Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Maharba the Mystic]

alright guys, i took the time to put the correct number interpretation into perspective and this is what i came up with. know that i include CP stages as part of a MU as they are very important to all MUs. i also researched MUs that i didn't have as much experiance in as others so that will account for my change of heart on olimar and some others you notice.

if you have any questions again, now that it takes proper consideration into the number system, go ahead and ask. all i ask is that it be kept civil. however again im at work so it will take a while to for me to respond


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2: (very borderline)
3:

 

[Alphicans]

This makes pit look like a high tier character.... +1 vs fox? Why? And why vs DDD?

Pit really goes even with falco and oli?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

From the pit's side here is how it goes down for us against fox.

what each character has on the other:

Pit:
1. Chaingrab at the beginning can easily lead to 40%-50% lead right off the bat (you can also combo fthrows>fsmash if you don't have room for full cg).
2. even though neither really “outcamps” each other, Pit’s arrows **** fox off stage (although pit can force the approach by camping his reflectors since he has the better projectile).
3. Pit overall out ranges and outprioritizes fox.
4. Pit is pretty much the only one who will be getting gimps in this MU due to his vastly superior recovery.
5. Jab, dtilt and AR wreck shop near the edge and on stage when used right due to range, priority, and the ability to stop his phantasm (jab and AR only for this tho).
6. Planking>fox

Fox:
1. DJC (double jab cancel), Dair, and Nair all lead into true combos for damage and kills.
2. Fox kills us way earlier with his oh so reliable usmash (outside of gimps).
3. he is faster than us and his reflector stops camping to a certain extent (but there is always the threat of OHKO if they sit in their reflector).
4. He can gimp us on stages like YI and PK Stadiums (where we can’t go around).

Overall while this is a pretty much in pit's slight advantage because in this MU there are a few things which allow pit to generally win this match up both on and off stage.

ON Stage:
Since everyone knows the ramifications that CGs have in any match lets just focus on normal gameplay (however i would like to note that it leads to pit's pseudo 0-death). On stage jab and dtilt are going to be pit's main tools against fox and he will be using them a lot. These keep fox away from pit while constantly allowing pit to reset spacing but do the nature of the moves fox can't really do anything in retalliation to them. Also sh dair and just using fair in general is pretty effective as a mix up again due to range and priority over fox. Also juggling with uair, usmash, utilt, and throws are pretty effective here. In the air while our aerials over all outrange his none of his aerials under estimated by us pit's. Obviously nair and dair combo and such, his uair and bair are effective kill moves, and his fair can damage AND kill if used properly (however it is highly unlikely due to how easy that move is to DI). However our nair eats his aerial moves for breakfast and as stated the rest out range/out prioritize his. Also pit's fair is a great spacer and bair can used to get kills and gimps if he is offstage due to it's long lasting hitbox and the nature of fox's recovery.

OFF STAGE

A fox off stage is a dead fox when playing pit. While he can shine stall to help deal with arrows, the fact is when he uses a jump or recovery move our arrows shut him down. Also jab and AR both when held in the line of his phantasm stops him and his recovery in his tracks. Mirror shield reflects fire fox. If he is recovering from below a fast falled bair will gimp or stage spike almost every time. Whereas pit can just go under the stage if he is in even a remotely bad situation. also pit's planking destroys fox and it allows us to keep the match at our pace.

all fox has in this MU is kill power and speed to allow him to get in reads if pit messes up. that's how it is, pit has to mess up, otherwise, fox can't really get inside pit to do the damage.

