Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

[Yikarur]

of course the word random doesn't fit in his sense but you should at least understand what I want to say with it.

my testimoney was just for that

"Why are you saying "happened to GR at the right time", as though each player doesn't have a hand in it? If I decide to time my grab and I know GR mechanics well enough to trick you into mashing out just in time to be hit by a car, that's called GAME KNOWLEDGE AND SKILL."

because that part is awkward logic and theoriecrafting.

 

[clowsui]

look

if the BBR is composed of a bunch of misguided morons, then think about it this way:
since they're moronic in everything they do, there's no way you can expect them in their idiocy to see how "stupid" stages are, regardless of how simple it may be. therefore, you should present to them a thorough and simple to understand reporting on why the stages are broken.

you can do this in multiple ways:
1. controlled variable testing
2. friendly and tournament matches with commentary or with a clear demonstration of a "broken" element
2a. win tournaments using certain tactics on stages
3. use frame + pictoral data (very difficult to do it this way)

since it's so "obvious" that these stages are broken, then it really shouldn't take much effort at all to show why they're broken right? i don't have a preference as to how the stage list is, really but my main concern is how people like to cite isolated incidents without video/picture footage, argue about stages with limited reasoning and to descend to personal attacks (seriously, the midwest isn't "bad" just because we have liberal lists).

PERSONALLY as a falco main and marf secondary it'd be really nice to have a more conservative stage list + i think that metaknight is broken but i'm all for the community being happy so we should create a stage list to keep him in the metagame (even though i still don't support LGL or scrooging rules, lol), but that's my own personal bias. in the end, for the sake of comprehensively proving why we shouldn't have x or y stages my logical and reasonable side comes through and i demand data.

reposting because people need to see this...

 

[Ganonsburg]

Doesn't matter if my logic is sound. Pro-tip: it is.

So logic doesn't matter? Okay. I guess you could go float off into space riding your magical dragon then.

coughwhydoesthepersonwithlesspercentwineventhoughthewinnersscreendoesn'tsaythatcough

Answer please^ And with logic, because it matters to me.

 

[Jack Kieser]

So logic doesn't matter? Okay. I guess you could go float off into space riding your magical dragon then.

coughwhydoesthepersonwithlesspercentwineventhoughthewinnersscreendoesn'tsaythatcough

Answer please^ And with logic, because it matters to me.

You read my wording wrong; sorry, it was ambiguous. Reread that sentence as "It doesn't matter, if my logic is sound."

 

[fkacyan]

Hey, Thio, once the thread is cleared out of all the alarmists and ad-hominem, would you like to come back with me / OS / BPC / whoever else and get some ACTUAL debating done?

Not particularly. I'm looking past the initial shock to the rules and seeing some motivations behind some of the legality, etc that quite frankly makes me want to completely disinvest myself from the community entirely.

 

[Vermanubis]

Doesn't matter if my logic is sound. Pro-tip: it is.

Oh, glib rebuttal!



But not in MECHANICS. And that matters. A lot.

lol. Mechanics. If you're going to be pedantic about mechanics, might want to maintain consistency throughout the ruleset. You think all 500 malcontents so far are just delusional? lol



o, they were designed similarly. But, they aren't identical. If they were, they'd have the same animations. They'd have the same KB. They have the same mechanics. Just because they are similar DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE THE SAME.

Right! And Pink Meta Knight should be treated differently than blue Meta Knight. They are clearly not designed the same. You and your panicked fallacies.


There is no such thing as "deserve the win". The win screen is all that matters. Who wins, wins. If we start delving into the realm of "well, we can decide on our own who deserves the win", we might as well just give all of our money to M2K and call it a day.

If you get hit, whether or not you deserved to get hit is indeterminable?



Apparently, it's not THAT random. Bowser is on top of the opponent during his suicide, which means that his opponent crosses the death boundary first. Ganon is ON EQUAL LEVELS with his opponent during HIS suicide, which can randomize the results, since there is no way to know who ACTUALLY passes the boundary first until the win screen. If you think about it for more than 5 seconds, it makes total sense.

So Ganon pulls out a mattress and they both lay on it as he throttles them to their doom on an equal level? Ganon is most definitely on top of his opponent. These rules and implements should be used globally; not have a bunch of pedantic theorycrafters use selective reasoning



Yeah, because all of that testing they do means NOTHING. Yeah, I'm going to defer to the group whose JOB it is to test mundane details like that. Try a little humility next time... unless you want to argue that you know how Sakurai coded the game.

