Official BBR Recommended Rule List 3.0

[-Vocal-]

As far as the competitive nature of the game I expect them to know more than the average joe. Maybe I'm expecting too much from a group that's labeled to have "knowledgeable and respected" members?

I'm sure that they are more knowledgeable about the game than your average joe, but this does not mean that they will know everything. Do not ridicule them for not being perfect people; it is fine to have a concentration of knowledge in some areas while not others - this is only human. It's ok for them to not know everything; the important thing is that they have the most knowledge as a collective and that is the reason they congregate.

 

[Famous]

Lmao, the mechanics of Brawl itself is hazardous...Tripping, character related shinanigans, etc...

 

[Mic_128]

"We expect that a smart player can get around the bombs on Pirate ships, the stupid creature on Distant, the cars on port town, the lava on norfair, etc etc.."

God, people just want to play the game. Not playing while they have to fear stupid hazards coming up out of nowhere. It's annoying enough to play characters with annoying projectiles such as Falco or Pit. With those annoying stages with annoying hazards it only makes it works. It'll more look like a avoid-the-hazards-minigame then brawl.

While your complaints about norfair, ect disrupting the game might be legitimate, but you can not count the Bulborb on DP as a real hazard. Unless you DI into it or decide to hang around on it pointlessly, you will never ever get eaten by it.

 

[So Fatal]

Haze your a fkn fatass

 

[Orion*]

I wish that everyone here who's saying that we're underqualified to argue this would realize how wrong they are.

id like to see this because you have no experience dictating a ruleset that everyone else "should" use (but nobody does for legit nationals anyway). LOOL

To put this simply: Playing the game requires a different skill set than making the rules for the game.

thats false. thats like saying youre qualified to fly an airplane by reading the manual.

if you have no idea how to apply all of your concepts or ideas in a competitive setting then i dont see how are fully capable of understanding what you are talking about.

what i really mean - this is some bull*** ROFLMAO. if a planes crashing would you rather have me, who played a flight simulator in 5th grade or a retired pilot in the cabin fly the plane? id assume me becauuse you know, i have a big ****

In fact, so much to the extent that no actual pro player should be allowed to make the rules

you still havent stated a reason that sounds SOMEWHAT legitimate as to how you are qualified to even post on this site ROFL. no offense but you would not exist in other gaming communities. try this **** on dustloop PLEASE

-the people who make the rules must be knowledgeable but should not actually play the game any more.

so in other words, let people who are ignorant run the show >_>

The reason is simple-let's say ADHD was the sole creator of the brawl ruleset. What's stopping him from saying, "Hmm, I like winning" and pushing a stagelist where FD, Pictochat, and Smashville are the only starters, and BF and PTAD are the only counterpicks?

you know thats why. MORE THAN ONE PERSON MAKES A RULESET. and its generally agreed upon. what is this garbage that you are spouting and where did it come from, NOTHING like this has even happened and it is completely irrelevant. im tired of people reading your long as posts like you actually typed something useful, because NOTHING has happened yet. omg

Or a rule that says "diddy gets 4 stocks because he needs the boost" (compare to the rule arbitrarily declaring ganon the winner on a ganoncide tie/loss, or anti-planking rules)? Players will be biased. Hell, I'm biased, but I try to put that bias aside and argue for the points I support with the methods that actually make sense, as opposed to "this **** is gay".

the problem with this is that what if the matches keep on going to a tie >_>
time the tournament out? ROFL

also, THIS IS STILL COMPLETELY POINTLESS. so many people cared about the bowser rule? you know like... stages are just secondary.

We're not creating a new game here. We aren't balancing characters around a medium. We're deciding the best way to competitively play brawl

so you arent balancing a game thats supposed to be competitive......

and you arent a competitive player............

YES LOL I VOTE FOR BBR RULESET

, and player experience only matters to a certain point.

YOU ARE A SCr00B IT MATTERS ROFL

When determining the stagelist, in some cases my meager experience is enough (PTAD, for example, takes very little examination to see "oh look I can dodge these cars, no problem") or nobody has enough experience as of yet (DP being "broken" as an example).

hmmm.... so. your meager experience has given you the opportunity to play people who actually you know. DONT SUCK *** AT THIS GAME. you know people that actually will gay you in a tournament setting FOR MONEY on these gay *** stages. you have no idea what the **** youre even saying, because you havent been put in these situations. i can not get gayed on ****ing port down. doesnt mean the stage isnt completely stupid *** hell and ban worthy.

also, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD dont bring up mikeray on wifi as a manner of experience. tournament pressure vs wifi friendlies LOL

Also, you guys are always so **** worried about MK. You're scared of him getting better counterpicks, scared ****less that he's going to overpower the metagame if you don't get two counterpicks against him per round, and obviously worried about his planking. If you're worried he ***** the stagelist, here are the two stages you should try to get banned: Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar. Because I guarantee, no stage the BBR recommends to be legal is better for him than those. [/qoute]

people are scared of mk WITH 9 NUETRALS YOU F*****. nobody gives a **** about mk on the other stages good players already know this. THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY HAVING GARBAGE, LUCK BASED AND EXTREMELY BROKEN STAGES.

If you're so worried about MK, legalize Pictochat (mediocre/poor MK stage), YI(M) (outright terrible MK stage), Onett (again, pretty bad for MK), Pirate Ship (he can't gimp you, he has no spikes for the water, and his gimping just DOES NOT WORK. You will live forever against him here; he seriously has trouble killing on this stage. He can rudder camp, but he can't counter it effectively. Pirate Ship is stupidly bad for MK), Luigi's Mansion (live forever against him) or similar stages that are just outright bad for him.

you have ZERO idea what youre talking about.

people dont want pictochat BECAUSE IT IS RANDOM. FACT. END.