Against DDD:

we can cg him up to 47% and until he is past 30% we can fthrow>fsmash him for plenty of damage. DDD has to approach since we greatly out camp him. our jab (and hell even AR at times) wrecks him since the infinite beats his spot dodge and eats his shield away. we can sh nair him and practically guarantee a shield poke with enough time to retreat afterwords or nair through him again safely. we are one of the hardest to cg because if he messes up even a frame our WOI will stop him in his tracks and allow us to retreat plus since it will be near the ground when activated it get's wing refreshed so that even IF he could hit us out of it offstage, we still have all of our jumps and recovery. while he is heavy, our frame 2 utilt, our dair, our dthrow, and his recovery make hitting him with our bair easy and it will kill him around 140%. our WOI can stop him being able to grab the ledge out of his recovery and it is actually possible to reflect his recovery by jumping into his falling *** with mirror shield (it's hard on timing, but i've personally done it). his jumps are easy to eat with arrows and we can chase him far offstage with relative safety.

juggling DDD is pretty easy and gets us a lot of damage, his waddle dees aren't even a threat camp wise compared to arrows, and our multihit moveset beats him down. that's the MU in a nutshell anyways.

ill wait for a response before i talk about falco and oli (i have a lot of falco experiance as well as fox, olimar i am taking all the other pit mains' word on it because i don't play the MU enough)

 

[Judo777]

From the pit's side here is how it goes down for us against fox.

what each character has on the other:

Pit:
1. Chaingrab at the beginning can easily lead to 40%-50% lead right off the bat (you can also combo fthrows>fsmash if you don't have room for full cg).
2. even though neither really “outcamps” each other, Pit’s arrows **** fox off stage (although pit can force the approach by camping his reflectors since he has the better projectile).
3. Pit overall out ranges and outprioritizes fox.
4. Pit is pretty much the only one who will be getting gimps in this MU due to his vastly superior recovery.
5. Jab, dtilt and AR wreck shop near the edge and on stage when used right due to range, priority, and the ability to stop his phantasm (jab and AR only for this tho).
6. Planking>fox

Fox:
1. DJC (double jab cancel), Dair, and Nair all lead into true combos for damage and kills.
2. Fox kills us way earlier with his oh so reliable usmash (outside of gimps).
3. he is faster than us and his reflector stops camping to a certain extent (but there is always the threat of OHKO if they sit in their reflector).
4. He can gimp us on stages like YI and PK Stadiums (where we can’t go around).

Overall while this is a pretty much in pit's slight advantage because in this MU there are a few things which allow pit to generally win this match up both on and off stage.

ON Stage:
Since everyone knows the ramifications that CGs have in any match lets just focus on normal gameplay (however i would like to note that it leads to pit's pseudo 0-death). On stage jab and dtilt are going to be pit's main tools against fox and he will be using them a lot. These keep fox away from pit while constantly allowing pit to reset spacing but do the nature of the moves fox can't really do anything in retalliation to them. Also sh dair and just using fair in general is pretty effective as a mix up again due to range and priority over fox. Also juggling with uair, usmash, utilt, and throws are pretty effective here. In the air while our aerials over all outrange his none of his aerials under estimated by us pit's. Obviously nair and dair combo and such, his uair and bair are effective kill moves, and his fair can damage AND kill if used properly (however it is highly unlikely due to how easy that move is to DI). However our nair eats his aerial moves for breakfast and as stated the rest out range/out prioritize his. Also pit's fair is a great spacer and bair can used to get kills and gimps if he is offstage due to it's long lasting hitbox and the nature of fox's recovery.

OFF STAGE

A fox off stage is a dead fox when playing pit. While he can shine stall to help deal with arrows, the fact is when he uses a jump or recovery move our arrows shut him down. Also jab and AR both when held in the line of his phantasm stops him and his recovery in his tracks. Mirror shield reflects fire fox. If he is recovering from below a fast falled bair will gimp or stage spike almost every time. Whereas pit can just go under the stage if he is in even a remotely bad situation. also pit's planking destroys fox and it allows us to keep the match at our pace.

all fox has in this MU is kill power and speed to allow him to get in reads if pit messes up. that's how it is, pit has to mess up, otherwise, fox can't really get inside pit to do the damage.

