Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Maharba the Mystic]

i love how like everyone in this thread is on their phone but me lol

 

[Conviction]

Magic does exist, bowser was made by kyubey.

 

[Kewkky]

Bowser is fun to use, but I hate getting ***** by everyone in nearly every higher tier matchup.

i love how like everyone in this thread is on their phone but me lol

What are you talking about? Not everyone is on their phone, believe me.

 

[phi1ny3]

Bowser = Brawl's Puff the Magic Dragon :D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

alright guys, i took the time to put the correct number interpretation into perspective and this is what i came up with. know that i include CP stages as part of a MU as they are very important to all MUs. i also researched MUs that i didn't have as much experiance in as others so that will account for my change of heart on olimar and some others you notice.

if you have any questions again, now that it takes proper consideration into the number system, go ahead and ask. all i ask is that it be kept civil. however again im at work so it will take a while to for me to respond


-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2: (very borderline)
3:

Only reason I have trouble with this...his MU is on the level of some A tiers if not better...that isn't right. I've seen this as a trend with Pit where a lot of his MUs are kinda far on the ooptomistic side.

He probably does better without a LGL, but with it. I don't see why ICs, Pika, Snake are even.

Falco i've heard different thinks simular to Diddy, but for ICs, Pika, and Snake, why is he even?

Even comparing...this is on par if not better than Lucario's...

 

[Sinister Slush]

What I like most about the list of Pits Matchups Mystic made, is that Sheilda isn't on it.

 

[NickRiddle]

Yeah I just wish he had another pit player in the atl south. I found the mu fun.

Until I do my testing I want to know,

How does the zzs vs. Wolf mu play out? It sounds fun (maybe because at one point in time i secondaried both characters.

ZSS combos Wolf if she hits him, but Wolf's mobility/bair make it hard.
Shine is gay.
ZSS can gimp Wolf, but Wolf kills ZSS fairly early.
Wolf's D-throw is gay.
ZSS's shine is gay.

0

 

[phi1ny3]

I can see Snake being even, Pit's got some really good landing traps for that MU and the camping goes quite swimming for Pit, there's also been a lot of good matches documented of Snake v. Pit.

I'm not so sure about Pika and ICs though.

Also, Sheik v. ZSS is one of my favorites, femme fatale action w/ each of them ****** each other in recovery and juggles.

 

[Lenus Altair]

Only reason I have trouble with this...his MU is on the level of some A tiers if not better...that isn't right. I've seen this as a trend with Pit where a lot of his MUs are kinda far on the ooptomistic side.

He probably does better without a LGL, but with it. I don't see why ICs, Pika, Snake are even.

Falco i've heard different thinks simular to Diddy, but for ICs, Pika, and Snake, why is he even?

Even comparing...this is on par if not better than Lucario's...

Well maybe he is a better character then most in the States seem to think. That aside, I'll throw out some arguments for you to consider.

ICs: ICs will be approaching here. Their dysnic blizzard doesnt work on Pit and dysnc iceblocks arn't amazing either (though can be disruptive if pit planks for any amount of time poorly.) Overall Pit counterpicks ICs harder, and is decent at separating the pair with some good multihits (infinite jab being pretty nice here.) In any case, Pit running away most of the matchup and harassing with arrows is pretty effective against ICs given their mobilities and their shields not always raising in sync (Ive had a number of times where and arrow hits the shield of one in front only to linger long enough to hit the one behind whose shield rose a couple frames later.) Also If pit gets either one of them in the air, he has a distinct advantage. If he gets either one offstage, they are easier for him to gimp then most. I feel ICs really are dependent on their CG for this matchup and pit is decent at avoiding it, but when he doesnt it loses a stock like the rest. Even with a LGL Pit can still plank for a notable portion of the match when needed.

Pika: Pika is one character I don't really plank... It's doable but much riskier so I don't think having a LGL or not effects this one as much. Pit still has the advantage camping here. Evne with Pika being small to help avoiding arrows, it doesn't take much effort for a Pit player to adjust (He is one character that I curve my arrows along the ground for.) Angel Ring is a solid tool against pika as well, disrupting jolt related approaches and being an attack in iself. It also is a great punish for a poorly executed thunder (though a good player will let that happen minimally.) While we don't out disjoint Pika as hard as marth, its still a factor. I dunno honestly. I need to fight better pikas. I haven't felt it was anything uneven about it, since pika has stronger setups (especially to kills) and is one of the few characters we have little chance gimping.