YI(M) has a ******** *** walkoff that people prolly dont want to deal w/ but in all honesty. i have no exp on this stage so i wont comment

onett oh god the ics/diddy/olimar/infinites/gayness that should occur on this stage >_>

pirate ship - mk can actually keep dairing you across the water until you die LOL. also, the amount of skill on this stage is SOOOO ********. ive seen m2k lose to ****ing master dave by picking toon link throwing one bomb and sitting in the water, and then spiking him over and over. infact, ive seen him beat a LOT of players many times using this strategy just getting free wins. >_> matches ALWAYS went to time

LM - METAKNIGHT DOES NOT NEED TO KILL YOU. the stage is gay enough he can run away the whole time and win.

And finally, I'd really like to say this. If you are not willing to try this moveset, you are stymieing the growth of the competitive environment.

have you ever considered the fact that you are instead doing what you are saying? its kinda funny. many of these stages where legal in 2008, and where slowly banned due to many problems on them. youre just rewinding a process that we as a community went through already.

also, if you arent willing to you know. ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND TRY THE CURRENT RULESET then id like to see you talk again later.

This goes beyond "nah, we'd rather not" and into the range of pure idiocy-you haven't given it a fair shot, and yet you're already denying its possibility to be good right out of the starting gate.

hence we did this in 08. i dont mind revision, i do mind people who dont have any skills telling people to revise stuff though. if you walk into a martial arts dojo, you dont go and tell him how to punch/kick because you saw it the proper way in a youtube video and its progressive. you learn how to do what you are taught, and once you master that you can expand upon it.

You are saying "we refuse even consider suggestions from those who know a lot about the game on how to play it well".

read a manual -> beat m2k -> profit?

You are being ridiculously closed-minded, and your regions will likely fail horribly at MLG this year, next year, and continuing into the future, because MLG is not scrubby and they will be running this or a very similar stagelist.

people have learned these stages, and if they havent, many tournies around mlg time run the rulesets to you know.... REFRESH themselves on the ruleset. people still dont want to play with garbage 99% of the time.

If you think these stages are really that bad, prove it.

i could you know, say the reverse. lawl

Go to your TOs, tell them "please run a tournament with these stages so we can show that these stages are bad to the rest of the world", and then go start abusing people with broken strategies on these stages. If Distant Planet is really that bad, you should be winning every game you counterpick your opponent to on it. If Luigi's Mansion is truly that broken, you should be living to 200 every stock and showing this off. If Green Greens has broken strategies and tactics, abuse them and we will change our minds. If PTAD's cars are truly too much of a distraction to get used to and change the flow of game that much then why can I avoid them when I'm a mediocre low-level player then SHOW US. We are only holding the stance that any competitive game has had before us-only ban what is truly needed. If you show the BBR why a stage absolutely needs to be banned, then the BBR will ban it, and we'll stop supporting the stage.

we saw enough inconsistency in the stages years ago to decide to ban them. just because youre late to the party and all the alcohol is gone doesnt mean we have to pick our drunk selves up and manage to drive all the way out and buy you some.

 

[-Vocal-]

hmmm.... so. your meager experience has given you the opportunity to play people who actually you know. DONT SUCK *** AT THIS GAME. you know people that actually will gay you in a tournament setting FOR MONEY on these gay *** stages. you have no idea what the **** youre even saying, because you havent been put in these situations. i can not get gayed on ****ing port down. doesnt mean the stage isnt completely stupid *** hell and ban worthy.

also, PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD dont bring up mikeray on wifi as a manner of experience. tournament pressure vs wifi friendlies LOL

have you ever considered the fact that you are instead doing what you are saying? its kinda funny. many of these stages where legal in 2008, and where slowly banned due to many problems on them. youre just rewinding a process that we as a community went through already.

also, if you arent willing to you know. ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND TRY THE CURRENT RULESET then id like to see you talk again later.

we saw enough inconsistency in the stages years ago to decide to ban them. just because youre late to the party and all the alcohol is gone doesnt mean we have to pick our drunk selves up and manage to drive all the way out and buy you some.

BPC, if I'm not mistaken a lot of these stages (Luigi's for one) were banned in the early days of Brawl because they were deemed broken. It's not as if teching and SDI were unheard of then - the same tools people have to combat things now are the same as they were then. If people want to use that as a basis for argument, do not call them idiots, scrubs, or any other negative title because of it. And do not reply to them saying "We banned stages too hastily then as well" and call them names on that account either - there is merit in their arguments and you should not insult them.

Second, I finally figured out a little while ago why there is so much malice aimed at you and your opinions: you do not enter tournaments. This means that you do not have your hopes and dreams demolished by a bat. This means that you will never be held by port priority into a PTAD car. This means that you never have to suffer the extreme consequences that can happen if one mistake is made, and it if for this reason that people do not feel they can identify with your positions - you cannot identify with theirs.

Orion's post is the perfect example of both of these things I said previously.

 

[swordgard]

To anyone who saw me insult the community as a whole, that is my stance, not the BBRs.

