lmao ya he got me with that to. I even read the username as Doc King at first XD...

 

[GOofyGV]

well mu wise idk which 3 characters have the best one.

I mean you can say Olimar because he has a lot of +4's and +3's but that is mostly vs garbage characters that don't excist basicly.
I mean why should a +4 on ganon make any sence?
in the other hand he still gets beaten by IC,falco and mk (mu chart says he lose from marth as well)
he doe defeat Pikachu,snake in top tier.

diddy doesn't **** most low tiers(but who cares?) as much as IC and oli do. He does beat pikachu and maybe marth in top tier.
but he only loses from mk and snake.

IC also **** a few low tiers they lose from mk,(snake?) Zss,TL,Peach which are not that commen
they defeat pikachu,Olimar and falco in top tier.
so I should say they are in top 3 best mu spreads in brawl.

Marth doesn't **** low tiers(those mu's aren't commen anyway) as much as IC and Olimar do. He loses from Diddy,D3 and mk.
he does beat wario,pikachu and snake in top tier.

snake doesn't **** low tiers as much as olimar and IC.Loses from marth,d3,pikachu,mk and Olimar.
and defeats diddy,(IC) in top tiers

 

[Espy Rose]

Which 3 Characters have the best spreads?

Meta Knight, his downB, and Mach Tornado.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

holy ****, 100% mindgamed me, with that avi I thought you were Doc King.

Same.

Maybe they're really the same person...

 

[Seagull Joe]

Gheb mind ***** me with his change in avatar and widgets. I thought he was Doc King. Da ****.

 

[Orion*]

Marth is even vs Fox, Falco, Sonic, and probably Lucario. Arguably vs Kirby too. The MU chart is pretty optimistic for Marth's MUs... Marth probably has more even MUs than every other character tbh.

Marth is relatively even with the spacies, and the better player usually wins, but I think he gets a slight advantage over the fact that sometimes he will and does get a solid gimp read or setup and theres not much the space animal can do about it at that point.

I don't see how Sonic is supposed to kill marth if he just decides to play super safe and passive aggressive.

 

[Espy Rose]

I don't see how Marth is supposed to catch Sonic.
Ever.

Not that he needs it. Time after time has shown that at the top level, Marths lose to Sonics.

 

[Tesh]

But Marth is so good, you just have to work hard and space perfectly and he beat all the mid tiers no matter what.


Honestly every time I read people defending Marth its the same story. All the talk about using options perfectly and spacing perfectly and always doing the right thing is just so silly. It would be like playing ICs, except if you want a strong punish you need to powershield everything, tipper your grab and even when you do it right, you only get like 20-40 damage+ edgeguarding.

Yea Marth has options and answers for pretty much everything, but I don't see him in line with the truly amazing characters in the game. The ones that don't just have answers to things, they have rock solid solutions to things and don't live in the realm of "extremely small margin of error".

I think Marth should be right above Lucario, but I'm not sure if Wario should be so high to be above him.

 

[Seagull Joe]

vs is even.

 

[Z'zgashi]

you just have to work hard and space perfectly

Thats just it. Take into account that human beings arent perfect and will always make at least a few errors, then add in the fact that its Sonic you're spacing against, and it's no wonder people have problems. While sure, perfect spacing would **** mid tiers, no one is EVER going to have perfect spacing due to human error and reaction time.

 

[Luxord]

My only problem with Marth is that even though his MU spread is AMAZING it is based off of perfect play essentially. If every character could be played perfectly with spacing and whatnot (excluding TAS-only impossible-SDI in which case idk tier list) then yeah marth is at his spot.

HOWEVER very few marth's can do it, and i mean close to perfect. The matchup chart was built for high level play, not perfect. Marth's who can consistently powershield practically any attack have SO many more OOS options available for punishes f-smash, utilt, nair, even usmash although not too practical. And reading airdodges with close to frame perfection isn't easy either. Same with grab release to dair - which MANY top level marth's still can't do perfectly.

If the next tier list is going to truly be for super super top level (the highest of the top level players) then yeah marth should be where he is, otherwise I don't believe so

 

[zmx]

Going by results Marth still shouldn't be where he is when you take a look at MK, Olimar, Icys, Snake, Diddy results recently especially at nationals. There is no comparison whatsoever.

"Super super top level" Marths mess up technical stuff all the time as well.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I don't see how Marth is supposed to kill sonic if he just decides to play super safe and passive aggressive.

its funny because I bet most people wont even notice when they read it the first time.

 

[Espy Rose]

Wait guys, never mind. I'm being dumb. Sonic loses to Marth -5. He has hitboxes and can grab.

 

[Sunnysunny]

He can grab, AND THEN HIT YOU WITH A HITBOX AFTERWARDS!
-10 for sure.

Real talk though. I don't know squat about sonic. Does marth seriously lose to him?! Thats nuts.

 

[Neon!]

vs is even.

 

[Espy Rose]

Marth doesn't lose to him, Sunny.
He just doesn't win against him either.

 

[Linkshot]

Marth doesn't lose to him, Sunny.
He just doesn't win against him either.

He times him out, like every other Sonic matchup.

 

[C.J.]

Marth is relatively even with the spacies, and the better player usually wins, but I think he gets a slight advantage over the fact that sometimes he will and does get a solid gimp read or setup and theres not much the space animal can do about it at that point.

The MU itself is even. IMO it being even/+1 Marth's advantage comes down entirely to how much weight you give his CG->spike nonsense.

