Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

[Overswarm]

Budget needs to gtfo seriously. Those CPs are all MK ****holes and I shouldn't have to type up an essay for obviously broken stages.

Typing up an essay probably won't get you anywhere; we've discussed all these stages for three iterations now and have long posts for virtually every one! Videos and fresh insight, confirmation of previous concerns, those are the kind of things that would tip the scales.

 

[Tmacc]

I'd be willing to give this set a try, honestly.

Either way, the set is a recommendation (as has been said many times), not something that is enforced...I basically see it as a lost of stages that "can" be neutrals and stages that "can" be viable counterpicks. TOs can still decide which to use etc...its just a wider selection. No biggie; don't make it in to a huge ordeal. Jeez.

 

[Overswarm]

i think smash balls should be discussed next.

We discussed these early after the game's release. The large divide in final smash strength was concerning, but more importantly, we found that smash balls would literally spawn near the losing player to give them an edge. That is unacceptable.

 

[Vermanubis]

The cars KO at 65% on mid-weights, I believe. Can anyone confirm the exact percents with proper DI?

With that aside, "interfering with the pace of gameplay" isn't a very good reason to ban a stage. Do you know how often I've missed grabs with tether characters on Lylat because of stage tilts, or had my tethers just fail because I'm just out of reach after a tilt? Even ZSS' side-b randomly just doesn't connect on Lylat all the time. Yes, these things aren't killing me at 65% or whatever, but these are also pervasive regular occurrences and not something that might happen once ever ten games, unlike PTAD's hazards which are admittedly quite profound but shouldn't actually cause any large problems when both players know the stage. If you don't know the stage I could see you losing to hazards often, but I'm not sure I have much sympathy for that person.

And don't even get me started on Brinstar.

With stages like Lylat, that's not exactly what I'd consider interrupting the game's pace. Brinstar's lava I agree is ridiculous, but it doesn't kill and is circumventable, easily. You're forced to higher ground, but not to stop fighting completely. The cars in PTAD do not come at set times, and like I said, you have to run away from each other pretty constantly. In addition, the grab issue.

Say if a heavyweight has the lead (or even if he doesn't, due to him not being launched higher due to weight discrepancies) they can just grab their opponent and wait for the cars to come hit them both. There are just too many ways the cars can interfere.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

We discussed these early after the game's release. The large divide in final smash strength was concerning, but more importantly, we found that smash balls would literally spawn near the losing player to give them an edge. That is unacceptable.

Isn't counterpicking designed to give the losing player an edge?

Yes, I realize these are very different animals, I just want to hear your response to this and someone is going to ask.

Say if a heavyweight has the lead (or even if he doesn't, due to him not being launched higher due to weight discrepancies) they can just grab their opponent and wait for the cars to come hit them both. There are just too many ways the cars can interfere.

The opposing player, in this case, outskilled you. Nothing random happened here.

Also, I believe the cars do move around the track at a set rate. Even if it is random they are in most cases easy to see coming.

It's worth nothing that the only time the cars kill early is on one transformation (the one in which they come in from the right side) where the track slopes upward. At every other point, the cars are a nuisance at best.

 

[CTX]

Thank you for being intelligent and realizing how little of a difference this really is in terms of the stage list. No one seems to realize that Stage List 2.0 was almost identical. People still cherry-picked the stages that they wanted. There's nothing wrong with that and there's nothing wrong with people doing that now.

ssssshhh....

 

[Overswarm]

im confused as to the "let the screen decide the winner" rule.

on some moves like ganon side b. or bowser claw can't rembember doesn something like port priority or random factors determine who wins?

Port priority involving Bowser was what made him win prior, but we discovered later Bowser can always survive with a well timed jump.

The "screen decides winner" is the fairest way of doing things; arbitrarily changing the natural properties of a rule is unfair. It either is an unfair disadvantage or advantage, best not to touch it.

 

[Steam]

If you're hit into them, you were outplayed. Especially if they give you warning.

Ok So I put 100% damage on someone while only taking 50, then get GR'd off a platform into a car. yeah I totally deserve to lose there because the other player outplayed me so hard.

 

[ADHD]

If you're hit into them, you were outplayed. Especially if they give you warning.