And for the love of god science people stop strawmanning and/or justifying your arguments through popularity fallacies.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

- I think it was a mistake to have FD considered acceptable as a stage ONLY if the stage list was expanded to 7 or more. I think FD is a clear candidate for a 5 stage list spot. The obvious arguments against FD being that close of a starter/being a starter at all are that it's too advantaged for ground characters and that it's a strong CP for a lot of characters. On the flip side, FD along with BF is the only real stage that does nothing in terms of affecting normal gameplay. The stages are static, no hazards random or otherwise, etc. These stages are the closest you can get to Player vs Player in Brawl, and I personally think that is the direction Brawl needs to go JUST for starter stages because of the importance of Game 1 in a set. I am more lenient (but still probably considered conservative) when it comes to the CP stages. Brawl IMO should be more than just FD/BF/Similar stages, but I feel we go too far sometimes and go deep into the ridiculous CP jungle.

"Normal" gameplay?

What is the purpose of game one? Is the purpose to provide an even playing field for both players, or a playing field that completely does not interfere with gameplay? The former seems a little more accurate to me. Game one is the most important game in the match. It's critical, in other words, that neither player has an extraneous advantage.

Final Destination is perhaps the second-most polar stage in the game (after Brinstar). If you are an aerial char, you're pretty ****ed; if you're a ground char, you have a massive advantage (not because you're almost guaranteed a win automatically, but rather because you aren't ****ed with and because you aren't disadvantaged; see this post for details). The fact that it made it onto that list above stages like Frigate and PS2 is astonishing for me. And yet, you say it should be a starter sooner? Even though it's so ridiculously unbalanced? Again, FD game 1 is like Brinstar game 1. That's how polar it is.

Keep in mind that if you go with the other philosophy, you end up with FD and BF (and maaaybe SV) as your only starter stages. AKA the typical 3-starter stage list, which ridiculously favors certain characters. This is beyond unfair. The fairest method yet created is to strike from the whole legal stagelist, but that has time issues. If anything, your method is especially bad for game 1 because it favors certain characters over others. Remember, the wider the starter list, the less likely character bias is to exist.

Now, that is my biggest complaint about the starters. I'm not a huge fan of the 9 stage starter list because frankly I feel that past 7 stages you start roaming into questionable CP land. Delfino in particular I think is a definite CP, and is only added because people feel it is more "neutral" than other CP stages. Castle Siege and Halberd are more rational IMO, but even they aren't clear starter quality at least in my eyes. Past 9 stages I think is a mistake, and I would not advise anyone going past that for 2 main reasons. 1- You go into clear CP territory and makes them selectable Game 1 stages.

Is Frigate starter quality? No, but I bet it would be added on a 11 stage starter list. This becomes even more ridiculous past that point. The 2nd- The more "liberal" stages you add on a starter list, the stronger MK is. This is because there are more stages that favor him than those that do not. It's poor game balance yes, you can't change that. However, when you think about adding more stages in, the ones you think about adding tend to mostly favor MK with few standing out that are bad for him. In a 5 stage starter list, you could have FD, BF, SV, YI, whatever. MK is wary of FD obviously, and maybe SV/BF for some matchups, and past that point he doesn't really have many stages that he has to get rid of besides Matchup specific ones. Now, past that point though, what do you get? Stages like Delfino, Frigate, RC, Norfair, Distant Planet, etc. How many of those stages favor MK, and how many do not? A disproportionate amount favor him over hurting him.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10875264&postcount=2179 <- MK deserves a buff because he's the best in the game (or rather, shouldn't be nerfed because of it)

Yes, MK gets better as we remove artificial nerfs to him. Whodathunkit. We should not nerf any character like this. If it results in poor game balance... ban the ****er. Or rather, wait until we are completely sure that it's necessary. I'm not convinced, and it seems rather large parts of the community aren't either.
Also, you say frigate is not starter quality. Care to back that up? I'd actually throw it in there above Halberd (don't say bias-this actually is a good MK stage due to sharking above all) or FD. It's really not that bad. And again, define a counterpick? Define a starter? What is the actual difference? I'd call the key part being "how advantaged certain characters become" with slight caveats to randomness. But maybe you think differently?

This means that the longer your list, the more strikes you have to eat up on stages he is good at. If you are given 5 strikes, but MK is good on 6-7 of the stages total, what happens is that now he gets to guarantee start on a stage that favors him. This is a bad shift in the metagame, with as much of a problem as MK is now. Ban worthy or not in your own personal opinion, it's hard to argue that he would do worse with a larger, more diverse stage list when the stages added favor him more than they hurt him (past 9 stages this is really obvious. At 9 it's debatable, but I personally think he does better on 9 than on 5). This may become evident with the 9 stage starter list as time passes on. Some people say it's clear right now that he's instantly better, others may see MLG results or stage preferences at larger tournaments and say it doesn't make him noticeably better, etc.

Except we're not really allowed to balance the game like this. Or rather, we shouldn't. It's a surgical entry that doesn't even really help balance beyond one character. Instead of doing crap like that, why not do one of these two things:
-Make MK unable to cp/strike stages. Boom, surgical change that actually FIXES **** instead of a bandage around a severed head.
-Ban MK.

-Now for CP stages and my thoughts:



I think the big part of some of these CP stages is that people are not creative enough in ways of exploiting the stage layout, or that there just aren't enough tournament videos of something stupid happening on it for people to widely go "Hey, ok this should be banned, makes sense now". Think about scrooging: why did it take the community THAT long to realize MK had immense potential for gaying it up by simply gliding UNDER the stage not grabbing the edge? We all knew he could do it, we have seen people mix up going under the stage or missing a shuttle loop M2K style and recovering on the other edge. No one put 2 and 2 together and said "Hey, wait a minute, let's go under the stage not to recover, but for other means" until M2K showed people apparently. For stages like Norfair, Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Green Greens, etc. I think that people either have the hard "Don't believe it until I see it" mentality where without a bunch of tournament videos they will not say there is a problem, even if on a theory or fairly realistic thought train level it looks like the stage has issues, OR people genuinely do not see what may be possible on the stages.

