Official BBR Tier List v6

[Hippieslayer]

Def Fox first. His MUs are more noteworthy. For one, Fox at least beats DDD.

I wouldn't say def even though I kind of agree with you. Imo Fox is just a really really hard character to play meaning there are few players who can use him to his fullest potential which in turn means that his placement on the tier list kind of has to be partly based on speculation.

 

[Espy Rose]

But in return, we get ZERO wiggle room for compromise. I highly doubt that there are many MU disagreements that had numbers with a difference of 2 or more. Even if the .5 could only be chosen by a third party in the process, it would help a bit.

That lack of wiggle room is WHY I like the new system so much.
It helps to generalize/organize the match ups into nice subgroups.

I personally would rather use them like that, and then shuffle the MUs in each group around in terms of which is the "hardest" MU in that number, or something to that accord.

It's the same thing as using 5's, more or less, but it's just more neat looking, and on the whole, it still functions as an easier-to-agree on solution when it comes to MU conflict. Decimals and fives don't work out so well in the same situation by comparison.

 

[Ishiey]

Again, my main problem was Ike's -1 with ice climbers. From my understanding even sopo can cg ike to the edge of the stage, dtilt and cover most of his recovery options with ice blocks.

Nearly the same thing happens with DDD too, DDD though has a better grab range, a cg that works at any %, and a better offstage game. DDD is also one of the few characters who can compete with ike range wise in the air.



DK's bair is more versatile than all of ike's aerials combined in this matchup. It's faster, has comparable range, less landing lag and DK can whip out 2 bairs in one short hop. DK has a faster ground and aerial speed and a better recovery.

*sigh*... you're really seeing this MU through a very limited perspective. Just, please, stop and think about it for a second. I don't mean to sound rude, but what do you even know about Ike? Because you're definitely leaving out a huge part of the picture, namely everything that Ike can do to ICs.

Honestly, two bairs in one SH is not a real selling point... this isn't '08, so to speak. I also don't understand why you necessarily think DK's recovery is better than Ike's, but I can't disagree or don't have the MU knowledge to disagree with anything else you said.

In regards to Fox about a page ago, Wolf is a decent character and has better MUs overall, and probably the most important thing around here; results.

I wouldn't mind seeing them make High tier, but if anything, it should be Wolf before Fox imo.

I agree with Wolf > Fox, but no way either of them are high tier :x imo there should be another tier in between high and mid, which would be perfect for such characters that are not able to compete as well as the high tiers but still a cut above the rest of mid.

EDIT: Agreed with Espy that it's a lot simpler/conflict-free to just order your MU spreads with the current system.

 

[SinisterB]

Def Fox first. His MUs are more noteworthy. For one, Fox at least beats DDD.

Fox loses hard to ICs, Pika, and Sheik. The former being top threats in today's metagame.

While DDD is an obstacle, Wolf goes fairly even with most of top tier (ICs, Marth, Falco, Diddy, Olimar, & Snake (-1)). Pika is an overrated -2 that most Wolf's would agree isn't so bad, the CG is a pain but it can be avoided with things like Platform camping, Counterpicks, ect ect. I personally believe Wario isn't as bad for Wolf as most say, if we were to include .5s like it was discussed earlier, i'd probably call the MU a -1.5 for Wolf. That one's opinion though.

With the whole "few players can use Fox effectively" statement, that's true to an extent and I do agree, but Wolf is a very underdevoloped character and has lot's of potential that's only just starting to come out. Wolf consistantly pulls in results (See: Kain @ Vengeance), and has always been a character who could hold his own. His main drawback is what Ish was talking about I don't know how many pages ago, he doesn't really beat any top threats. On the flipside, he doesn't lose to them either, and going even with two of the most predominate threats (ICs & Olimar) only helps his case. I'm not saying Wolf is game-breaking or anything, but he's worked for a High tier spot and compared to his Mid tier brethren I think he deserves it the most.

Seagull may want him to stay Mid so he can **** Mid tier events, but I believe Wolf has it in him to make High. I wouldn't mind King of Mid tier though, for stated reasons.




EDIT

A tier between high and mid probably would be perfect, Ish.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Have you ever watched a good Ike, ie Ryo against IC?

It's dumb.
It's not easy at all for IC to get the grab, and if Ike grabs nana, bthrow to DA, gives a free spike.

