Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
I played Tristin Win back in the day, No-Idea, and Snakeee's Sheik.
DA BEST!
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Chain to Kick combos?
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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0
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Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
well according to this system my +4 could mean the same thing to me as +3 means to everyone else so technically it's not too lenient as they are at the very top of the +4 status MU too me whereas most of the other +4's are at the very bottom. besides those MUs are from my viewpoint so it's not like my opinion changes anything. and tbh those MUs are unwinnable for them anyways from my experiance as i have yet to ever lose to a bowser or ganon, hell i pretty much don't even lose stocks to them if play suuuuuper gay but i only play that gay in tourney 
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pikachu 0-deaths good characters though (fox, shiek, falco, who is the other one?) so of course it's not unwinnable for them because those characters all have the ability to actually space and zone. bowser and ganon, at least against pit, don't have any moves with more priority than pit's, he can move in and out as he pleases, he has a pseudo 0-death on both of them (if not he still has the CGs that go 48% on ganon and 52% on bowser) and they have no answer to his air camping or his planking.
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pikachu 0-deaths good characters though (fox, shiek, falco, who is the other one?) so of course it's not unwinnable for them because those characters all have the ability to actually space and zone. bowser and ganon, at least against pit, don't have any moves with more priority than pit's, he can move in and out as he pleases, he has a pseudo 0-death on both of them (if not he still has the CGs that go 48% on ganon and 52% on bowser) and they have no answer to his air camping or his planking.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
you still have a LOOOOONNGGG way to go...
i stopped reading here, this just means your wrong and you need to change you thought process so that its in line with the rest of us.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
all i can think of when i read this is, "you must join the machine. you must join the machine." lol what bugs me is i don't remember the name of the movie that's from, but anyway point being if i don't like the way the machine works, im not converting into it. lawl what the hell movie is that?
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Ah yea they ain't bad at least back when they played.
I have said like a million times before on the sheik and Zelda MU thing. They are ALL pretty close to even. The important thing was we wanted to show the order and that this is probably the biggest MU where playing both helps (other than maybe rob). Zelda probably does the worst (though not that bad cause D3 is fat and gets hit by her stuff easier than most). Sheik is pretty darn close to even she racks him up to like 90% for free she just doesn't kill him for forever (like D3 lives to 180%) but she can control the match pretty well if she does it right. But if you switch to zelda once hes in kill percents like 110% zelda is really good at netting that kill early. Its one of the few MUs where Zelda doesn't get destroyed after switching from sheik (most of sheiks bad MU's are bad for Zelda too). Playing both really helps and it makes sense if you consider that sheik goes about even with D3 and Zelda isn't far behind.
It also helps that neither are cgable. But the important thing to understand is they don't deviate that much. Shelda is a VERY slight advantage.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
Clai
Smash Lord
A super-aggressive MK absolutely wrecks Ganon. I'm not talking about a MK that mindlessly rushes in, either, I'm talking about a MK who uses his speed on both the ground and in the air (by that I mean Tornado and Glide Attack) to pressure Ganon enough to make a move, in which MK can just put Ganon in the air and combo Uairs into Aerial Shuttle Loop, and with its borked base knockback and MK's insane gimping capabilities, Ganon isn't coming back to the stage. Thankfully, M2K is the only one I've ever seen with that kind of aggressive gameplay, but once you see it, it's a slaughter.
If there's anyone that can go from -4 to -3 for Ganon, it would be Olimar. I used to advocate that Ganon wouldn't stand a chance against Olimar's perpetual camping, but looking at it now compared to something like Falco or Shiek, Olimar is starting to look just open enough that Ganon can make his life just that little bit easier.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
You shouldn't lose to Bowser or Ganon in the first place because they're bad characters and Pit is average. It doesn't mean they have 0 chance against Pit.well according to this system my +4 could mean the same thing to me as +3 means to everyone else so technically it's not too lenient as they are at the very top of the +4 status MU too me whereas most of the other +4's are at the very bottom. besides those MUs are from my viewpoint so it's not like my opinion changes anything. and tbh those MUs are unwinnable for them anyways from my experiance as i have yet to ever lose to a bowser or ganon, hell i pretty much don't even lose stocks to them if play suuuuuper gay but i only play that gay in tourney
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pikachu 0-deaths good characters though (fox, shiek, falco, who is the other one?) so of course it's not unwinnable for them because those characters all have the ability to actually space and zone. bowser and ganon, at least against pit, don't have any moves with more priority than pit's, he can move in and out as he pleases, he has a pseudo 0-death on both of them (if not he still has the CGs that go 48% on ganon and 52% on bowser) and they have no answer to his air camping or his planking.