I can agree with the opening claue

Don't bother replying until you read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy

I don't feel like humoring pseudointellectuals who can't recognize what a fallacy is.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Aww... sad panda, Thio. Oh well, guess I'm going to have to deal with all of the "items guy" comments while talking about stages. Too bad, I guess. -_-'

EDIT @ Vermanubis: WHY DO YOU RESPOND LIKE THAT?!?! I hate responding to those; such terrible formatting. Really, take the extra 1 minute to add in the

tags, please. It's ok, though, because all I was going to do was laugh at you for insinuating that Bowser/Ganon's animation differences were COMPARABLY THE SAME AS MK HAVING 2 COSTUMES.

Have fun being ignored.

 

[Steam]

DDD can CG the following character up either side of YI(M):
-Wolf (gets ledge infinited anyways, non-viable character)
-Ganon (non-viable)
-Link (non-viable)
-DK (...do I have to explain this one?)
-Wario (whenever wario gets grabbed by anyone he's in for one hell of a ****ty time. Good warios never get grabbed. Or they could ban this stage, but I doubt it's worse in the MU than FD)
-Lucario (the only one for which this actually matters).

So, 6 chars total, only one of which really makes any difference. DDD's CG is not a real issue on YI(M).

he can actually chaingrab everyone he can normally CG except luigi. ggs. CP? if you use D3 I'm ****ed

 

[bigman40]

I like how people are complaining now when they'll just use their own stage lists. This is why **** can't get done. People complain too much now.

Edit: Steam, he can't CG Yoshi up the hill. Lucky break for Yoshi (even though D3 isn't his problem). Get over it.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

If your goal isn't to make Brawl a better competitive game then you should probably not be in this thread. Troll elsewhere, I guess.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Hey, Thio, once the thread is cleared out of all the alarmists and ad-hominem, would you like to come back with me / OS / BPC / whoever else and get some ACTUAL debating done?

but.... you support items....

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sorry guys, Mic128 has been handing out infractions to me for replying to your questions, so I'm no longer responding to any posts.

Please send any and all complaints to Mic128's PM inbox and/or make a formal complaint to smashboards admins.

Still wondering "WTF IS UP WITH THIS". And you guys should too.

 

[Ganonsburg]

You read my wording wrong; sorry, it was ambiguous. Reread that sentence as "It doesn't matter, if my logic is sound."

Oh, okay. But still, someone has yet to answer the point about the "arbitrary" rule about percents, and why that's okay when the suicide rule is not.

 

[Vermanubis]

We'll let Brawl evolve once we know we have beings other than circus clowns, simians, and elementary school honor students in the BBR.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He was infracted for multiposting (okay) and trolling (wait, what)?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

he can actually chaingrab everyone he can normally CG except luigi. ggs. CP? if you use D3 I'm ****ed

Um... wrong. To make this very clear: DDD can not running CG 0-death anyone except those 6 characters up the slopes on YI(M). Test it. It does not work.

but.... you support items....

This just made me laugh my *** off. +rep if you did it on purpose, go get a lobotomy if you didn't.

 

[fkacyan]

If your goal isn't to make Brawl a better competitive game then you should probably not be in this thread. Troll elsewhere, I guess.

That's the thing: I don't think that the entire SBR is voting based on making the game better competitively but rather for a particular agenda, be it having more stages legal or making MK more bannable.

Anybody who genuinely believes that there should be no ledge grab limit is probably just hoping it gets used enough so that the "BAN MK" threads make a tremendous return.

 

[Jack Kieser]

but.... you support items....

No, I don't. I hate items. I've never supported items. Really, there is no sarcasm in this post. I'm being 100% serious.

EDIT @ Thio: There shouldn't be a LGL. Either ban or don't ban. Limiting is just stupid.

 

[Yikarur]

I like how people are complaining now when they'll just use their own stage lists. This is why **** can't get done. People complain too much now.

.

the Problem is that this doesn't count for NON-TO's. So Non-TO's have to hope that their TOs doesn't adapt to that rules.

 

[Steam]

I like how people are complaining now when they'll just use their own stage lists. This is why **** can't get done. People complain too much now.

Edit: Steam, he can't CG Yoshi up the hill. Lucky break for Yoshi (even though D3 isn't his problem). Get over it.

If it isn't overcentralizing on D3's CG I don't know what is. I use falco for that MU anyways so this has nothing to do with lucario being my main.