Against DDD, let me go edit in the info from our thread. we just had the discussion recently and i had the chance to play some DDD's recently as well as back in cali so i got experiance in the MU.

ill wait for a response before i talk about falco and oli (i have a lot of falco experiance as well as fox, olimar i am taking all the other pit mains' word on it because i don't play the MU enough)

Outside perspective: If foxes close game is even close to sheiks he should win that. Fox has faster moves and Pits long moves aren't transcendent so I would think fox could be like sheik and just clank all of pits crap with his frame 2 jab.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wrong, our jab literally beats out his entire grounded moveset and does not allow him to get close enough to hit us with the one grounded move he has that can clank it. that move is his utilt and it has to be with him facing backwards hitting with the disjointed part because if he touches it, he get beat. that's just how it works which is why he has a harder time than the other spacies because for some reason fox's ENTIRE grounded moveset get beat by pit's jab. idk why that's just how it is.

edit: a charged usmash can clank with the opening part (the strong hit box) but it leaves him to far to hit with anything and pit can just use dtilt after that to hit him since it will be near the tip of it's range.

also if you are close enough to jab we are close enough to utilt, which is frame 2 as well and has more priority. sheik vs pit is completely different in the fact the whole reason sheik goes even with pit is her grab and juggle game on pit, fox has neither of those on us. (well his grab game is good, but he can't get close enough to use it usually whereas sheik's grab range really helps with that when combined with other stuff. im not too familier with the sheik MU you would have to ask Luckay for info their)

 

[Judo777]

wrong, our jab literally beats out his entire grounded moveset and does not allow him to get close enough to hit us with the one grounded move he has that can clank it. that move is his utilt and it has to be with him facing backwards hitting with the disjointed part because if he touches it, he get beat. that's just how it works which is why he has a harder time than the other spacies because for some reason fox's ENTIRE grounded moveset get beat by pit's jab. idk why that's just how it is.

edit: a charged usmash can clank with the opening part (the strong hit box) but it leaves him to far to hit with anything and pit can just use dtilt after that to hit him since it will be near the tip of it's range.

also if you are close enough to jab we are close enough to utilt, which is frame 2 as well and has more priority

False, foxes jab has a lot more range then ur first hit utilt, also your wrong that ur jab beats his as it doesn't, it clanks. Sheik and Foxes jab should do the same amount of damage (which is the only thing grounded moves care about concerned with priority) and Sheik's jab clanks pit's jab, his ftilt, his fsmash, his dtilt, his utilt (maybe not first hit that might be transcendent). Foxes should do the same.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

False, foxes jab has a lot more range then ur first hit utilt, also your wrong that ur jab beats his as it doesn't, it clanks. Sheik and Foxes jab should do the same amount of damage (which is the only thing grounded moves care about concerned with priority) and Sheik's jab clanks pit's jab, his ftilt, his fsmash, his dtilt, his utilt (maybe not first hit that might be transcendent). Foxes should do the same.

fox's jab is not disjointed, the jab and utilt will clank, and pit moves back wards when he comes out the utilt animation. it spaces itself. our jab does not clank with fox's, it beats it because it outranges it and has more priority. our jab beat's sheik's in priority as well. this is common knowledge that pit's jab has higher priority than both fox's and sheiks and range.

also, pit's tilt's are not clanked by sheik's jab. pit is known for his HIGH priority attacks, how is this not known to you? i mean again it is common knowledge, pit's moveset=high priority. and if you really wanna get technical we still have our sh aerials for spacing as well (fair and dair).

 

[Judo777]

fox's jab is not disjointed, the jab and utilt will clank, and pit moves back wards when he comes out the utilt animation. it spaces itself. our jab does not clank with fox's, it beats it because it outranges it and has more priority. our jab beat's sheik's in priority as well. this is common knowledge that pit's jab has higher priority than both fox's and sheiks and range.

also, pit's tilt's are not clanked by sheik's jab. pit is known for his HIGH priority attacks, how is this not known to you? i mean again it is common knowledge, pit's moveset=high priority. and if you really wanna get technical we still have our sh aerials for spacing as well (fair and dair).