Both, in my case. I played around on DP today and found that link could counter my camping under the main platform (the circle was a little trickier). I pulled it off with falco. Admittedly, my opponents were **** and I would like to try this against people who are actually good players. If it hasn't been done yet, then it's probably not an issue yet. You are always the one arguing against theorycraft; let's see some proof. Let's see a random winning every match on his counterpick by abusing gimmicky bull****. We see **** like that, we revise our opinions.

Norfair: Meh. I wasn't thrilled about this one honestly. This has been legal in Texas for some time. Was on and off. Dallas tended not to have it legal, Houston did. Relating back to those past and current experiences with the stage, I can honestly say that I think it is ban worthy because of how gameplay changes. Sharking and Planking on this stage are really strong IMO. I hear arguments that planking is weaker because the platforms line up with the higher edges, and see this is where I don't think people are creative enough in seeing why that isn't a solution/deterrent to the problem. Going under the stage, and fooling around with various MK reverse shuttle loop/side B/Regular Shuttle Loop/Tornado/Glide/Down B/etc options should give an idea of just how incredibly diverse and safe some of the options on that stage are. Or how gay tornadoing under someone's shield on the platform, then moving to the other side of the stage and watching them not be able to punish you because the stage layout makes this impossible. How people miss that, IDK. Even tossing out any Lava mishaps, as there are some decent arguments on them not being an issue, I think that the stage layout alone promotes very silly and bad things for competitive Brawl. Maybe I'm seeing problems that aren't there. Maybe the stage is fine and we will see this with it being more widespread. I trust my gut feeling on this however, and I personally would not be surprised if this ended up being rebanned and a LOT of people saying "I told you so".

Well first of all, gameplay changes on every stage. Let's just get rid of that argument, eh? It starts becoming valid around Mario Bros as a ban criteria in and of itself. This is the only stage where planking really doesn't work perfectly. You claim running away/planking the whole game is an issue... I fail to see how on a stage that is regularly covered with lava all the time. Got any vids?
The stage layout in and of itself, with no other hazards, would probably be a slight issue. Ironically, it's the much-maligned hazards that fix the issues, often giving you very little place to run. Also, it's not only not as strong for MK as a few other stages, but it's also a very strong counterpick for Link and G&W among others.

<stuff I agree with>

PS2 for starter.

Mansion: Oh lord. This stage. Well, this was legal in Texas quite a bit too. Banned because we thought gameplay got really gay on this stage. IDK if it was just our region at the time, but most of the time we saw this stage as a MK frenzy. I guarantee you most matches involving this stage were either Double MK, or MK main vs poor soul of another character. IMO MK is the clear "nagging pain" of this stage. Not DK, ROB, Olimar, Snake, etc. I hear many characters supposed to be ******** on this stage, but most of them also have clear CP characters against them. DK against Dedede on this stage? No. Snake against Wario? Catching him would be ********. Olimar against MK? Eww. And so on. There were some back and forth arguments over the stage being destroyable. There was the argument that destroying the stage would stop most problems the stage has. Then again, if you are having to spend time changing the stage to make it more "neutral" for it to be acceptable, that would indicate that maybe you shouldn't play there to begin with. The main problem with destroying the stage is that the stage regenerates fairly fast, and wasting time until it does so is not hard for characters who abuse the new stage layout. I just find that most gameplay either revolves around abusing the stage layout, destroying the stage layout so that the other guy can't abuse it, or waiting for it to regenerate so that you can go back to abusing it. There is little "Hey let me go try to hit that guy regularly" when you can run or make him come to you or run from him. Running is a BIG problem of the stage. Maybe just me seeing the gayness aura that starkly portrays it as unacceptable, maybe I'm seeing too much of something that isn't there, idk. From what I have already seen and done with the stage though, I do strongly believe it's not just me seeing something really gay, but there something being really gay about this stage to start with.

Got vids? LM is one of the stages even I'm on the fence on (along with DP), but I dunno.

Green Greens: Another lovely stage that was legal quite a bit in Texas, and is now mostly off besides MLG like stage lists that include it. I think the stage is dumb, and camping becomes even more ********. I hear the argument that MK is bad on this stage, even when it really looks like he is fine on it. Under the stage are ******** scrooging and planking issues from even "regular" planking characters like G@W, Pit, Jiggs. MK himself is pretty absurd in that he has many more safer options for doing this with the extra edges in play. There are many different things he can do, some of them easier to explain in video form. I will try to make a video about the things he can do and post it so that maybe what I am trying to say makes more sense.

Would help. Skipping DP cuz I agree with you.

Yoshi's Island Melee: I felt this should be full banned. Counter/Banned is much better than being full blown counter obviously lol. This stage many people disagree about what is a problem/what is not. My personal opinion is that the middle pit is a problem for planking, and that the Cave of Immortality effect of the stage is not beneficial to gameplay. CG's and Walkoffs not really a problem IMO, some argue it is, I would not. Dedede himself has so many counters in the present metagame that even on a stage like Bridge of Elden, you could not say the walkoff was a problem because Diddy/Falco/IC's/etc would come along and make him look foolish. Now, the 1 main issue about them IS camping the walkoffs. That I agree can be a problem. But on slanted walkoffs I actually think that is not very strong because you can hit under then easier without worrying about the Bthrow/whatever move or you can try to DI into the slant when it happens.