So dumb, rofl. You obviously don't play this game much.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ok So I put 100% damage on someone while only taking 50, then get GR'd off a platform into a car. yeah I totally deserve to lose there because the other player outplayed me so hard.

Yes, you did., You deserved to lose. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand here. The opposing player took advantage of the stage and beat you. The cars don't kill often enough and regularly enough (again, they only kill super early on one transformation) for you to say this sort of thing would happen often anyway.

So dumb, rofl. You obviously don't play this game much.

Do you ever make any real arguments or do you just tell everyone how bad they are?

 

[Ganonsburg]

Port priority involving Bowser was what made him win prior, but we discovered later Bowser can always survive with a well timed jump.

The "screen decides winner" is the fairest way of doing things; arbitrarily changing the natural properties of a rule is unfair. It either is an unfair disadvantage or advantage, best not to touch it.

That's why the player with the lower percent wins if they time out the other person, right?

 

[Overswarm]

Sorry guys, Mic128 has been handing out infractions to me for replying to your questions, so I'm no longer responding to any posts.

Please send any and all complaints to Mic128's PM inbox and/or make a formal complaint to smashboards admins.

 

[Yikarur]

People were waiting for a new "official" stage list since eternities.
2.0 wasn't good so the peoples were hoping 3.0 is better and now there are disappointed.

Stop bringing "2.0 and 3.0 are almost identical" as an argument for the dumbness of the contra ruleset people because most of them doesn't like the former ruleset and were hoping that it switches in a better way but it didn't

 

[Vermanubis]

Port priority involving Bowser was what made him win prior, but we discovered later Bowser can always survive with a well timed jump.

The "screen decides winner" is the fairest way of doing things; arbitrarily changing the natural properties of a rule is unfair. It either is an unfair disadvantage or advantage, best not to touch it.

Devs said Bowser was meant to win Klawmakazes. Klaws hurt opponents onstage. In addition, this mandate is inconsistent with the rest of the rules. There are plenty of programming errors, or "natural properties" that are overlooked.

I may be wrong, but the BBR exists to congregate and decide upon issues such as this. Not throw in the towel to remain safe and ambivalent. We look at Ganon, and though his Ganoncide is exactly identical in nature to Klawmakaze, Ganon loses 90% of the time, whereas Bowser wins. This is silly.

 

[CTX]

Yes, you did., You deserved to lose. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand here. The opposing player took advantage of the stage and beat you. The cars don't kill often enough and regularly enough (again, they only kill super early on one transformation) for you to say this sort of thing would happen often anyway.

This is gonna be one of my first real srs comments on this thread...

This logic of "just get better at the game, you scrub" thats being used to support these stages is dumb for one reason and one reason only...I can apply it to every ****ing stage

Why ban 75m? Just get better at understanding the game mechanics?
Why ban Rumble Falls? Just get better at understanding where the hazards are and stop getting outplayed? You should now were those purple spikes are scrub!
Why ban "X" stage? Just stopping such a noob.

If you have this logic, you have to support the legalization of EVERY stage (something I have yet to see anybody advocate). No exceptions. Because you have already established the rationale of "just get better at the game n00b and you can manipulate your surroundings better". To no support the legalization of every stage, and still maintain this logic is backwards.

Oddly enough I can also apply some of OS' logic as well to this

"What tournament experience has there been in experimenting with 75m?" We have none. So why not try and explore the current 2010 metagame with this stage and stages like Rumble Falls?"

You can't give me any tournament results or video that shows that these stages are bad, so how can you know they are bad?

 

[Steam]

Better yet, Tripping into cars? accidental footstool into cars?

Also @ Clowsui- D3 can just stand on the bottom flat area and CG up the slope from there.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Why don't we just automatically give Bowser players port priority?


...kidding.

 

[Vermanubis]

Yes, you did., You deserved to lose. I'm not sure what's so difficult to understand here. The opposing player took advantage of the stage and beat you. The cars don't kill often enough and regularly enough (again, they only kill super early on one transformation) for you to say this sort of thing would happen often anyway.

Do you ever make any real arguments or do you just tell everyone how bad they are?

Taking advantage of the stage is one thing. Be rewarded a free KO because you happened to GR at the right time is a wholly different one.