Snake: He hits us hard, but we camp him hard too even without LGL. We can CG him, punish his mortar sliding with AR and Arrows, and punish him in the air like most characters, but also harder then most characters. I mean the thing that really keeps this match even is my eyes is that snake is heavy as hell. Pit I feels racks damage a bit better just in keeping away and aerial abuse. Of course we all know snake hits stupid hard with just basic tilts so it certianly helps, and he wins in CQC but Pit isnt helpless there. Bad spacing on Snakes part gives us an out with Utilt, and one decent read is all we need to get out. Assuming the Pit player fails, Snake isn't the best at keeping it CQ. He usually knocks Pit far away, exactly where he wants to be (minus snakes dthrow mixups) Again even with LGL we can plank for a portion of the match. Also we have fun with snakes grenades. Between shooting them out of the air and glide toss mixups he better be smart about when to cook them and when not to.

Those are some of my thoughts/experiences.

 

[Tagxy]

tbh it feels like pika is +1 vs pit. The biggest reason is that pika can get around camping better than just about every other character. While pika might get hit with a few arrows, his small size and ability to run under non-curved arrows significantly reduces the amount he'll be hit with compared to most other characters. In addition QA gets him across the screen fast enough to punish arrows with a QAC nair. Planking as mentioned is generally neutral, pikas has some strong tools to deal with planking. However pika cant really plank or camp pit either, forcing the MU into CQC.

Here pits aerials also have a hard time hitting pika, since they dont swing downwards like marths do, and we might outrange pit on the ground with dtilt, but in head to head air combat pit probably wins. Overall both characters are probably about even in terms of landing hits, but pika gains an advantage since hes better at comboing and maintaining momentum allowing him to rack up damage better, and in the end pika kills pit a lot easier. Just about anyone that cant kill pika consistently off the top and isnt a heavy weight usually dies a lot earlier to pika, and it plays a fairly strong roll in most MUs.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

lenus summed ICs and snake nicely (however you forgot to mention about the effect WOI has grenades but that's over looked by most anyways). for ICs all i would add is that pit can tiime out ICs all day on a stage with platforms which really helps there is always a stage with platforms to choose from in the starter and CP list no matter what.

about pika, im going over to leaf's house tonight and playing with him and ill come up with a good summary for you guys about why pit vs pika is even. however if you aren't patient enough for that please pm esca as he ***** pika's with pit. it's one of his specialty MUs. but it is definately a zero from what esca tells me as well as luckay who mains both pit and pika (also a good referance to ask). also tagxy, idk if it's just me but i always get my reflector out when pika is gonna thunder me (watch me vs. kpr1m3 for details) when he is pressuring me with it. im not gonna say it doesn't kill pit early but don't forget that reflecting it is a possibility for pit. however im personally not to experianced in the MU so like i said im rain checking that response.

 

[Steam]

lol at the matchups he gave for pit... that's better than like olimar and pikachu have...

 

[Judo777]

Mystic I'm not disagreeing with any of your conceptual strategies. But even pits rapid jabs aren't transcendent and can be clanked by foxes jab. Priority is almost non-existent in grounded moves. I'm telling you straight up ALL of pits grounded moves (except maybe Dsmash) can be clanked by sheiks jab. And I am fairly certain sheiks and foxes jabs do the same damage so it would also apply to fox. I can tell you right not that foxes ab can guaranteed clank all of pits grounded moves except possible dsmash, ftilt, and utilt (cause it might be transcendent but i honestly don;t think it is).

I have a thread in the tactical discussion on exactly how priority in smash works. You should look at it. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=300629

 

[Lenus Altair]

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2: (very borderline)
3:

-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:



-2:
-1:
0:
1:
2:
3:
4:

lol at the matchups he gave for pit... that's better than like olimar and pikachu have...

You know looking at it I'd have to disagree. What Maharba lists shows is that Pit has a lot more neutral match ups then most characters, but rarely a advantage against any high level character, all the while at a notable disadvantage with the most relevant character in the game.

Both Olimar and Pikachu lose to less prevalent characters and have favorable match ups with more high tier characters all the while doing better against MK.