Seeing as almost everywhere is still gonna have LGLs, planking in the pit seems like a non-issue to me. The cave of life effect is present, but can be destroyed temporarily with just a moment's effort, so that seems like a moot point. I really haven't had any trouble with my games on this stage other than "my opponent doesn't like this stage and prefers LRAStart". It's also a fairly ****ty stage for MK, something to keep in mind.

Port Town: Oh Lord. Lawdy Mista What haz happend?

This stage you will probably hear a lot of public BBR grunting about. This stage is probably the biggest one in terms of people going "Why is this legal?". Some stages like Pictochat, there were arguments and people would say "Ok I see what you are saying, I just disagree with stage philosophy or disagree that the problems you listed are too much for the stage to be legal". For Port Town, it seemed more like "Ok why would you want this legal, regardless of whether it feels competitively acceptable to add it?". The stage feels more like "We can, therefore we shall" not "We should, we shall". Like because it was an option, we had to use it.

Well... actually, yes. Legalizing MK? We can, therefore we shall. We don't have to, but we do. Hmm...
PTAD has no real problems. The cars drive in a solid pattern (http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=217615), have safe zones on each transformation, and are perfectly avoidable. There is no degenerate strategy. The lack of ledges sucks for tethers, but there's that stupid floor there anyways so they don't get autogimped (and honestly, let's compare-you're offstage and MK is ready to react to you on FD or on PTAD. You're Ivysaur or Olimar. Which is worse for you?)

There are some problems with the stage. Disagreements over the severity or the existence of these was definitely there. Lack of edges, powerful car hazards. Some people thought the cars were too much because they killed too soon in their opinion. Others felt they didn't kill at ridiculous %'s, so they were fine. Others said yes they kill really ********, but you can avoid them reasonably in their opinion. Lack of edges some said yes this is a big problem. Some said lack of edges isn't necessarily a problem, look at stages with walkoffs or stages with extended durations of no edges being fine for gameplay.

I think no edges for a majority of gameplay, when factoring in cars and traveling hurting/gone terrain makes strong edgeguarding and recovering characters being a bit too powerful. MK loves the stage, no problem recovering back and anyone who might need the edge against MK will just take it hard offstage against him. I also think the cars are a problem because regardless of your intent, you have to obey what the stage dictates or severely get punished. Im not talking about "Follow up the Delfino platform while it rises or die", Im talking about "SWEET JESUS GET OUT OF OUR WAY" takes instant priority over fighting the opponent. Even if there are safe spots, the very fact that you have to go clearly out of your way to avoid them doesn't seem amusing to me.

In this case we just disagree, and I turn to philosophy. Feh. I still fail to see the issue with the stage when the hazards are all easily avoidable, non-random events. The ledge is the real issue, but that also has a factor that at least helps with it.

So...you expect every member of the backroom to know every detail about every character and stage in the game, as well as everything each of those characters can do on every stage? Tell me: what is a Luigi player's strategy on 75m against a Zelda player? You will not know the answer to this because it is not relevant to competitive Brawl. The same is so with backroom members; if a stage is not legal in his/her region, it is not relevant to their competitive Brawl experiences and so they will not know as much about it as someone in whose region it is legal. Backroom members are human too; to expect them to know everything is asking too much

To an extent. Expecting them to know about how top tiers deal with stages that are either normally legal or borderline (say, knowing how Falco deals with MK on PTAD) seems fairly reasonable to assume. Or at least many of them. >.< But not knowing anything about how the stage works... weak.

"We expect that a smart player can get around the bombs on Pirate ships, the stupid creature on Distant, the cars on port town, the lava on norfair, etc etc.."

God, people just want to play the game. Not playing while they have to fear stupid hazards coming up out of nowhere. It's annoying enough to play characters with annoying projectiles such as Falco or Pit. With those annoying stages with annoying hazards it only makes it works. It'll more look like a avoid-the-hazards-minigame then brawl.

Funny, because what's the name of that game where like 30 of the 40 available stages have arbitrarily random effects, almost all of them have serious hazards, and you are expected to be able to deal with the stage? I coulda sworn that it was super smash bros brawl, but apparently I'm wrong... Help me out here, anyone?

Orion, I'll respond to your post very soon.

 

[ADHD]

swordgard I thought you might know the game but apparantly not. I'll classify you with MMM, or the other 5 randoms from the BBR now.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Notice how your username is blue.

Anything wrong with that?

 

[So Fatal]

guess you can't joke around on an online forum cause the cyber police will catch you!

 

[DMG]

When I say gameplay changes on those stages, maybe I don't make it clear to what extent they change. I'm not talking about merely "Oh there is a platform/moving terrain, now air characters like it", I'm talking about "The best strategies revolve around not fighting the opponent, but abusing the stage layout in such a manner that the opponent has to follow suit or lose."

You should not see random scrub beating good player on these stages. You cannot realistically say the same for *most* of the Banned stages (Wario Ware and Hyrule if you give the Scrub MK and the Pro Ganon or something really skewed on purpose, maybe). Do you know for a fact if Scrub A could beat M2K on Mario Circuit or Mario Bros or Bridge of Elden or Corneria or Big Blue/etc? No, it's likely that will not happen. However, among educated people, games boil down into whoever abuses the best gay strategy that was possible because of the stage. I'm not saying a local player in my Region could insta win against me on some of those now Legal CP stages. What I am saying is that if I played Razer or Gnes or someone similar, I COULD insta win against them unless they followed suit. On Norfair, I could easily say that I can beat one of them on the stage unless they fought back doing the same exact thing, with the same limited pool of characters who realistically even have a shot at stopping it. Diddy or Falco on that stage, and give me MK? Yes please!