@ budget player- other people have tested and aparently found otherwise

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If it isn't overcentralizing on D3's CG I don't know what is. I use falco for that MU anyways so this has nothing to do with lucario being my main.

PAY ATTENTION. It only works on 6 chars. Of those, only lucario is affected to the extent where it MIGHT be the worst stage for him in the matchup. It's a good DDD stage, but that's not the reason. His CG is actually fairly janky on YI(M).

 

[fkacyan]

No, I don't. I hate items. I've never supported items. Really, there is no sarcasm in this post. I'm being 100% serious.

EDIT @ Thio: There shouldn't be a LGL. Either ban or don't ban. Limiting is just stupid.

"Just stupid."

You're gonna have to explain better why we shouldn't use limiting tools to balance characters instead of outright banning them.

 

[Crow!]

First of all, I would like to head off any allegations that MLG influenced our stage list. There is quite a bit of animosity in the BBR toward the game - related policies of MLG, and if anything there was some subtle pressure to spite MLG in this regard with whatever ways possible. (Of course, the massive publicity and the "sheer awesomeness of the venues" factors of MLG are greatly appreciated.) No, the stage list is a result of studying the game without blinding ourselves with what people have banned in the past.

We knew that Port Town: Aero Dive was going to have a hugely negative reaction from the public. In fact, the anticipation of this was the basis for something like half of the votes against it - we knew there would be some other stages that would generate negative reactions which already passed, and some wanted to ease the reception.

The stage ITSELF raised very few reasons to ban it. I, too, really disliked it before trying it a few more times. Avoiding the hazards is actually extremely easy, and hitting your opponent into them is quite hard. Try it.

 

[Steam]

PAY ATTENTION. It only works on 6 chars. Of those, only lucario is affected to the extent where it MIGHT be the worst stage for him in the matchup. It's a good DDD stage, but that's not the reason. His CG is actually fairly janky on YI(M).

According to Atomisk it works on everyone that he normally CG's except luigi

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=282811&page=56

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

That's the thing: I don't think that the entire SBR is voting based on making the game better competitively but rather for a particular agenda, be it having more stages legal or making MK more bannable.

Anybody who genuinely believes that there should be no ledge grab limit is probably just hoping it gets used enough so that the "BAN MK" threads make a tremendous return.

Ledge grab limits are an acknowledgement that the ledge is broken, which it isn't, because only one character is allegedly broken when interacting with it. Ledge grab limits are therefore fallacious. If MK is broken on the ledge, ban him or address his interaction with the ledge individually. If he isn't, don't.

Basically, we need to be addressing what's broken and nothing else when possible.

 

[fkacyan]

Ledge grab limits are an acknowledgement that the ledge is broken, which it isn't, because only one character is allegedly broken when interacting with it. Ledge grab limits are therefore fallacious. If MK is broken on the ledge, ban him or address his interaction with the ledge individually. If he isn't, don't.

Nothing in this is factual. It is entirely an opinion.

What is the downside to an LGL? What does it hurt (Aside from the Ban MK agenda)?

 

[Vermanubis]

Okay, perfect example of why Ganon needs his side-b for recovery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcDF1baR734&feature=related

Skip to 4:50.

As you can see, when Will threw me offstage, if I was on my last stock and if the suicide rule was implemented, here's what would've happen:

-I would've been forced to up-b, which gets Ganon punished and killed due to its low knockback and no hitstun. Yes, after Ganon's up-b, you can buffer an aerial and gimp him.

-I would've been forced to do what I did with the Ganoncide, while Will could just run off and purposely get caught in the side-b ftw (literally).

I did what I did because I knew if I up-b'd, I'd have absolutely no way of surviving. So I had to use side-b to present the threat of killing him if he approached me on the ledge.

 

[bigman40]

the Problem is that this doesn't count for NON-TO's. So Non-TO's have to hope that their TOs doesn't adapt to that rules.

I run to the same problem, but you don't see me complaining about it. I'm just going to learn how to make the stages work for me and move on (even if it means using "lucky" tactics).

If it isn't overcentralizing on D3's CG I don't know what is. I use falco for that MU anyways so this has nothing to do with lucario being my main.

@ budget player- other people have tested and aparently found otherwise

The only true over-centralizing method to which you describe would end up being on Distant Planet (which should be frame data tested). The normal testing on it Showed that he could CG mainly every CG-able character to death, but at that same time, give him slight cover just under the main platform where you have to actually put yourself in harms way to attack him. As for YI:M, the slope is much higher and can change how the CGs are affected (can reduce the number most likely). Also, the yellow blocks allow you to break away instantly whenever D3 sits on them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Nothing in this is factual. It is entirely an opinion.