 

[bubbaking]

Pika is an overrated -2 that most Wolf's would agree isn't so bad, the CG is a pain but it can be avoided with things like Platform camping, Counterpicks, ect ect.

Can't the same things be said for Fox?

 

[Neon!]

*sigh*... you're really seeing this MU through a very limited perspective. Just, please, stop and think about it for a second. I don't mean to sound rude, but what do you even know about Ike? Because you're definitely leaving out a huge part of the picture, namely everything that Ike can do to ICs.

Honestly, two bairs in one SH is not a real selling point... this isn't '08, so to speak. I also don't understand why you necessarily think DK's recovery is better than Ike's, but I can't disagree or don't have the MU knowledge to disagree with anything else you said.

DK's double bair out of SH is one of many reasons why his aerial game is more flexible than ike's. I listed 3 ways that DK's aerial game is more flexible so dont point out one and say its irrelevant. The fact that we can whip out that second bair allows us to SH bair while rising, drift away or towards the opponent to bait an action than punish accordingly with the 2nd bair.

Ike and DK both destroy IC's when they're seperated just like everyone else. DK can bair nana offstage multiple times and hit her with one of his 3 spikes and he can kill nana around 40% with 9 wind. 9 wind kills much faster than any of ike's (uncharged) smashes, can be used in the air and comes out faster. What can ike do to nana?

DK's recovery is much faster than ikes, can be stalled for a longer period of time and allows him to recover multiple times after losing his second jump, unlike Ike.

 

[SinisterB]

Can't the same things be said for Fox?

lol. I guess so.

Wolf can actually effectively zone Pika with Bair & Blaster though, among other things.

Look at it this way, if we're to ignore the controversy there was over v and assume it's -3, that still gives Wolf a better MU spread overall. And results. Fox has three (four if you count Sheilda) match-ups that are all just as tough to deal with, two of them becoming more and more common. DDD will always be downright terrible for Wolf, and I have one (the others are inactive) in my region, but how often do you plan on seeing a DDD compared to ICs?

We're getting into theory-craft here a little bit, but re-read my post for other points.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What can DK do against ICs blizzards? Ike can actually just manage to poke through the blizzards with Fair and he can gamble with Counter to knock one of them away and disrupt their wall. I can't think of much for DK due to not having much in the way of disjoints. That would make DK's bair less relevant if it loses to Blizzard consistently.

Ike can recover after losing his second jump if he was using aether in the first place.

I'd also say that overall Ike can handle the ICs better in a neutral ground position than DK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DK's best option would be to Up B away, which just resets the situation, while Ike can actually use his amazing jab game to get some damage in, possibly separate the two by going into bthrow -> dash attack.

As for what Ike can do to Nana: just about everything. Jab her a bunch, chuck her off stage than hit her with Dtilt, Dair, or walk-off Fair, hit her with Usmash or Utilt: when she's separated she should be dead.

 

[Cassio]

Wolf has better results in general, but at top level Id definitely give it to Fox. Theyre both great, but my nod goes to Fox.

Not to say that I disagree with their placements, but Ness, Ike, Sonic, Wolf, and Fox (perhaps falco soon too) will likely always be placed deceptively low.

 

[SinisterB]

Yeah pretty much.

While i'd like to see Wolf over Fox, in the end it doesn't really matter. It's not like a tier placement is going to totally influence my playstyle or something. I mean it could lead to character development due to more interest, but eh.

I still think Wolf could manage in High tier though.

 

[Kuro~]

Ike can also pull the fsmash a returning nana.

 

[Ussi]

You mention fine points for DK and all..

But Ike's jab don't care

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That lack of wiggle room is WHY I like the new system so much.
It helps to generalize/organize the match ups into nice subgroups.

I personally would rather use them like that, and then shuffle the MUs in each group around in terms of which is the "hardest" MU in that number, or something to that accord.

It's the same thing as using 5's, more or less, but it's just more neat looking, and on the whole, it still functions as an easier-to-agree on solution when it comes to MU conflict. Decimals and fives don't work out so well in the same situation by comparison.

Forgot to add this last time:

So instead of a single compromise...you want everyone to be fighting over other characters' MU lists going "But we're the hardest -1 for them, not so-and-so!" That just creates more options for arguing and is overall less agreeable because you want to go so precise it's down to ordering within a number. @_@

 

[Seagull Joe]

, , and all beat too...