Honestly I think it just shows that Pit is a character that isn't a "swingy" as most. Most would agree he doesnt have something thats paticularly abusive but has solid (or at least average if you prefer) options all around. This usualy give him some edge in a matchup if his other options are dashed. He still has to work harder then Olimar and Pikachu as a whole.

Its not so much which side of a characters matchup spread has more characters, but which characters fall to either side.

I may not support Maharba list 100% but its close enough, and doesn't make Pit look stupid good. Better balanced perhaps, probablly a cut above mediocore.

P.S. Yes, I am saying we have a MK driven/focused Meta.

 

[Tagxy]

When I say pika kills pit easier its more to do with pikas strong survivability off the side and pikas fairly good killing options, thunder itself isnt very reliable on its own. Regarding thunder and reflectors the problem with using b-moves to try and reflect thunder is that b-moves come out the slowest when trying to momentum cancel, so youre allowing pika a bigger window to thunder you. In addition most pikachus should be familiar with whether their opponent has enough time to use a b-move vs just airdodges and a-moves.

 

[Lenus Altair]

When I say pika kills pit easier its more to do with pikas strong survivability off the side and pikas fairly good killing options, thunder itself isnt very reliable on its own. Regarding thunder and reflectors the problem with using b-moves to try and reflect thunder is that b-moves come out the slowest when trying to momentum cancel, so youre allowing pika a bigger window to thunder you. In addition most pikachus should be familiar with whether their opponent has enough time to use a b-move vs just airdodges and a-moves.

I agree particularly for Pit. He'll only get to reflect a thunder if pikachu makes a bad read.

 

[Judo777]

Alrighty just to correct myself i was a bit mistaken. Fox and Sheiks jabs don't do the same damage as Foxes does 2% whiles Sheiks does 3%. The only move this makes a difference on is clanking pits dtilt as fox is not able to clank it and sheik is.

So Sheik is able to clank ALL of pits grounded moves with the exception of dsmash (13%) and ftilt (13%) but is able to clank dtilt (12%). Utilt not sure when i buffered them out of pause the jab always won.

Fox is able to clank ALL of pits grounded moves with the exception of dsmash (13%), ftilt (13%) and dtilt (13%). Utilt not sure when i buffered them out of pause the jab always won.

Note the moves fox and sheik can clank other than stated above include all hits of jab (rapid jabs included), fsmash (first hit obv) usmash (first hit obv), Arrows (uncharged and all charges that deal less than the required amount), and Angel Ring.

Upon further testing first hit utilt is transcendent, the reason jab was always winning is because utilts hit box is so freaking small that i didn't realize that my body had to literally be inside pits in order to get hit.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

wow! thank you for that bit of info there judo! i guess people are just messing up there spacing when they play me (hell that even applies to M3g@f0x) so tbh i guess it only outrprioritzes when you the opponent messes up. thank's for that as tbh it's not happened to me to date which is why i made those claims about jab infinite (it must have been hitting before the actual box came out).

also lenus is right. look at my list more closely and you will see that pit only goes even with most characters of higher class, not advantage by +2 (the highest class on that list is DK and that's reasonable). at least lucario has +2 against like pika and stuff. all my list says is that pit is:
a)obviously under rated due to the fact that it takes so much evidence to convince most of you that he is a good character let alone have advantageous MUs.
b)goes EVEN as opposed to an advantage on almost every high tier (unlike LUC, DDD, PIKA, ETC who have advantages and disadvantages throughout their own tier).

 

[Steam]

It takes so much "evidence" because pit never places at the level you'd expect from the character most pit mains say he is... He places like the mid/low Ctier character he is.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Right, but Marth doesn't place like the A tier character he is because he's so hard to play

 

[Steam]

I also believe marth should be dropped to like 9th...

 

[Chuee]

It takes so much "evidence" because pit never places at the level you'd expect from the character most pit mains say he is... He places like the mid/low Ctier character he is.

You don't base everything off of results.

 

[Browny]

Inbe4 pointless argument which goes in circles

 

[Kewkky]

You don't base everything off of results.

They should. How else are we gonna prove just how good a character is? 3+ years into the game and Pit still isn't amazing, whereas other characters have proven they're good/bad over and over again. Realize that analyzing how good a character is, or how good their moveset is, without hard data to serve as the backbone of the analysis, whatever is said can be interpreted in different ways. But results can't, a 3rd place in a 150+ man tourney is a 3rd place and it can't be viewed any other way, while we can see Pit's moveset and "potential" and say he's good or he's bad, depending on how we "feel" about the character. IMO, results should matter more than anything, as with pretty much every well-executed experiment/study out there.