Sir you need to look up ur rules of priority in smash. Just because your move is more disjointed does not mean it will always win. It means it is less likely you will be hit when you move is beat but it has no bearing on clanking. ALL grounded moves (except transcendent) can clank with every other grounded move as long as the moves are within 9% of each other. None of pits grounded moves (except maybe first hit utilt) are transcendent. I think sheik and foxes jab do 3%. therefore unless pit has a grounded move that does more than 12% in a single hit jab will clank it. This does not apply to aerials.

Trust me on this I have played several pits, Krystedez included and Sheik's jab clanks ALL of his grounded moves (except maybe dsmash). Its funny walking ftitl with sheik outspeeds his smashes so its a decent approaching tool (since it clanks).

 

[Esca]

You people are trippin. Seriously.

 

[Krystedez]

Sir you need to look up ur rules of priority in smash. Just because your move is more disjointed does not mean it will always win. It means it is less likely you will be hit when you move is beat but it has no bearing on clanking. ALL grounded moves (except transcendent) can clank with every other grounded move as long as the moves are within 9% of each other. None of pits grounded moves (except maybe first hit utilt) are transcendent. I think sheik and foxes jab do 3%. therefore unless pit has a grounded move that does more than 12% in a single hit jab will clank it. This does not apply to aerials.

Trust me on this I have played several pits, Krystedez included and Sheik's jab clanks ALL of his grounded moves (except maybe dsmash). Its funny walking ftitl with sheik outspeeds his smashes so its a decent approaching tool (since it clanks).

Fsmash probably clanks mainly because it's only the first hit hitting, and that makes it capable of clanking with other moves, it's ********. I've clanked with so many stupid movies it's not even funny.

I would like to say that Pit's moves can outprioritize some character's moves, but that's only some, a very small amount. Fox and Pit jabs clank/negate eachother, I've had jab-clank fights with my room mate so many a time -_- it looks so funny. Fsmash occurs the same way sometimes. As for Sheik, it's just as annoying and the same.

Outside perspective: If foxes close game is even close to sheiks he should win that. Fox has faster moves and Pits long moves aren't transcendent so I would think fox could be like sheik and just clank all of pits crap with his frame 2 jab.

Except Fox can't walk with his frame 2 jab or his frame 3 u-tilt like Shiek can sneak around with her f-tilt. Plus we can DI out of both Fox's moves there quite eaisly if they do hit. Clanking wise, it's just going to happen, so Pit has to use his frame 2 u-tilt and outspeed it, and that's it :/ If the upper part of our disjointed-like hitbox from the fsmash comes out on the same time the fox's jab, f-tilt, or u-tilt comes out, it will most certainly out prioritize it in the sense that it's farther ranged. Otherwise, if they hit the same range/distance, it clanks.

Solution? Jab, clank, power-shield next jab, grab. Or just stop trying to use your moves at the same time as Fox. It's dumb to do CQC with Fox all day anyways, just space yourself and punish.

 

[Flayl]

fox's jab is not disjointed, the jab and utilt will clank, and pit moves back wards when he comes out the utilt animation. it spaces itself. our jab does not clank with fox's, it beats it because it outranges it and has more priority.

Let me ask, have you tested this or are you taking someone's word for it or what?

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Lol @ this fox debate. The guy falls so fast if we get him offstage and he does his stupid helicopter kick move its like 2 arrows then an easy mirrorshield gimp.

 

[Flayl]

Oh my god, do all Pit mains fail terribly at theorycrafting? Can you seriously not know what's wrong with what you just said?

 

[NickRiddle]

I've come to believe that all Pit mains are trolls.

 

[HRNUT (Honey Roasted)]

I concur...*looks at Danny IRL*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You should've beaten me way harder than you did if it was +3

I beat you almost every game. We played friendlies for like 20-30 minutes and you won twice or something. Most of the time it was substantial, too. Not 3-stocks or anything, but yeah.

MM? :D

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Oh my god, do all Pit mains fail terribly at theorycrafting? Can you seriously not know what's wrong with what you just said?

I've come to believe that all Pit mains are trolls.

All in favor of Pit mains not being allowed to discuss their own MUs for the BBR MU chart due to facepalm worthy theorycrafting?