 

[Chuee]

Fox loses hard to ICs, Pika, and Sheik. The former being top threats in today's metagame.

ICs maybe, but the only top Pikachu's are ESAM and Z really.

Pika is an overrated -2 that most Wolf's would agree isn't so bad, the CG is a pain but it can be avoided with things like Platform camping, Counterpicks, ect ect.

I don't see it being -2, especially if they use footstool out of the CG.

I personally believe Wario isn't as bad for Wolf as most say, if we were to include .5s like it was discussed earlier, i'd probably call the MU a -1.5 for Wolf. That one's opinion though.

Not with the CG, but most Wario's don't even know it for some reason...

With the whole "few players can use Fox effectively" statement, that's true to an extent and I do agree, but Wolf is a very underdevoloped character and has lot's of potential that's only just starting to come out. Wolf consistantly pulls in results (See: Kain @ Vengeance),

Kain's been getting results like that for awhile now.

Fox has three (four if you count Sheilda) match-ups that are all just as tough to deal with

Sheilda isn't a MU. Any sheik that knew the lock would be an idiot to even use Zelda at all in that MU.

, , and all beat too...

Olimar maybe, but Marth and Kirby are probably even.

 

[Espy Rose]

Forgot to add this last time:

So instead of a single compromise...you want everyone to be fighting over other characters' MU lists going "But we're the hardest -1 for them, not so-and-so!" That just creates more options for arguing and is overall less agreeable because you want to go so precise it's down to ordering within a number. @_@

Why in the heck would you let the OTHER character dictate which of YOUR matches are more difficult for YOU?
Loopy world you live in.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I never said dictate, just that everyone would be complaining more regardless.

That, and there would be a lot more in fighting within mains of a character than there is already.

 

[Espy Rose]

There wouldn't be more complaining.
It'd just be kept to the players of that character.

This system effectively reduces the amount of arguing by one entire forum.

 

[SinisterB]

ICs maybe, but the only top Pikachu's are ESAM and Z really.

I don't see it being -2, especially if they use footstool out of the CG.

Pika is definitely a harder -3 for Fox than Wolf, was my point.

Not with the CG, but most Wario's don't even know it for some reason...

Nah, the percent is pretty strict and the characters are both built around playing footies. Wolf's entire meta is based around not getting grabbed, due to being so gayed by them. I play with a Wario who can consistently CG.

Kain's been getting results like that for awhile now.

No kidding. That was just for the sake of linking a source, it'd be pretty silly to say he's been getting results and leave it up to him to do the searching. Granted it was but one Tourney, it was very recent and a great placing.

Sheilda isn't a MU. Any sheik that knew the lock would be an idiot to even use Zelda at all in that MU.

Of course it's not. However, that doesn't change the fact it's listed and if someone feels it should be counted, then it should be counted. Zelda mains exist, you know.

Olimar maybe, but Marth and Kirby are probably even.

I can agree with this, but Wolf still has a better spread.


I actually use a little bit of Fox here and there, it definitely makes my life easier going Fox over Wolf against DDD, after all. I'm not just pulling stuff out of my ***, i've put time into the character and while he may not see a lot of usage these days, i'd still feel comfortable whipping out some Fox in tourney. I keep him up to par via daily Training Mode and smashfests.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There wouldn't be more complaining.
It'd just be kept to the players of that character.

This system effectively reduces the amount of arguing by one entire forum.

You're claiming that there wouldn't be the possibility of, say for example pull out of nowhere...DK mains seeing that D3 has rated Bowser as a less of a curbstomp than DK, and then complaining that D3 can't destroy DK as easily as Bowser thus they should switch the positions within -4 around?

 

[Neon!]

What can DK do against ICs blizzards? Ike can actually just manage to poke through the blizzards with Fair and he can gamble with Counter to knock one of them away and disrupt their wall. I can't think of much for DK due to not having much in the way of disjoints. That would make DK's bair less relevant if it loses to Blizzard consistently.

Ike can recover after losing his second jump if he was using aether in the first place.

I'd also say that overall Ike can handle the ICs better in a neutral ground position than DK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DK's best option would be to Up B away, which just resets the situation, while Ike can actually use his amazing jab game to get some damage in, possibly separate the two by going into bthrow -> dash attack.