 

[Steam]

You don't base everything off of results.

what else? base things off of theorycraft? so we're creating a tier list based on how good the supporters of each character are at debating? :/

 

[fUddO]

Tournament results are skewed by character representation. Otherwise MK would be something like "SSS" tier.

 

[Krystedez]

Pit isn't played enough to be considered a good character to use statistics and placings to analyze his overall match up spread, and argueably his tier-placement. Now that people are using Pit and saying "hey, he's not that half bad of a character!" or "he deserves better recognition/better matchup evaluations!", instead of people welcoming his users' ambitions and discussion, he gets !@#$ING **** ON. "Always the Pit mains", "Pits are all trolls", "Pits don't know how to discuss stuff"; Looking at it this way, you can see that people are just discriminatory against a character that isn't as cool as their favorite character in their minds, and people give Pit a bad rep for that.

In the end though, what matters is that Pits (and those actually involved in the discussion as well like Judo) are instead using what they can to evaluate matchups, which is prior experience against certain match ups along with objective knowledge of the game. This is the bread and butter of our developing metagame, not statistics (which does come in as the advanced part for tier-placement, which is all arbitrary, personal opinion unified in the first place, because it's voted for)

 

[Shaya]

Now that people are using Pit and saying "hey, he's not that half bad of a character!" or "he deserves better recognition/better matchup evaluations!", instead of people welcoming his users' ambitions and discussion, he gets !@#$ING **** ON. "Always the Pit mains", "Pits are all trolls", "Pits don't know how to discuss stuff"; Looking at it this way, you can see that people are just discriminatory against a character that isn't as cool as their favorite character in their minds, and people give Pit a bad rep for that.

You say this, but this has been the case for nearly the entirety of Brawl's life time.

 

[Steam]

Tournament results are skewed by character representation. Otherwise MK would be something like "SSS" tier.

there is a thread that records both

 

[John12346]

I feel like a broken record at this point...

MK has the highest "Money won/Number of times used" ratio out of the entire cast. (Strictly speaking, ICs have the highest ratio, but they got a huge outlier amount of ~$600 from Pound 5 because Ally used them in ONE match. Removing that statistic puts MK at the top.)

There's more to MK's successes than just representation.

 

[Browny]

Sonic boards '08 matchup discussions were more intelligent that '11 Pit matchup discussions

"not statistics (which does come in as the advanced part for tier-placement, which is all arbitrary"

GODDAM FREAKIN LOL

 

[Krystedez]

you bolded the wrong parts dude.

"not statistics (which does come in as the advanced part for tier-placement, <-which is all arbitrary, personal opinion unified in the first place, because it's voted for)"

I like how you skipped the rest of my sentence and just focus on what you incorrectly interpreted. I would otherwise reword it, but just pointing this out should do for you.

Anyways, the point is, I believe the MU chart is much more intelligent to discuss then the tier-placement, which is why when people say OMG PIT HAVING BETTER (or in a way that was previously said, more evenish MUs across the board but still having significant losses to other relevant characters) MU SPREAD THAN HIGH TIERS LOLOLOLOL doesn't say anything.

You say this, but this has been the case for nearly the entirety of Brawl's life time.

Which is why I'm bringing it up... It's basically as old as Brawl itself, and doesn't say much for the maturity of discussion that happens any more when it involves character metagame. In other words, quit !@#$ing trolling your non-favorite characters. It's annoying and doesn't provide anything at all to the table.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I can see Snake being even, Pit's got some really good landing traps for that MU and the camping goes quite swimming for Pit, there's also been a lot of good matches documented of Snake v. Pit.

I'm not so sure about Pika and ICs though.

Also, Sheik v. ZSS is one of my favorites, femme fatale action w/ each of them ****** each other in recovery and juggles.

I can't say that Pit goes even, tbh.

Well maybe he is a better character then most in the States seem to think. That aside, I'll throw out some arguments for you to consider.