 

[Yikarur]

I still don't know why Big Blue is banned, when we take a look on the "ban worthy-aspects" the SBR used big blue doesn't fit in there!

 

[Jack Kieser]

I may be wrong, but the BBR exists to congregate and decide upon issues such as this. Not throw in the towel to remain safe and ambivalent. We look at Ganon, and though his Ganoncide is exactly identical in nature to Klawmakaze, Ganon loses 90% of the time, whereas Bowser wins. This is silly.

NEW FLASH. DIFFERENT MOVES WORK IN DIFFERENT WAYS. MORE AT 11.

Seriously, bad argument is bad. Just because two moves are similar doesn't mean they are identical. Those subtle differences are just as much a part of Bowser / Ganon as their speed or weight class. It's NOT OUR JOB TO MAKE THE MOVES WORK THE SAME WAY, it's our job to deal with it.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Taking advantage of the stage is one thing. Be rewarded a free KO because you happened to GR at the right time is a wholly different one.

Why are you saying "happened to GR at the right time", as though each player doesn't have a hand in it? If I decide to time my grab and I know GR mechanics well enough to trick you into mashing out just in time to be hit by a car, that's called GAME KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL.

Maybe, you should have not mashed and stayed held for a second longer. Too bad you made the wrong choice. You lose.

EDIT: Oh, now you guys slow down the thread.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This is gonna be one of my first real srs comments on this thread...

This logic of "just get better at the game, you scrub" thats being used to support these stages is dumb for one reason and one reason only...I can apply it to every ****ing stage

Why ban 75m? Just get better at understanding the game mechanics?
Why ban Rumble Falls? Just get better at understanding where the hazards are and stop getting outplayed? You should now were those purple spikes are scrub!
Why ban "X" stage? Just stopping such a noob.

If you have this logic, you have to support the legalization of EVERY stage (something I have yet to see anybody advocate). No exceptions. Because you have already established the rationale of "just get better at the game n00b and you can manipulate your surroundings better". To no support the legalization of every stage, and still maintain this logic is backwards.

Actually I agree. You can use my logic to argue for the legalization of a lot of banned stages. The only times I believe a stage should be banned is when a single strategy is so pervasive that banning the stage is required for the success of a competitive gaming venture. This is similar to the requirements often cited for banning a character.

For instance, I'm not even sure Rumble Falls should -be- banned. When we ban a stage it is because of pervasive or overpowered strategies when relating to a stage (hence the Smashville controversy) and not because you could die early to a hazard or because you don't like the way the stage makes you play the game. To this end, this is the best stagelist to date (although I think Pirate Ship could be legal; I've heard a lot of opposing viewpoints when it comes to "rudder stalling" and I don't know all of the facts).

An example of a stage that cannot be legal is Temple, because the "cave of immortatlity" is a pervasive, required strategy. This stage -must- be banned. 75m has similar problems, as well as New Pork City. These stages come with strategies that are so strongly integrated that the stages must be banned.

 

[Yikarur]

Why are you saying "happened to GR at the right time", as though each player doesn't have a hand in it? If I decide to time my grab and I know GR mechanics well enough to trick you into mashing out just in time to be hit by a car, that's called GAME KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL.
P

I would call it randomness.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I would call it randomness.

And you would be wrong. Provably, demonstratably wrong. Mainly because the cars give you warning, allowing you to position and bait before they reach you.

Another news flash: people can have uninformed opinions. Just because you have the right to an opinion, doesn't mean your opinion can't ever be WRONG.

 

[Vermanubis]

NEW FLASH. DIFFERENT MOVES WORK IN DIFFERENT WAYS. MORE AT 11.

Seriously, bad argument is bad. Just because two moves are similar doesn't mean they are identical. Those subtle differences are just as much a part of Bowser / Ganon as their speed or weight class. It's NOT OUR JOB TO MAKE THE MOVES WORK THE SAME WAY, it's our job to deal with it.

You're calling me on a bad argument, yet that's the biggest load of sophistry I've ever seen.

They are identical in nature. You both grab the opponent. You both plunge down and damage them. There is more than enough evidential material to support the fact that Ganon and Bowser deserve the win. Leaving something so random is just ridiculous.