*raises hand*

 

[Flayl]

I beat you almost every game. We played friendlies for like 20-30 minutes and you won twice or something. Most of the time it was substantial, too. Not 3-stocks or anything, but yeah.

MM? :D

Everytime you got more than 1 stock was because I sd'd. And I think you're missing the point, which is if it was really +3 you should have been able to shut me out. ZSS isn't really on the level of Olimar or Diddy in terms of shutting Bowser down. Not to mention I honestly cannot tell the difference between ZSS's OverB and grab until it's too late. I don't know why you would be basing the matchup ratios on OUR games, when better sets have happened multiple times. You can check out Zigsta's games against the Texas ZSSs. It'll become apparent that while Bowser is at a disadvantage he isn't screwed over.

You're not the first person I know that has trouble differentiating between the fault of the player and the character though.

 

[Chuee]

Pit Fox is even go watch Earth vs Yui

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

um, earth hasn't lost to yui for several tournies. and we are not theory crafting, we are talking from MU experiance. experiance is all that matters, theory craft is only useful when you have NO experiance against GOOD players. it's only pit's slight advantage i don't see why you guys are making such a big deal about it. how about you actually play this game and instead of saying this MAY happen, go play a known pit main with fox and see how it goes.

 

[Alphicans]

Ok fox I could live with, but DDD... His weight alone makes it seem even. This looks like the DDD vs peach thing all over again. Sure peach can combo him to **** and avoid him and even camp him, but she can't kill. I don't see pit being difficult to cg a factor at all, and with the skid canceled grab, the cg is actually easy. I've never seen high level DDD vs pit. Are there any videos?

 

[Chuee]

um, earth hasn't lost to yui for several tournies. and we are not theory crafting, we are talking from MU experiance. experiance is all that matters, theory craft is only useful when you have NO experiance against GOOD players. it's only pit's slight advantage i don't see why you guys are making such a big deal about it. how about you actually play this game and instead of saying this MAY happen, go play a known pit main with fox and see how it goes.

Earth only played Yui once and he ended up going Sheik game 3.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Well hyperboles aside, what so hard to believe about what's being said?

Pit's jab when spaced correctly against fox, outranges and beats his. If fox is closer (bad spacing on Pits part), it will clank the first time, in which case you switch to Utilt which will clank while matching foxs jab speed making it so no one will beat each other out until they switch tactics.

Pit gimps Fox easier then a large number of the cast. Doesn't mean its happening all the time, but it's a distinct possibility in a set and relevant.

I can't confidently say that Pit has an advantage over Fox. Honestly I feel better about it being 0, but it is true our jab quashes a lot of foxes options up close and we do give him a lot of problems offstage.

 

[Judo777]

Well hyperboles aside, what so hard to believe about what's being said?

Pit's jab when spaced correctly against fox, outranges and beats his. If fox is closer (bad spacing on Pits part), it will clank the first time, in which case you switch to Utilt which will clank while matching foxs jab speed making it so no one will beat each other out until they switch tactics.

Pit gimps Fox easier then a large number of the cast. Doesn't mean its happening all the time, but it's a distinct possibility in a set and relevant.

I can't confidently say that Pit has an advantage over Fox. Honestly I feel better about it being 0, but it is true our jab quashes a lot of foxes options up close and we do give him a lot of problems offstage.

Like again I have no bearing on the MU nor am I taking sides but I have a large problem with people saying pits jab beats foxes. If spaced correctly if the jab collides with foxes jab..... they still clank. Granted if they are farther away fox is less likely to jab but if the fox throws a jab 3 frames later then it will clank everytime. If fox is in range and they throw jabs at the same time fox will win everytime. If fox throws his jab 2 frames late and is in range fox's jab will win everytime.