I don't see how Marth is supposed to catch Sonic.
Ever.

Not that he needs it. Time after time has shown that at the top level, Marths lose to Sonics.

Sonic is gay.

Honestly every time I read people defending Marth its the same story. All the talk about using options perfectly and spacing perfectly and always doing the right thing is just so silly. It would be like playing ICs, except if you want a strong punish you need to powershield everything, tipper your grab and even when you do it right, you only get like 20-40 damage+ edgeguarding.

Yea Marth has options and answers for pretty much everything, but I don't see him in line with the truly amazing characters in the game. The ones that don't just have answers to things, they have rock solid solutions to things and don't live in the realm of "extremely small margin of error".

I think Marth should be right above Lucario, but I'm not sure if Wario should be so high to be above him.

While I agree with the first part of what you said, Marth is still better than ZSS/Lucario/DDD/Wario. Pika/Falco [depending on how much you weigh his awful MUs and "results" (going by John#'s chart) into his position] and if you're super anti-Snake (which is a silly POV imo) are much harder to place around Marth. It's easy to argue that group anyway you want. Olimar, Diddy, IC, MK, and Snake (if you're not silly) are better than Marth though.
NEO said it best: If you're Marth and guess right, you look amazing and like a genius player. If you guess wrong, everyone wonders why the hell you chose that option.

vs is even.

Obviously.

My only problem with Marth is that even though his MU spread is AMAZING it is based off of perfect play essentially. If every character could be played perfectly with spacing and whatnot (excluding TAS-only impossible-SDI in which case idk tier list) then yeah marth is at his spot.

HOWEVER very few marth's can do it, and i mean close to perfect. The matchup chart was built for high level play, not perfect. Marth's who can consistently powershield practically any attack have SO many more OOS options available for punishes f-smash, utilt, nair, even usmash although not too practical. And reading airdodges with close to frame perfection isn't easy either. Same with grab release to dair - which MANY top level marth's still can't do perfectly.

If the next tier list is going to truly be for super super top level (the highest of the top level players) then yeah marth should be where he is, otherwise I don't believe so

All of this seems to assume like the other character won't be moving/is throwing out hella predictable attacks tbh. Marth gets hurt so much by quick characters on the ground disrupting his zoning.

Going by results Marth still shouldn't be where he is when you take a look at MK, Olimar, Icys, Snake, Diddy results recently especially at nationals. There is no comparison whatsoever.

I wouldn't say that results (in America at least) show that there's "no comparison" between Marth and IC. The rest absolutely, but IC is fairly volatile placings wise in America. They're better than Marth, I'm not saying otherwise. Just that it's closer than you imply.

Wait guys, never mind. I'm being dumb. Sonic loses to Marth -5. He has hitboxes and can grab.

I hate that joke. So old.

vs is even.

Obviously.

 

[Espy Rose]

It only lasts as long as the ignorance behind its birth, CJ.

 

[Tesh]

Tbh I really think having like 30 losable matchups (Marth) and no unwinnables is worse than having like 20 easy as pie matchups and a couple of "tough" matchups. Just looking at the practicality of it and remembering that we are talking about humans, its tough to know the ins and outs of almost every matchup for your character to be able to compete with top...everything in bracket.

I feel like its alot easier to focus in on a small pool of matchups that might give you trouble (like falco/olimar/snake) and not have to worry about putting so much effort into how to fight Sonic/DK/ROB/Yoshi etc. A seasoned Falco might be able to get away with not knowing every trick these bad characters might be plotting because he just wrecks them anyway.

How many times do we see a top Marth that might be able to deal with top Snakes/Olis/MKs get knocked out by one of dozens of even matchups?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I would like to give all my internets to gheb

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Thanks <3

 

[Luxord]

Why is Marth only +1 over Yoshi, I'm not versed in the MU at all and haven't actually seen ANY vids either, anyone wanna clear it up? I feel as though it should be +2 based on just how well they can space.

EDIT: Is it the difficulty to kill him like in the D3 MU?

 

[Laem]

vs is even.

Go away.

vs is even.

You too.

Sonic's record vs Marth is pretty interesting xD

 

[| Big D |]

Why is Marth only +1 over Yoshi, I'm not versed in the MU at all and haven't actually seen ANY vids either, anyone wanna clear it up? I feel as though it should be +2 based on just how well they can space.

EDIT: Is it the difficulty to kill him like in the D3 MU?

Here is a vid and you can see for yourself

 

[C.J.]

Why is Marth only +1 over Yoshi, I'm not versed in the MU at all and haven't actually seen ANY vids either, anyone wanna clear it up? I feel as though it should be +2 based on just how well they can space.

EDIT: Is it the difficulty to kill him like in the D3 MU?

Really homo projectile, a usmash that works like an anti-air (stupid invincible nose), amazing mobility, an amazing command grab that also gets him out of juggle traps, he weighs 8 million kgs, broken spotdodge.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Mainly Yoshi's mobility, projectile, great anti air, high weight, and yoshi's great grabs.

 

[| Big D |]

A good yoshi is a pain to play.

 

[bubbaking]

Bubba, I stopped reading your post when you said Marth has a top 3 match-up spread.

Like I've said before, I like to quote my claims off of the actual charts we have posted on these forums for our benefit.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=13863367#post13863367
You'll notice that if you ignore MK, Marth's the third from the top. Problem?

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi too good

 

[C.J.]

1) That's not weighted.
2) Marth's MUs are highly optimistic.