It is your job to deal with it. But thus far, you guys aren't doing a very good job. At all. The BBR's job is to act as a guiding force through the bugs and errors of the game and present logic to the scenario and reach a conclusion. So far, the logic I've seen are theorycrafting pontiffs overusing the word "arbitrarily" without granting any merit to the word. Yes, I'm impressed you can parrot big, scary words, BBR, but what exactly about it is arbitrary?

Example: Ganon grabs them by the throat and slams them down. He initiates the move. He takes no damage when done onstage.

BBR's logic: The opponent grabs Ganon by the hand with their throat and reverses polarity just before they hit the blastzone.

 

[Yikarur]

And you would be wrong. Provably, demonstratably wrong. Mainly because the cars give you warning, allowing you to position and bait before they reach you.

Another news flash: people can have uninformed opinions. Just because you have the right to an opinion, doesn't mean your opinion can't ever be WRONG.

You don't get a warning on every transformation and if I grab my opponent and he mashes or breaks ouf ot the grab in the moment the cars arrive it's random because my intention wasn't to release him so that he gets hit by the cars.

 

[Vermanubis]

Why are you saying "happened to GR at the right time", as though each player doesn't have a hand in it? If I decide to time my grab and I know GR mechanics well enough to trick you into mashing out just in time to be hit by a car, that's called GAME KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL.

Maybe, you should have not mashed and stayed held for a second longer. Too bad you made the wrong choice. You lose.

EDIT: Oh, now you guys slow down the thread.

Someone doesn't know very much about the game.

Cars will still hit you when you're grabbed and, let's remember, grab-releases' whole deal is the fact that you can't escape. So regardless of when you're grabbed, you're screwed.

These inane rules are so stochastic and random that it boggles the mind to think of what clowns took the BBR's place and came up with the abomination we see on the front page.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Your intentions have very little to do with randomness. If you grab release someone into the water on Jungle James and they die to the Klaptrap it isn't random just because you "didn't mean to do it," you just got lucky. Stuff like this happens on clasically legal stages frequently and yet I don't see you here posting about it.

Brawl is a game in which many stages and many characters have game-changing random mechanics attached. Most people say randomness has no place in competitive gaming but it is all over brawl. If you want to attack Brawl's "randomness" there are a ton of great ways to do that (such as talking about Peach and Dedede's Bombs and Gordos) but talking about PTAD's cars isn't a good use of your time in this regard because they aren't random.

If you're strongly opposed to the involvement of "luck" in competitive gaming then I suggest finding another game with or without PTAD.

 

[Steam]

Can anyone answer me about how having YI pipes legal making the CP system ******** against just about all characters that can be CG'd by D3 by being able to scare them off their main simply by choosing Pipes or green greens?

 

[Jack Kieser]

You're calling me on a bad argument, yet that's the biggest load of sophistry I've ever seen.

Doesn't matter if my logic is sound. Pro-tip: it is.

They are identical in nature.

But not in MECHANICS. And that matters. A lot.

You both grab the opponent. You both plunge down and damage them.

So, they were designed similarly. But, they aren't identical. If they were, they'd have the same animations. They'd have the same KB. They have the same mechanics. Just because they are similar DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE THE SAME.

There is more than enough evidential material to support the fact that Ganon and Bowser deserve the win.

There is no such thing as "deserve the win". The win screen is all that matters. Who wins, wins. If we start delving into the realm of "well, we can decide on our own who deserves the win", we might as well just give all of our money to M2K and call it a day.

Leaving something so random is just ridiculous.

Apparently, it's not THAT random. Bowser is on top of the opponent during his suicide, which means that his opponent crosses the death boundary first. Ganon is ON EQUAL LEVELS with his opponent during HIS suicide, which can randomize the results, since there is no way to know who ACTUALLY passes the boundary first until the win screen. If you think about it for more than 5 seconds, it makes total sense.

It is your job to deal with it. But thus far, you guys aren't doing a very good job. At all. The BBR's job is to act as a guiding force through the bugs and errors of the game and present logic to the scenario and reach a conclusion. So far, the logic I've seen are theorycrafting pontiffs overusing the word "arbitrarily" without granting any merit to the word.

Yeah, because all of that testing they do means NOTHING. Yeah, I'm going to defer to the group whose JOB it is to test mundane details like that. Try a little humility next time... unless you want to argue that you know how Sakurai coded the game.