Granted I understand the importance of the range of your jab but you guys have to understand that ur quick move with decent range is frame 5 and ur only frame 2 option has no range at all. I don't mind you saying that ur jab outranges most of foxes options (because it does) but don't try and say stuff like ur jab will beat foxes. Cause it sounds to me if fox gets right up in ur face you don't have a lot of options to beat it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Why can't it be just stated that Pit's ulterior in the MU is to play keep away, and that while Pit has some good tools while he is inside, he should ultimately work towards spitting him back out (like throwing him after jab) and resetting? The converse works for Fox too, fox ultimately wins when getting close enough to use his more bread and butter options.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

On stage jab and dtilt are going to be pit's main tools against fox and he will be using them a lot. These keep fox away from pit while constantly allowing pit to reset spacing but do the nature of the moves fox can't really do anything in retalliation to them.

that's the point. thank you for actually reading and understanding what we are saying. jab>grab and both of pit's jab ending's force a retreat (pit's infinite jab hit's behind him as well oddly enough). also i would like to note you guys are only thinking about pit's 3 hit jab combo. the part of the jab that stops every single one of fox's grounded moves is the infinite part of the jab. if that was not made clear earlier i apologize.

@guy who talked about DDD.
it is a possible 0. but from my experiance pit seems to just over all be near untouchable for DDD when he plays a perfect hit and run game (btw this is pretty how all of pit's MUs are played, constant spacing reset via hit and run. also most of pit's moves push people away (jab and dtilt are his main spacing tools and that is what they do). between scrooging and planking and grounded pivot arrows and his basic attacks, pit's goal is always hit in run (there are a few exceptions but these two MUs are not in that category)

@judo
does my statement on jab>fox's grounded moves make more sense now that im talking about the infinite part (more priority than almost any grounded move and is pit's highest priority grounded move)?

 

[da K.I.D.]

this is why pits never place in tourneys.

if pits matchups were really that basic and good for him, he wouldnt struggle so much to get out of pools at big events.

i think the characters main problem. is that he really doesnt have any mixup potential, and you can almost always tell what hes going to do.

sonic for all intents and purposes is a bad character. But he has the ability to do unpredictable things. and if you cant predict a characters moves. you cant react to them fast enough. and if your reaction time is bad, your not going to be able to punish moves, or choose the correct moves based on the situation. which is what leads to a lot of people losing to sonic.

even ddd. character has like 5 moves. 2 of them are attacks, 2 of them beat shield, and the last one is a projectile. the character is retardedly basic or straight forward. but if you have him in the air and are trrying to shield his falling bair because it outprioritises any move you would throw at him, and he turnaround inhales you. people are going to get hit by that until the end of time. because its a solid fundamental mix up. pit doesnt really have anything like that. his entire game is pretty much predicated on. Shoot arrows when theyre far away, and when theyre close, push them out so you can shoot more arrows.

aside from low percent grab combos. the character has nothing that would encourage them to go against the game plan i just lined out. which leads to them being super predictable. and in this game, if youre predictable, you lose.

even falco, who has an arguably, better projectile, has not only an incentive (his CQC game is top notch, and his juggle traps are amazing) but also the means (side b is kinda really hard to punish) to stop shooting lasers for two seconds, and go up and hit the other guy. I just dont see pit having that. and it leads to tired, predictable, losing gameplay.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

um.... koolaid just took 3rd with pit. esca took 7th last hobo, krystedez too third recently with pit/wario, esca was 17th at WHOBO3, chompy recently placed 7th at a tourney that i don't remember the name of, and fuddo just took 5th up in canada. all but the one national are pit's placing in top 10, and the national had 145 entrants. how can you say pit is not placing? it's not fair too assume we are doing poorly based on the years before when we are actually making an upset here in 2011. hell i plan on taking top 15 at the next hobo do my own recent improvements (im not a top 10 placer yet, but im not too far away from getting to that point either). also luckay and ptzr have been doing fine and kuro has been making a lot of progress in his region. btw i just listed every tourney going pit main.

edit: just watch our tourney results and you will see we are actually getting good scores, it's just no one ever pays attention to how pit's place since there are not that many of us around.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Everytime you got more than 1 stock was because I sd'd. And I think you're missing the point, which is if it was really +3 you should have been able to shut me out. ZSS isn't really on the level of Olimar or Diddy in terms of shutting Bowser down. Not to mention I honestly cannot tell the difference between ZSS's OverB and grab until it's too late. I don't know why you would be basing the matchup ratios on OUR games, when better sets have happened multiple times. You can check out Zigsta's games against the Texas ZSSs. It'll become apparent that while Bowser is at a disadvantage he isn't screwed over.