Pikachu doesn't 0-to death characters. He just cg's them for awhile. He can't kill Fox, Falco, or Wolf after the Cg ends. He can Usmash, which can lead into a thunder if predicted, but that's not guaranteed.
Cgs on Ganon and Bowser of those similar percentages, Falco has on almost the entire cast. Falco can cg Wolf/Fox to 45% into a Dair, which means they will take a max of 60%. Cg's (That go only to around 50's) aren't as significant in defining that a matchup is unwinnable.
I don't think Pit is 99-1 vs anyone, which is what +4 implies (Around that). Ganon and Bowser can also beat air planking by just jumping and Uair (Ganon) or Fair (Bowser). I swear the people who sit on the ground and just shield when Mk is above them Dair'ing have no clue. Dair camping is horrid vs almost everyone.
Actually, Pika has a guaranteed footstool (uair? Pretty sure it's a footstool) on Fox after the last dthrow for a QAL into Thunder/charged usmash/whatever.
/nitpick
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
OMG BUT SDI 
oh right that's what it meant
mada mada sounds good enough on it's own tho.
I still think its +3. There's no way i can back it up with theorycraft for obvious reasons. All I can say is MK's easier to hit than e.g. falco and olimar. n that's what it's all about with ganon. Well i guess i can say sh dair > mk's dashgrab, dash attack and forward roll (three viable approaches) :D
And it does 20+% and combos :D
Kuro~
Nitoryu Kuro
Pit can time out ganon w/o even trying. Bowser however, is more towards +3 cuz he's a bit faster, Up OoS, klaw, fire, better recovery, and heavier if im not mistaken.
Clai
Smash Lord
Walk up to Ganon, threaten those three approaches, shield the D-Air -> U-air, U-air, Shuttle Loop, follow Ganon because he'll likely be offstage, gimp him, GG. We're talking about Ganon here, who isn't going to be expecting a D-air from him?
A MK who plays sub-optimally is far, far easier to hit/defeat than Falco or Olimar because all Falco and Olimar have to do is throw out lasers/ Pikmin and run away. However, a MK who can play aggressively effectively will easily destroy Ganondorf compared to Falco or Olimar. IMO, it's not even a contest.
Oh, I'm sure I'm capable of it. I may use a suck-*** character, but I've gotten enough experience in the past 6-7 months that I wouldn't at all consider you an automatic loss by any means.
GOT ME. Surprisingly, Koolaid and I almost never play, if at all. If I can get to a tournament before my move to Oregon, I'll definitely MM Koolaid to examine the MU more closely.
Maharba the Mystic
Smash Master
i agree with you. pit does not 99-1 anybody and if that is what +4 is supposed to mean then ill add them to in my head to +3, it just doesn't feel right that they should be in the same spot as DK who im very solid in my opinion is hard countered by pit. if pit just keeps good spacing DK has no options. i mean come on our jab cancells his fsmash for crying out loud. out utilt beats his dsmash or clanks it if they aren't close together and it is frame 2. it's like, as long as pit knows how to play against DK and doesn't mess up, it's a free match.
like if there was a 2.5 in between +2 and +3 i would totally put DK there because the one thing DK has going for him is that he can get a kill in early on pit IF the pit messes up bad (and i mean you have to have just not been spacing at all if this happens). the other 2 it's like, what can they even do against pit? suicide? pit shouldn't be a stock behind anyways.
but for now ill group them together because if +4 just has to mean like 90:10 or whatever then ya, that aint pit. but 70:30 is definately around what it would be at if you think of it that way. seagull you should PM me the mindset for what the number's should mean so that im not offending people with my apparently wrong mindset because i interpretted this chart way differant than anyone else apparently. then i can give you a more acurate MU list for pit as well and hopefully people will be able to see my logic on his MUs
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
70-30 is basically hard counter. 60-40 is soft counter. 90-10 is near unwinnable. The numbers indicated in the matchup spread of + and - 1 through 4 only signify the hardness of a matchup. -4 is nearly unwinnable.
Based on matchups, in know way to Falcon stand a real chance against Pikachu. This is correct because Falcon has no projectile, he can be cg'd till around 70 I believe with JUST Dthrow, and he has limited approach options. Everytime he has to up b he can possibly be punished by thunder. He also has problems killing Pikachu. Ganon is only -3 because all of Ganon's moves are kill moves. He moves similar to Falcon in terms of approaches, but one punish by Ganon is a lot of damage. I'm by no means saying Ganon should ever beat Pikachu though, cause he shouldn't.