 

[Yikarur]

the Event itself isn't random, right but when I am lucky that means that something I don't intend to do happend so If my opponents lost a stock on a hazard because I got lucky then it happend randomly.

 

[Vermanubis]

Your intentions have very little to do with randomness. If you grab release someone into the water on Jungle James and they die to the Klaptrap it isn't random just because you "didn't mean to do it," you just got lucky. Stuff like this happens on clasically legal stages frequently and yet I don't see you here posting about it.

Brawl is a game in which many stages and many characters have game-changing random mechanics attached. Most people say randomness has no place in competitive gaming but it is all over brawl. If you want to attack Brawl's "randomness" there are a ton of great ways to do that (such as talking about Peach and Dedede's Bombs and Gordos) but talking about PTAD's cars isn't a good use of your time in this regard.

Classically legal stages such as? I don't recall ever seeing such things happen at SV, BF, FD, LC, CS, Halberd (hazards affect too little of the stage and too few and far between) or PS1. Maybe on RC and Brinstar, but they should be banned, too.

 

[Juushichi]

People were waiting for a new "official" stage list since eternities.
2.0 wasn't good so the peoples were hoping 3.0 is better and now there are disappointed.

Stop bringing "2.0 and 3.0 are almost identical" as an argument for the dumbness of the contra ruleset people because most of them doesn't like the former ruleset and were hoping that it switches in a better way but it didn't

Could you clarify this? Most people didn't like 2.0's iteration for different reasons. I didn't like 2.0 because I failed to understand why FD, SV, BF were considered to be neutral over another possible 3 stage. This stage list in terms of starters addressed my concerns with the starter distinction and thus I am happy with it. As for the counter picks, I also don't have many concerns. I'm sure I'll run into people who play a certain stage the way I don't like, but I'm going to test what I'm playing.

Ultimately, I felt that the stage list switched in a better way. Again, I would love to hear you clarify your stance.

Personally, I /wouldn't/ like to hear a stage be out ruled because "it's gay", but hey if that's your prerogative, I'd not mind hearing that either.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

the Event itself isn't random, right but when I am lucky that means that something I don't intend to do happend so If my opponents lost a stock on a hazard because I got lucky then it happend randomly.

Luck isn't inherently anti-competitive, and even if it was, it is all over this game, even in classically legal stages. Luck also isn't inherently random.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Classically legal stages such as? I don't recall ever seeing such things happen at SV, BF, FD, LC, CS, Halberd (hazards affect too little of the stage and too few and far between) or PS1. Maybe on RC and Brinstar, but they should be banned, too.

See: balloon spawns and gimps Ness' recovery.

 

[fkacyan]

Luck isn't inherently anti-competitive, and even if it was, it is all over this game, even in classically legal stages. Luck also isn't inherently random.

I'm not sure if this tops what I currently have quoted in my sig, but if it doesn't it sure is pretty **** close.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I support a LGL for MK only also, however, how would you be able to call out an MK stalling, if he gets on the ledge, stays there for like, ~45 seconds, comes back on with an invincible attack or torando, then gets right back on? These things also require judges, which imo, is ineffective, they should use something that can be checked post match at the score screen.

That isn't stalling, but we unfortunately can't get the TOs checking on this **** all the time. I mean, against, say, falco, my best position, if I have the lead, is on and under the ledge. He can't do anything to me there, regardless of HOW I plank-his offstage options are ****ty. But who's to say I'm not stalling? How much is too much? We could have TOs watching every match, except that's totally impractical and unrealistic. Therefore LGLs are, unfortunately, necessary. For MK only though, plz.

I'm just curious:

does anyone who plays on PTAD regularly find that they die to hazards more often than they would on say, Halberd, Brinstar, or Lylat? I play friendlies frequently on PTAD because I like the stage and find that the hazards on Brinstar and Lylat (I'm referring to the stage tilts) to interfere with normal gameplay more often, not less, once I learned the stage. This is particularly true of Brinstar, a stage which is legal and not often contested as being legal, even in the EC where stages with intrusive hazards are almost never legal.