ICs: ICs will be approaching here. Their dysnic blizzard doesnt work on Pit and dysnc iceblocks arn't amazing either (though can be disruptive if pit planks for any amount of time poorly.) Overall Pit counterpicks ICs harder, and is decent at separating the pair with some good multihits (infinite jab being pretty nice here.) In any case, Pit running away most of the matchup and harassing with arrows is pretty effective against ICs given their mobilities and their shields not always raising in sync (Ive had a number of times where and arrow hits the shield of one in front only to linger long enough to hit the one behind whose shield rose a couple frames later.) Also If pit gets either one of them in the air, he has a distinct advantage. If he gets either one offstage, they are easier for him to gimp then most. I feel ICs really are dependent on their CG for this matchup and pit is decent at avoiding it, but when he doesnt it loses a stock like the rest. Even with a LGL Pit can still plank for a notable portion of the match when needed.

Pika: Pika is one character I don't really plank... It's doable but much riskier so I don't think having a LGL or not effects this one as much. Pit still has the advantage camping here. Evne with Pika being small to help avoiding arrows, it doesn't take much effort for a Pit player to adjust (He is one character that I curve my arrows along the ground for.) Angel Ring is a solid tool against pika as well, disrupting jolt related approaches and being an attack in iself. It also is a great punish for a poorly executed thunder (though a good player will let that happen minimally.) While we don't out disjoint Pika as hard as marth, its still a factor. I dunno honestly. I need to fight better pikas. I haven't felt it was anything uneven about it, since pika has stronger setups (especially to kills) and is one of the few characters we have little chance gimping.

Snake: He hits us hard, but we camp him hard too even without LGL. We can CG him, punish his mortar sliding with AR and Arrows, and punish him in the air like most characters, but also harder then most characters. I mean the thing that really keeps this match even is my eyes is that snake is heavy as hell. Pit I feels racks damage a bit better just in keeping away and aerial abuse. Of course we all know snake hits stupid hard with just basic tilts so it certianly helps, and he wins in CQC but Pit isnt helpless there. Bad spacing on Snakes part gives us an out with Utilt, and one decent read is all we need to get out. Assuming the Pit player fails, Snake isn't the best at keeping it CQ. He usually knocks Pit far away, exactly where he wants to be (minus snakes dthrow mixups) Again even with LGL we can plank for a portion of the match. Also we have fun with snakes grenades. Between shooting them out of the air and glide toss mixups he better be smart about when to cook them and when not to.

Those are some of my thoughts/experiences.

Your underestimating ICs.

Desynced Ice blocks are faster than arrows and can outright clank with Pit's Arrows. Even with planking desynced Ice blocks will stop any arrows going straight. Pit planking doesn't work too well with a LGL because he needs to get off the ledge or he will be hit. infinite jab won't keep them away that well, nor does Pit have the raw range or air mobility to play keep away with his aerials.

Pika has a 0-48% CG on Pit, has better mobility, a slight lead in terms of killing. Camping isn't in Pit's favor per say, I'd say they can turn into being as effective as Pika's jolts. Pika can juggle Pit a bit, Pit cannot do the same back or anywhere as effectively. Pit is not Marth, he doesn't wall him out by any means.

Snake is literally, kill power and spacing tools, that is really all he needs for an advantage. Bair is all Pit has that is near Snake is terms of killing, If Snake sees you with your back turned in the air, he can guess pretty well what you are trying to do with bair. In your summary your even admitting that Snake having poor spacing, this is high levels of play, Snake is going to be more spot on with his spacing.

lenus summed ICs and snake nicely (however you forgot to mention about the effect WOI has grenades but that's over looked by most anyways). for ICs all i would add is that pit can tiime out ICs all day on a stage with platforms which really helps there is always a stage with platforms to choose from in the starter and CP list no matter what.

about pika, im going over to leaf's house tonight and playing with him and ill come up with a good summary for you guys about why pit vs pika is even. however if you aren't patient enough for that please pm esca as he ***** pika's with pit. it's one of his specialty MUs. but it is definately a zero from what esca tells me as well as luckay who mains both pit and pika (also a good referance to ask). also tagxy, idk if it's just me but i always get my reflector out when pika is gonna thunder me (watch me vs. kpr1m3 for details) when he is pressuring me with it. im not gonna say it doesn't kill pit early but don't forget that reflecting it is a possibility for pit. however im personally not to experianced in the MU so like i said im rain checking that response.

Platform camping is a tactic, Pit doesn't do it as effectively, heck Lucario tries to abuse the hell out of that against them and it's still a 0, maybe +1 Luc I doubt it now that I have played the MU more.