D3 vs Link is listed here as -3. Unlike Pit vs Ganon where Pit cannot 0-to death Ganon, D3 can cg Link to the edge and grab release. This forfeits Links stock, which makes me wonder why that matchup isn't listed as unwinnable. I imagine grabs are avoidable. Pit's grab range is pathetic to begin with. Pit and Ganon have the most abysmal grab ranges in the game. I find that hilarious in Pit vs Ganon because both their grab ranges suck. Least Pit's broll is good.
Not gonna PM stuff. Everything I say has been out in the open and people/me have said it before. These numbers of + or - 1 to 4 only indicate the degree to the difficulty or easiness of a matchup. You shouldn't have to put a number on it.
-4:Nearly unwinnable
-3:Large disadvantage (Hard counter)
-2:Disadvantage (More or less soft counter)
-1:Slight disadvantage
0:Considered even
+1:Slight advantage
+2:Advantage (You soft counter them)
+3:Large advantage (You hard counter them)
+4:You shouldn't lose this matchup or you sugg.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
I might have posted my MU ratios in the other thread, but I gave two +4s for ZSS: Ganon and Jiggs.
+4 for Ganon is because of 0-60 CG to grab release walk off fair from which he can't really recover and also just because of how easy ZSS' basic gameplay overwhelms him.
+4 for Jigglypuff is because of how ****ing badly ZSS' moveset beats jiggs in every possible way and because GR -> fresh uair kills her at like 80.
But again, maybe I misunderstood what a +4 is supposed to be, it's more important that I get the ratios right than that I prove she has +4 MUs against terrible characters
+4 for Ganon is because of 0-60 CG to grab release walk off fair from which he can't really recover and also just because of how easy ZSS' basic gameplay overwhelms him.
+4 for Jigglypuff is because of how ****ing badly ZSS' moveset beats jiggs in every possible way and because GR -> fresh uair kills her at like 80.
But again, maybe I misunderstood what a +4 is supposed to be, it's more important that I get the ratios right than that I prove she has +4 MUs against terrible characters
For Jiggs, it depends:
How easily can ZSS hit and grab Jigglypuff? Does ZSS **** Wario, too? I would think it wouldn't be absolutely easy for either.
Only ZSS I played with Jigglypuff was ADHD... So no real experience.
How easily can ZSS hit and grab Jigglypuff? Does ZSS **** Wario, too? I would think it wouldn't be absolutely easy for either.
Only ZSS I played with Jigglypuff was ADHD... So no real experience.
Supermodel From Paris
Smash Hero
Tell you what. Tomorrow I'm going to a Smashfest of sorts and a guy there has a pretty decent Jiggs so I'll play more and give you a more honest assessment of things then. I haven't played a good Jiggs in a while.
I will say that I feel comparing the ZSS/Wario match-up to ZSS/Jigglypuff isn't correct though, since Jigglypuff has one or two major disadvantages that Wario doesn't have (mainly that ZSS' ground game actually works against Jiggs and quite well among other things).
I will say that I feel comparing the ZSS/Wario match-up to ZSS/Jigglypuff isn't correct though, since Jigglypuff has one or two major disadvantages that Wario doesn't have (mainly that ZSS' ground game actually works against Jiggs and quite well among other things).
ADHD
Smash Hero
What? Why would you belittle my zero suit?
Not belittling. You're the ONLY ZSS I've played with Jiggs ever, and only like 1 match. More like not-main + 1 match.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
Tagxy
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2007
- Messages
- 1,482
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Pikachu gets a footstool on Fox/Wolf out of the CG, then one or two lock moves > smash attack that will kill.
Maybe Falcon?
And I'm pretty sure Sheik... Maybe Pika CGs him enough to kill him... I dunno.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
Zelda can kill so therefore she does Well on Dedede
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Chain to Kick combos?
She has no viable/safe way to land a kill move on him unless he leaves himself open but you know, apparently being able to kill is enough to push that MU in her favor
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i think youre reading/interpreting that post wrong fuuj
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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Saw some people do this thought I would try it. IMO stuff,
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John12346
Smash Master
Feels more like this, imo...
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#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
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- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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You told me about these, tis good to differ in opinions it means discussion happens.
Why Snake for -1 though, that seems odd to me.
Why Snake for -1 though, that seems odd to me.
Alphicans
Smash Hero
Cause snake sucks =D.
I've never understood snake having a +2 over lucario personally. Seeing it at high level makes me question it even more.
I've never understood snake having a +2 over lucario personally. Seeing it at high level makes me question it even more.
snake counter picks YOSHI'S STORY.
IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE
Lucario faints.
I swear I only ever see Snake v Lucario on final destination haha.
IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE
Lucario faints.
I swear I only ever see Snake v Lucario on final destination haha.
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