YI Melee is not crap for MK. That is a common misconception. You will see that in tournament matches.

As for FD, I've already explained my stance on starters. You just happen to disagree with it.

 

[AllyKnight]

swordgard I thought you might know the game but apparantly not. I'll classify you with MMM, or the other 5 randoms from the BBR now.

nugguh ur dumb as hell dont try to think you're a smart *** SG > you in knownledge ;P

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

nugguh ur dumb as hell dont try to think you're a smart *** SG > you in knownledge ;P

Well he is ADHD...

 

[Orion*]

I am sorry, I guess we should be catering more to scrubs I guess.

by allowing scrub stages. yes you should.

in all seriousness. if youre allowing this. CAN I PLEASE HAVE HANENBOW BACK FOR THE LOVE OF GOD

 

[Vex Kasrani]

I would like my favorite stage, which is Summit, legal please,

Tell me how it's bannible!

 

[Life]

I would like my favorite stage, which is Summit, legal please,

Tell me how it's bannible!

Circle camping. And fish I guess, but mainly circle camping.

Spoiler

Obvious sarcasm

Also, do I need to repeat Sirlin's definition of "scrub" yet again?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I would like my favorite stage, which is Summit, legal please,

Tell me how it's bannible!

Can't grab ledges, fish is OHKO, Ice (I think)

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Circle camping. And fish I guess, but mainly circle camping.

Spoiler

Obvious sarcasm

Also, do I need to repeat Sirlin's definition of "scrub" yet again?

Although I see the sarcasm, I'd like to point out that on norfair, Sonic can spin dash between the top 2 platforms and I don't know of any characters that can stop this really? I watched Speed(Sonic) do this to DJscribz(MK) at MLG, and surprisingly, the MK picked the stage! Also, with no ledge grab limit, Planking is just as good as circle camping, if not better.

Can't grab ledges, fish is OHKO, Ice (I think)

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, PTAD, sounds like it. Ya there's ice and when the mountain moves towards the water gravity changes, JUST LIKE PS2! Ice is also on PS2, and Car's and klap trap **** just like the fish.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, PTAD, sounds like it. Ya there's ice and when the mountain moves towards the water gravity changes, JUST LIKE PS2! Ice is also on PS2, and Car's and klap trap **** just like the fish.

On PTAD, the track can help you, and you can go through the main platform. In addition, the cars aren't OHKO'S ad can be shielded if you get caught in the storm.

I never said the gravity change was the reason it's banned.

Why the hell would you bring up the klaptraps?! They are very hard to get hit by, and they appear ever 10 seconds.

 

[Suspect]

Although I see the sarcasm, I'd like to point out that on norfair, Sonic can spin dash between the top 2 platforms and I don't know of any characters that can stop this really? I watched Speed(Sonic) do this to DJscribz(MK) at MLG, and surprisingly, the MK picked the stage! Also, with no ledge grab limit, Planking is just as good as circle camping, if not better.



hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, PTAD, sounds like it. Ya there's ice and when the mountain moves towards the water gravity changes, JUST LIKE PS2! Ice is also on PS2, and Car's and klap trap **** just like the fish.

I can't wait to see what someone from the bbr says to try to counter this.

 

[Kewkky]

Just so people know, I'm willing to bet cold, hard money AT LEAST 1 BBR member went into a stage discussion thread, saw that the voting favored what he wanted, just left it at that since one more vote wasn't gonna make a difference in that stage, and went to vote on the other stages that didn't favor what they wanted. That might explain why the "number of votes =/= number of BBR members", if anyone's wondering.

Also, not every BBR member wanted the stage list to turn out the way it is (as it's been said before). Remember that there was voting, and the majority would win. If you see YI:M as a counter, it means that the majority of members who voted wanted it to be a counterpick. It doesn't mean the whole of BBR wanted it as a counterpick, it just means that the ones who wanted it banned didn't gather enough votes compared to the ones who wanted it counter... And same thing applies to other pieces of the ruleset: not all the BBR members feel the same way about how it turned out. Me, to use a metaphor to project my thoughts, I'd have to say I was expecting a nice-and-simple lemon-lime combination, and instead got a fruit punch in the end.

In the same way that there's clashing ideals outside of the BBR between members in the Tier List Discussion/Ruleset Discussion/MK Discussion, there's also clashing ideals within the BBR. It just so happens that the BBR members have proven to be better than the rest of the community in a combination of resourcefulness/debating skills/player skill/experience. It doesn't mean you guys are bad (please don't take it this way, i'm just trying to explain things), it just means that overall, the members are a step ahead of you. You might know more about certain stages than them, you might run better tourneys than half the people in there, but I can assure you, they know more overall about Brawl than you (and this is excluding the obvious outliers, since we have some of the best players in there, as well as some of the best tournament organizers).

 

[Vex Kasrani]

On PTAD, the track can help you, and you can go through the main platform. In addition, the cars aren't OHKO'S ad can be shielded if you get caught in the storm.

This may be my friend! However, you are never forced onto the lower part of the stage level with the water for the fish to ever reach you ever! Theres also an iceblock that can hit you on the stage slightly on the left side under the gaint platform, but it can be destroy before it falls and has a set time before falling! Also, against the fish, unless you're spiked, you can generally get out of the water before the fish gets to you! I understand this stage better then most!

Why the hell would you bring up the klaptraps?! They are very hard to get hit by, and they appear ever 10 seconds.

You're right my good friend! I was simply comparing it's power to the fish!