What is the downside to an LGL? What does it hurt (Aside from the Ban MK agenda)?

Pit and ROB players who ***** the ledge. You might not like this style of gameplay but that doesn't really matter, it isn't broken and they should be free to do that.

And by the way, regulating the ledge is a statement of belief that the ledge is broken. Would you say the ledge is broken?

 

[KageMurphy]

Ledge grab limits are an acknowledgement that the ledge is broken, which it isn't, because only one character is allegedly broken when interacting with it. Ledge grab limits are therefore fallacious. If MK is broken on the ledge, ban him or address his interaction with the ledge individually. If he isn't, don't.

In this community people can compromise. There is no need for an either or situation here, a LGL is a way of meeting in the middle since other characters can ledge ***** as well.

 

[Steam]

Still seems like it is just at a point where winning game 1 is everything. Thankfully this has seen so much criticism it won't be used by many TOs.

 

[fkacyan]

Pit and ROB players who ***** the ledge. You might not like this style of gameplay but that doesn't really matter, it isn't broken and they should be free to do that.

This doesn't explain why MK doesn't have an LGL.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

In this community people can compromise. There is no need for an either or situation here, a LGL is a way of meeting in the middle since other characters can ledge ***** as well.

Right, so ROB and Pit players should take the **** so that Meta Knight players can keep on bein' da bess. Got it.

This doesn't explain why MK doesn't have an LGL.

So give MK an LGL. I said in the post you quoted that he should either be banned, or his relationship with the ledge should be addressed on an individual basis. Did you choose not to read that part because you just assumed everything I say is stupid?

I am of the belief that if we are giving MK his own individual LGL we are admitting he's broken. I also believe LGLs don't really solve the problem. MK can time people out using ledge grabs and his basic recovery mechanics with under 20 ledge grabs. I do realize this is just one guy's opinion on the matter, though.

So no I am not opposed to a LGL for MK specifically.

 

[Vermanubis]

People should realize by now we're alarmist because it's fun. Brawl is boring and slow. Humiliatingly misdirected rulesets are fun.

 

[fkacyan]

So give MK an LGL. I said in the post you quoted that he should either be banned, or his relationship with the ledge should be addressed on an individual basis. Did you choose not to read that part because you just assumed everything I say is stupid?

Startlingly accurate synopsis right there.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Um... wrong. To make this very clear: DDD can not running CG 0-death anyone except those 6 characters up the slopes on YI(M). Test it. It does not work.



This just made me laugh my *** off. +rep if you did it on purpose, go get a lobotomy if you didn't.

Are you sure about this? If so, awesome, regardless Bowser's chaingrab is complete **** there. The slope actually helps jump release regrabs and he can already ground release regrab most of the cast already.

And yes I did it on purpose.

 

[Johnny Citrus]

The stage ITSELF raised very few reasons to ban it. I, too, really disliked it before trying it a few more times. Avoiding the hazards is actually extremely easy, and hitting your opponent into them is quite hard. Try it.

So basically there are a few scenarios

1. both players have to go to opposite ends of the stage. This interrupts gameplay, allows for a great stalling method too

2. Both players run to the same safe zone: Now both players are confined to like the same 2 feet of space, a lot of characters probably won't even be able to defend themselves in this situation.

3. While hitting your opponent into them is "quite hard" that means it's still possible and can be mastered, it could lead to people getting like kills at 50% here by the stage lol.

 

[GimR]

I didn't agree with all of the counter picks but some of you guys are being ridiculous. Just because MK can go under a stage and u-air doesn't mean he's broken on that stage.


On PTAD: MK can't grab the ledge so his under level u-air camping can be punished once he has to get back onto the stage

On DP: Items appear on the main stage so if someone's camping; you get the items. Also if MK shuttle loops, you can Short hop fast fall to make the stage go lower and mess up his timing

 

[bigman40]

As for people who said the BBR should acknowledge coding errors and **** (don't remember the whole thing), how about we don't allow people to attack Ganondorf whenever he's using Fair due to his coding error to not autocancel the move? Oh wait, now that this is in effect, we need another rule to justify what happens when someone hit Ganon while he's doing a Fair (even at the last possible minute before he got hit). Fixing coding errors is not what they do and they are in no position to make any amends to it. If it ****ed up your character, then it is what it is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Startlingly accurate synopsis right there.

Maybe if you actually read occasionally you'd change your mind.