As for what Ike can do to Nana: just about everything. Jab her a bunch, chuck her off stage than hit her with Dtilt, Dair, or walk-off Fair, hit her with Usmash or Utilt: when she's separated she should be dead.

Ike cant just poke through blizzards with fair, if IC's are desyncing the blizzards correctly Ike can hit one of the climbers but the other can run up and grab him during the many frames of landing lag that ike has from fair.

DK can combat with blizzard with ground pound which I would argue is generally safer though less versatile than ike's fair.

Both characters have decent ground games against IC, Ike has jab mixups while dk has better range with dtilt, down-b and fully charged punch.

DK's recovery is significantly better than Ikes for reasons I already mentioned. DK's up-b and horizontal air speed in general is faster, he can stall with side-b and his up-b can be stalled as well.

 

[DeLux]

They are both bad MU's, but Ike is slightly harder than DK imo for ICs

 

[Neon!]

They are both bad MU's, but Ike is slightly harder than DK imo for ICs

I know in the past you've struggled with Ripple's DK, what Ike's have you played? What do you think the ratios are for these characters?

 

[DeLux]

I've struggled with Ripples DK? He beat me in one set where I was winning on RC but then lost because of stage knowledge/it's ICs on RC, followed by game three where I SD'd and had my shield broken. The other two sets I won, including our deciding MU deciding match where I low two stocked him both games. It wasn't so much that I "struggled" as I didn't know the MU at all (compared to Ripple playing many more ICs than I have DKs) and just played with my generic gameplan for MU's I don't know in the slightest (also known as pray to god my opponent is bad or their character is bad)

The Ike I've played was Mr. Doom.

I think they are both +2 MU's for ICs. Maybe Ike is +1 since my MU knowledge is a little outdated. Both have problems with Ice Shot by a lot.

 

[bubbaking]

DDD will always be downright terrible for Wolf, and I have one (the others are inactive) in my region, but how often do you plan on seeing a DDD compared to ICs?

Weeeellll....I main DDD, so I plan on "seeing" him a lot more than ICs.

Sheilda isn't a MU. Any sheik that knew the lock would be an idiot to even use Zelda at all in that MU.

As a rule, Sheilda can have no MU worse than Sheik or Zelda.

Why in the heck would you let the OTHER character dictate which of YOUR matches are more difficult for YOU?
Loopy world you live in.

Actually, that's how the MU chart has to be made. You need both sides of the MU to give their input before you can come up with a value on the MU chart. So yes, other players will say "I'm a harder -1," because they're supposed to. This thread isn't for creating character-specific MU charts. We're trying to forge a MU chart that displays one value per MU.

Edit: In other words, if it says on the D3 MU spread that Bowser is easier to beat than DK. Than that same info should be reflected in DK's and Bowser's MU spreads somehow.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox doesn't lose to Kirby or Marth. But then again few characters actually do ...

 

[Vinylic.]

Kirby and fox is most likely to be even.

No doubt. Otherwise, I should have more experince with my main and just have an easier time determining it.


Or, watch videos.

 

[Ishiey]

I agree with basically everything Sinister said on Wolf. Actually going even-ish with next to all of top tier is pretty useful :3 Wario isn't that bad even against someone who's got the CG down properly since Wolf does a pretty good job of keeping Wario out, very manageable for a -2. Pikachu, idk, don't want to say anything since it's a relatively underexplored MU at high levels, but I'd like to say it's halfway between Wario and D3 in difficulty.

DK's double bair out of SH is one of many reasons why his aerial game is more flexible than ike's. I listed 3 ways that DK's aerial game is more flexible so dont point out one and say its irrelevant. The fact that we can whip out that second bair allows us to SH bair while rising, drift away or towards the opponent to bait an action than punish accordingly with the 2nd bair.

Ike and DK both destroy IC's when they're seperated just like everyone else. DK can bair nana offstage multiple times and hit her with one of his 3 spikes and he can kill nana around 40% with 9 wind. 9 wind kills much faster than any of ike's (uncharged) smashes, can be used in the air and comes out faster. What can ike do to nana?

DK's recovery is much faster than ikes, can be stalled for a longer period of time and allows him to recover multiple times after losing his second jump, unlike Ike.