 

[Flayl]

Summit has that Shin Onigashima music which makes it a competitive stage.

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

I can't to see what someone from the bbr says to try to counter this.

You can't say that they don't have a response just because they didn't respond In 5 min.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

You can't say that they don't have a response just because they didn't respond In 5 min.

I'm actually making a video right now to prove why this stage should be legal!

 

[Life]

Although I see the sarcasm, I'd like to point out that on norfair, Sonic can spin dash between the top 2 platforms and I don't know of any characters that can stop this really?

You don't even need to stop this. Just wait for the lava. And of course, the rules against stalling if the lava wasn't there.

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, PTAD, sounds like it. Ya there's ice and when the mountain moves towards the water gravity changes, JUST LIKE PS2! Ice is also on PS2, and Car's and klap trap **** just like the fish.

PTAD cars don't OHKO (although they ARE quite powerful), gravity change has nothing to do with Summit's ban (I was serious, the "obvious sarcasm" was directed at you), ice is fine. cars are regular not random (sometimes a little difficult to predict due to the fact that PTAD will skip transformations sometimes, but they are regular and you can see them coming) as is Klap Trap (every 10 seconds, although it seems to shift by a couple frames). Oh, and you can't circle camp on PTAD.

 

[Suspect]

You can't say that they don't have a response just because they didn't respond In 5 min.

I forgot the word "wait" tired johns.

so I basically said "I cant wait to see what they have to say to this"

 

[Vex Kasrani]

PTAD cars don't OHKO (although they ARE quite powerful), gravity change has nothing to do with Summit's ban (I was serious, the "obvious sarcasm" was directed at you), ice is fine. cars are regular not random (sometimes a little difficult to predict due to the fact that PTAD will skip transformations sometimes, but they are regular and you can see them coming) as is Klap Trap (every 10 seconds, although it seems to shift by a couple frames). Oh, and you can't circle camp on PTAD.

You can't ban somebody from running away with sonic the whole game! Sorry!

Fish can also be avoided, just jump out of the water as long as you were't spiked in and don't have a super slow recovery.

Serious about making the video btw.

And wouldn't circle camping be considered stalling like planking? If some characters really can't stop it???

 

[Shaya]

Oi, PS2 is ****ing legit.
Jesus vex, get better, scrub.

PS2 also has ledges, those are legit.

And I'm purposely being somewhat sarcastic here.
This BBR rule set is for Super Smash Bros Brawl, the mutliplayer platformer fighter,
if you would like a BBR approved "Platformer genre-less brawl competitive standard" than I can look into it for you guys.

Oh and everyone knew LGL wouldn't be apart of this.
Implementing the LGL is a check mate trap some of us have that if instated would prove how awesome swordgard, overswarm, I and some others are.

 

[Life]

You can't ban somebody from running away with sonic the whole game! Sorry!

Fish can also be avoided, just jump out of the water as long as you were't spiked in and don't have a super slow recovery.

Serious about making the video btw.

And wouldn't circle camping be considered stalling like planking? If some characters really can't stop it???

These are basically the same thing.

Also, what I said about the lava.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

These are basically the same thing.

Also, what I said about the lava.

Ah, you did catch me with that, I'll put more thought into my next post, silly me! You seriously cannot ban sonic from using his dash to get from one area to another that is very reachable, Metaknight however, can stop you with an invincible upair while on the ledge! And what can you consider stalling tbh!? What if MK is on the ledge for 30 seconds, then gets back on stage for less then 1 second, then hops right back onto the ledge, is that considered stalling? It's based on judgement, something you will need a judge to watch a match for, because you cannot prove it otherwise in a tournament setting!

And the lava does not prevent the Sonic from taking a few steps backwards on the top platform to avoid it, shielding it is also a possibility!

 

[Ussi]

Did Speed win the first match pretty easily? If so, he was just outplaying his opponent just as well then on Norfair. If not, MK probably was relying on What people say about MK on norfair instead of knowing the stage like you should.

 

[Life]

Ah, you did catch me with that, I'll put more thought into my next post, silly me! You seriously cannot ban sonic from using his dash to get from one area to another that is very reachable, Then why are you complaining about it if it's "reachable"? Metaknight however, can stop you with an invincible upair while on the ledge! And what can you consider stalling tbh!? What if MK is on the ledge for 30 seconds, then gets back on stage for less then 1 second, then hops right back onto the ledge, is that considered stalling? If it's undefeatable, yes. If he times out, that's what LGL is for (although it was removed in this list, I think TO's will still use it for now) It's based on judgement, something you will need a judge to watch a match for, because you cannot prove it otherwise in a tournament setting! And what's wrong with that?

And the lava does not prevent the Sonic from taking a few steps backwards on the top platform to avoid it, shielding it is also a possibility! But it does prevent him from stalling. Also, as I understand it, even if you're in the lava you can be hit by "certain projectiles" (I noticed this on a thread on the Ike boards, didn't specify). And when the lava recedes, you can chase it back and either break the Sonic's shield (if it hasn't already) or at least get to where he is, damaging him and breaking the stall. Then again, this entire statement is moot as you just admitted the Sonic is catchable.

So yeah.

Ten so yeahs.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

So yeah.

Ten so yeahs.

However Sonic is not catchable! I said he goes to reachable places, I did not say that he could be reached!

Once MK takes the ledge, it is his!

And only events like MLG really have judges, saying there should always be judges would be foolish! So I hope you're not implying this!