The alarmism in this thread is again, astounding and smells strongly of conservative ignorance. Keep an open mind. Or hell, don't, and have your TO ban the stages, it isn't that big a deal. People already ignore most of the BBR's recommended stage list in almost every region.

DEAR GOD THIS. As said, in the last 10 games I played on PTAD, I got hit by 0 cars.

I still think this stage list is absolutely broken for D3 if YI pipes is legal. to the point where anyone could CP it just to scare them off their CG-able main or get wall infinited/walked-off and basically auto lose D3's CP.

but in general winning game 1 will be SUPER IMPORTANT because of the CP strength.

DDD can CG the following character up either side of YI(M):
-Wolf (gets ledge infinited anyways, non-viable character)
-Ganon (non-viable)
-Link (non-viable)
-DK (...do I have to explain this one?)
-Wario (whenever wario gets grabbed by anyone he's in for one hell of a ****ty time. Good warios never get grabbed. Or they could ban this stage, but I doubt it's worse in the MU than FD)
-Lucario (the only one for which this actually matters).

So, 6 chars total, only one of which really makes any difference. DDD's CG is not a real issue on YI(M).

We discussed these early after the game's release. The large divide in final smash strength was concerning, but more importantly, we found that smash balls would literally spawn near the losing player to give them an edge. That is unacceptable.

Not just that. They also break easier for him, float closer to him, and are harder to whack out of him.

Sorry guys, Mic128 has been handing out infractions to me for replying to your questions, so I'm no longer responding to any posts.

Please send any and all complaints to Mic128's PM inbox and/or make a formal complaint to smashboards admins.

WHAAAAAAAAAAT????

Explanation. Now. WTF is going on?

Actually I agree. You can use my logic to argue for the legalization of a lot of banned stages. The only times I believe a stage should be banned is when a single strategy is so pervasive that banning the stage is required for the success of a competitive gaming venture. This is similar to the requirements often cited for banning a character.

For instance, I'm not even sure Rumble Falls should -be- banned. When we ban a stage it is because of pervasive or overpowered strategies when relating to a stage (hence the Smashville controversy) and not because you could die early to a hazard or because you don't like the way the stage makes you play the game. To this end, this is the best stagelist to date (although I think Pirate Ship could be legal; I've heard a lot of opposing viewpoints when it comes to "rudder stalling" and I don't know all of the facts).

An example of a stage that cannot be legal is Temple, because the "cave of immortatlity" is a pervasive, required strategy. This stage -must- be banned. 75m has similar problems, as well as New Pork City. These stages come with strategies that are so strongly integrated that the stages must be banned.

Pretty much this. Also, I'll call your RF and raise you a Mario Bros.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Classically legal stages such as? I don't recall ever seeing such things happen at SV, BF, FD, LC, CS, Halberd (hazards affect too little of the stage and too few and far between) or PS1. Maybe on RC and Brinstar, but they should be banned, too.

You've never seen anyone die during a PS1 stage transformation? You've never seen a ZSS or Link miss a grab on Lylat and get fsmashed by Snake when it probably would not have happened on a different stage? You've never had your opponent saved by ghosts on YIB? You've never been killed by the crane in Halberd during hitstun?

And there's more: You've never tripped? You've never had Peach pull a bomb and just mindlessly throw it at you before he or she realized it was pulled? You've never been Gordo'd? You've never been 9-hammered?

If you don't like PTAD don't use it. That's fine. There's nothing wrong with preferences. But arguing against it because it's "random" or there's "too much luck involved" is a losing battle in a game where luck is already so prevalent. I'm not sure how else I can say it.

I'm not sure if this tops what I currently have quoted in my sig, but if it doesn't it sure is pretty **** close.

There are dozens of card games and competitive RPGs with random factors. WoW arena is the most notable example. Competition is what we make of it. You can't simply declare something "anti-competitive" when thousands of players participate and the most skilled players are still usually winning money. The "random" or "luck" elements simply aren't pervasive enough.

If you're mocking me make an argument or shut up.

 

[Ussi]

If you are getting grabbed released into klap trap you totally derserve it when you can one: not mash out to stall 1 second two: air break

 

[Jack Kieser]

Hey, Thio, once the thread is cleared out of all the alarmists and ad-hominem, would you like to come back with me / OS / BPC / whoever else and get some ACTUAL debating done?