To be honest I just wanted an actual response from you lol, which you've provided, thank you. But yeah, double aerials are in general not that great, I guess that's all I wanted to say with that. Never said it was irrelevant, overrated would be more accurate.

Ike can bthrow > dash attack one of the ICs off-stage, then proceed to maul whichever one he prefers. Or everything else people have already said, I think the Ike mains can take care of it from here. How often do you really have a 9-wind waiting around though? How does DK find the time to charge it with desynched IBs to cover the ground and uair to decimate you in the air?

Not to say that I disagree with their placements, but Ness, Ike, Sonic, Wolf, and Fox (perhaps falco soon too) will likely always be placed deceptively low.

Why is that?

Why in the heck would you let the OTHER character dictate which of YOUR matches are more difficult for YOU?
Loopy world you live in.

This. Some people may throw a hissy fit, but in the end they just have to accept that character mains know how tough their MUs are better than those who don't main said character.

Fox doesn't lose to Kirby or Marth. But then again few characters actually do ...

I really don't see how Fox doesn't lose to Marth tbh :x can someone walk me through this? Doesn't Marth's superior range/disjoints make it tough for Fox to get in the range where he can actually do things, along with the typical stuff Marth has on the spacies giving him more of an edge?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Will /Nairo are comparable to San/ Ryo. After that there is a significant drop in skill level for both characters. If Cable and Dr. Grandpa still played DK's would easily be on top.

But dr. g does still play

http://esfiworld.com/feature/yata-excels-despite-hearing-impairment

 

[| Big D |]

You can start the cg on Wolf anywhere from 67% - 127% and it goes to 180%

Assuming they know to shine before 67%.

 

[Ishiey]

Are you sure? I thought it was guaranteed starting at 59% :x

 

[| Big D |]

You may be right, IIRC it was 64-67. I would test but you can CG at 0 unless they shine

Still, don't underestimate the cg, I've beaten many Falcos just because I can actually land it consistently, it's a huge comeback factor especially after low percent combos.

 

[SinisterB]

It's not so much underestimated as it is breathing room, compared to our other "don't get grabbed" MUs.

Wario's got advantage and he always will, thanks to that trusty CG. Wolf can hold his own though, especially on stages that aren't FD.

Blaster, Flash, and great item control go a long way.

 

[Kite0692]

When the next tier list is supossed to be released?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth has superior range and disjoints vs:

Falco
Diddy Kong
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
~Wolf
~Kirby
~ROB
~Sonic

And he wins none of those match-ups. He also doesn't lose to ZSS, Lucario, GW, Peach, DK and Ike yet the reasons they are even / in Marth's favor is not "superior range and disjoints".
The whole "Marth has a sword, big range and disjoints therefore he beats X" has become kinda bogus tbh.
Edit: That's 14 characters - more than half of the cast where his "superior range and disjoints" don't give him an advantage ... and I didn't even include Fox himself on that list.

People need to find new arguments on why Marth is supposed to be as good as he is, especially since results kind of fail to back it up. Char is deffo not top 5 material.

 

[GOofyGV]

marth still has amazing frame data and an great mobility
he has an amzaing grab game and he can gimp pretty good with fair.

 

[theunabletable]

Marth has good range and all, but range doesn't make that big of a difference when you're just as easily baited as everyone else, it just means everyone else has slightly as much space to bait you.

I mean he's not as easily baited as everyone else, but against a character like Fox he might as well be.

I'm not experienced in the matchup, and I'm pretty sure Mike beats TKD lately, but when I imagine the matchup, it does seem fairly even. If it's 55-45 Marth's favor, I'd imagine it comes from doing better against Fox's recovery than vice versa. Although it does seem fairly even when I think about it.

 

[crifer]

About wolf:
He is way better than fox against IC´s and pika because of his superior horizontal aerial mobility.
Marth only seems to have the advantage against fox, because fox players are running into fair/nair traps.

About DK vs IC´s:
DK can beat/trade desynced blizzards with downB, which is the move with the most range on the ground afaik. I think it´s between -1 and -2 for DK :-/

 

[theunabletable]

Can't DK bair or ftilt through blizzard if he times it right, because his foot moves so fast that it only trades?

Or did they increase DK's bair and ftilt range in Brawl minus lol?

The latter may be the case, but I don't think it is, and I know from playing DK a ton in Brawl minus that if spaced right you can use DK's big body parts to hit through blizzard.