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

When I say gameplay changes on those stages, maybe I don't make it clear to what extent they change. I'm not talking about merely "Oh there is a platform/moving terrain, now air characters like it", I'm talking about "The best strategies revolve around not fighting the opponent, but abusing the stage layout in such a manner that the opponent has to follow suit or lose."

This is not really an issue on these stages. At least, not IMO. We ban stages that are truly like that.

You should not see random scrub beating good player on these stages. You cannot realistically say the same for *most* of the Banned stages (Wario Ware and Hyrule if you give the Scrub MK and the Pro Ganon or something really skewed on purpose, maybe).

Actually you can. Any stage with a solid circle to camp (Temple, NPC, requires virtually no skill to win on if you are fox and your opponent isn't faster than you (i.e. sonic, maybe CF and MK?). Shoot one lazer and run for the whole rest of the game. This is why we ban them-they make the game, competitively, obscenely shallow.

Do you know for a fact if Scrub A could beat M2K on Mario Circuit or Mario Bros or Bridge of Elden or Corneria or Big Blue/etc? No, it's likely that will not happen. However, among educated people, games boil down into whoever abuses the best gay strategy that was possible because of the stage. I'm not saying a local player in my Region could insta win against me on some of those now Legal CP stages. What I am saying is that if I played Razer or Gnes or someone similar, I COULD insta win against them unless they followed suit. On Norfair, I could easily say that I can beat one of them on the stage unless they fought back doing the same exact thing, with the same limited pool of characters who realistically even have a shot at stopping it. Diddy or Falco on that stage, and give me MK? Yes please!

All right? I suppose it's degree of severity. See, I don't think a random scrub could beat a top player on Bridge of Eldin/Corneria/stages that are banned due to wall/walkoff camping (see below in this post for details). However, it does make the list of realistically viable characters shrink to just DDD and people in top/high tier that counter him, which is, again, just too detrimental for the metagame to allow. And I'm personally worried about DP and LM for similar reasons, or rather an overcentralizing strategy, but time will tell.

YI Melee is not crap for MK. That is a common misconception. You will see that in tournament matches.

No I won't. Get real. There never will be tournament matches on that stage between people who are good at this game. Unless you plan on running this stagelist in texas sometime soon?

As for FD, I've already explained my stance on starters. You just happen to disagree with it.

Indeed.

I'm actually making a video right now to prove why this stage should be legal!

Guys, before we start strawmanning stages and claiming "PTAD IS AS BAD AS SUMMIT", how about we educate ourselves just a little bit?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=10844284&postcount=2084 <- What to ban

There's a **** good reason for every stage that is banned. And then there's stages like Norfair and PTAD.

Also, when you claim sonic can't be caught when spindashing between the two top stages on Norfair... Vids or it didn't happen. I honestly can't believe that. It's like saying MK can glide between the two. Plus, even if it is unbeatable (which it almost certainly isn't), it gets interrupted quite consistently.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

swordgard I thought you might know the game but apparantly not. I'll classify you with MMM, or the other 5 randoms from the BBR now.

Hah. You really have no idea what I voted for. You just assume that because I posted the list, I was campaigning for all of the stages you hate. Way to jump to conclusions.

Swordgard and I do share a similar philosophy though, yeah. I'm sure you think we just sit around trying to screw you over, but that's really not the case.

What you seem to miss out on is that this stage list is all about VOTING. I voted ban on plenty of these stages and I voted counter on a few-- we probably agree more closely on stage lists than you think.

You wouldn't know that though since you are so intent to pigeon hole me. I can't be mad that all of the stages I wanted banned didn't get banned, it's all about the votes. That means the majority didn't want them banned, so "thems the breaks", as they say.

And again, this is a RECOMMENDATION, not a forced list. It always has been. You are freaking out over NOTHING. Feel free to host tournaments with any stage list that you like. Also, feel free to click back to ruleset 2.0 and see that THE STAGELISTS ARE VIRTUALLY THE SAME. Some were just moved from Counter to C/B or from C/B to Counter.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This thread has been really fun, but the vast majority of the posts are reactionary, silly, and fallacious.

You aren't a good game designer, referee, teacher, or potential member of a governing body because you're good at the game (or kind of game) in question. Sometimes you're good at the game, but pretty dumb overall, or otherwise unqualified. "All the good players in the BBR would say X" is fallacious and outrageous and not helping you. If you disagree with the rule set, that's fine and you are certainly allowed to do that, but keep in mind that disagreeing doesn't automatically put you on some kind of moral and intellectual high ground even if you're a good player.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

No I won't. Get real. There never will be tournament matches on that stage between people who are good at this game. Unless you plan on running this stagelist in texas sometime soon?

Why is this stage even being considered then!?

Also, when you claim sonic can't be caught when spindashing between the two top stages on Norfair... Vids or it didn't happen. I honestly can't believe that. It's like saying MK can glide between the two. Plus, even if it is unbeatable (which it almost certainly isn't), it gets interrupted quite consistently.

Happened at MLG bud, and how is circle camping worse then MK planking!?

Also, MK's glide isn't as instant and fast as Sonic's spindash jump thingy, I don't know the proper wording for it, it's when you do downb, then hitting up on the c stick.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Why is this stage even being considered then!?

Because we feel that everywhere bans it unjustly. We feel that there's no reason to ban it, and that most of the reasons why it was banned were overblown overreactions to

Happened at MLG bud, and how is circle camping worse then MK planking!?

It isn't really. Neither is effectively beatable except on certain stages (for planking: stages without ledges, brinstar, norfair; for circle camping: stages without solid stages). MK planking falls under "stalling", AFAIK. And I support an MK-only LGL.