You're not the first person I know that has trouble differentiating between the fault of the player and the character though.

I didn't base the ratio off of our games; you did. Go back and re-read the posts.

More importantly, I'm basing my number off of how I feel the match-up should go, not videos or our matches or anything else.

I mean here's how it works: Bowser has a few things going for him, like the fact that up+b makes it so ZSS can't reliably attack Bowser's shield up close. ZSS is tall, so klaw can be annoying if you're not careful. Bowser can kill ZSS really early sometimes. But that's it. What else does Bowser even have in this match-up? All he has is reads.

 

[Conviction]

Lol every other character main and their mother is arguing for fox, but fox mains aren't.

Question: so if pit is trying to use the infinite part of the jab to block out fox what stops fox from using aerial approaches? Or if he sees the pit using the jab, just to laser him for it?

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

why would pit start jabbing unneccesarily when we know you can lazer us for it? i mean it's not like we are just gonna stand there and wait to for you to run into jab infinite you when you are camping (although sometimes if we leave it out when people DI it they accidently run back into it, but that is a player flaw done on read) we wait and see what approach you will take. don't forget just like most other characters we don't have to start the infinite jab out of our second jab hit. and we also have reflectors to deal with lazers.
and hell mirror shield as you all know can even block fox's usmash and stuff but holding it out when you are that close is obviously gonna get us grabbed, so we may be sh retreating with mirror shield or we will use AR to stuff your attack and when used properly the move is hard to punish but most people don't see this move used properly so i understand if you think that is poor but it really is great against fast fallers like the spacies.

and to answer the aerial approach, by the time you jump we can end our jab and shield if we are somewhere without platforms. however none of fox's sh aerials have the range to get past the jab infinite, they have to be done out of a full hop to get over it. usually this is why we take fox some where like battlefield or lylat or halberd (although halberd is more about sharking tbh) because we can camp under the platforms to limit your aerial game against us.

 

[Conviction]

Hmmm I really surprised to hear none of our aerials can get through it, ill test if bair can when I get home.



I still stand firm about just shine jump canceling your arrows in a camp battle

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

iblis, im not saying that shine jump cancelling isn't a good option, but in actual gameplay people tend to make mistakes.
also i too stand firm in sh retreating mirror shield and sh retreating AR for lazers and then just holding them out if you are far away enough to not be able to punish us for holding it

@ the bair thing, it may be one of those really close calls, but RARing fox's bair could be a possibility with perfect spacing, but in all the matches i've played against fox i haven't seen it happen. but then again tbh i haven't really seen it done to me either that i can recall and when it was done it was definately not with perfect spacing. but ya test it and let me know the results on that for sure.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah I just wish he had another pit player in the atl south. I found the mu fun.

Until I do my testing I want to know,

How does the zzs vs. Wolf mu play out? It sounds fun (maybe because at one point in time i secondaried both characters.

 

[Zigsta]

I didn't base the ratio off of our games; you did. Go back and re-read the posts.

More importantly, I'm basing my number off of how I feel the match-up should go, not videos or our matches or anything else.

I mean here's how it works: Bowser has a few things going for him, like the fact that up+b makes it so ZSS can't reliably attack Bowser's shield up close. ZSS is tall, so klaw can be annoying if you're not careful. Bowser can kill ZSS really early sometimes. But that's it. What else does Bowser even have in this match-up? All he has is reads.

Bowser has jab.

 

[Conviction]

Bowser has magical fire.

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser has magical fire.

Everything about Bowser is magical.

 

[Chuee]

Magic doesn't exist.

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser has magical fire.

Everything about Bowser is magical.

 

[Deleted member]

Everything about Bowser is magical.

So true... <3