Actually ESAM has played R@vyn and from what I've seen him say is pretty adamant it's a +1 for Pika.

lol at the matchups he gave for pit... that's better than like olimar and pikachu have...

I'll get back to this at the end.

You know looking at it I'd have to disagree. What Maharba lists shows is that Pit has a lot more neutral match ups then most characters, but rarely a advantage against any high level character, all the while at a notable disadvantage with the most relevant character in the game.

Both Olimar and Pikachu lose to less prevalent characters and have favorable match ups with more high tier characters all the while doing better against MK.

Honestly I think it just shows that Pit is a character that isn't a "swingy" as most. Most would agree he doesnt have something thats paticularly abusive but has solid (or at least average if you prefer) options all around. This usualy give him some edge in a matchup if his other options are dashed. He still has to work harder then Olimar and Pikachu as a whole.

Its not so much which side of a characters matchup spread has more characters, but which characters fall to either side.

I may not support Maharba list 100% but its close enough, and doesn't make Pit look stupid good. Better balanced perhaps, probablly a cut above mediocore.

P.S. Yes, I am saying we have a MK driven/focused Meta.

You see, we do live in an MK infested world, lets focus on that point. Pit has a -2 against MK yes?

Here are the characters that get +2'd by MK, let's ignore that some +1 might be +2s on MK's list as well but let's go with it.

2:

Let's remember this.

Pit's placements suggest he is around Peach, DK on the tier list if I recall. Let's use Maharba's MU chart for Pit for looking at his +/- to get a number adding them all up.

I got +25 for that, which is equal to when I did it for the BBR's MU chart for making a Street Fighter like Tier list.

Street Fighter Style:

SS Tier
Metaknight: 71

S Tier
Ice Climbers: 47
Marth: 47
Snake: 45
Falco: 45

A Tier
Wario: 36
Olimar:36
Pikachu:36
Diddy Kong: 34
King Dedede: 34

B Tier
Mr. Game&Watch: 29
Lucario: 26
Zero Suit Samus: 25
Toon Link: 25
Pit: 25
Peach: 23

C Tier
Kirby: 12
Fox: 9
Wolf: 9
Zelda/Shiek: 6
R.O.B.: 5
Shiek:0

D Tier
Donkey Kong: -5
Sonic: -12
Yoshi: -13
Ike:-16
luigi: -18
Pokemon Trainer: -19

E Tier
Mario: -30
Ness: -31
Samus: -38
Lucas: -41

F Tier
Bowser: -59
Captain Falcon: -59
Jigglypuff: -60
Zelda: -60
Link: -61


Ganon Tier
Ganondorf: -99

Props to Shippo for organizing it.

Now his MU in terms of raw advantages based on that isn't the same as let's say Olimar or Pika, heck Pit is around Lucario, ZSS, TL, and Peach based on this.

Now even and advantage wise, let's look at A tier and B tier for a second.

-2:
-1:
0:
1:

Now a MU chart like this suggests that it would be up to the Pit mains themselves, since all his MU's are even with almost all of high and top tier, and only losing to 4, 2 as a -1 and 2 as a -2. That tells me Pit should be placing a lot better since having a ton of even MU's would result in him placing better, I mean in vanilla SF4, Ryu had no bad MU's but he was only even with all of top tier and even going down he was pretty much just even with anyone in the higher tiers yet he places well.

Even in this game if it's just MK, Pit should be placing better, heck this means he should be placing better than Lucario, because he doesn't lose to Snake nor DDD, Wario is his other bad MU which is an uncommon character in ways, Marth is only a -1 and so is G&W which tells me that they are a lot more doable.

Something doesn't seem right to me here.

Pit isn't played enough to be considered a good character to use statistics and placings to analyze his overall match up spread, and argueably his tier-placement. Now that people are using Pit and saying "hey, he's not that half bad of a character!" or "he deserves better recognition/better matchup evaluations!", instead of people welcoming his users' ambitions and discussion, he gets !@#$ING **** ON. "Always the Pit mains", "Pits are all trolls", "Pits don't know how to discuss stuff"; Looking at it this way, you can see that people are just discriminatory against a character that isn't as cool as their favorite character in their minds, and people give Pit a bad rep for that.

In the end though, what matters is that Pits (and those actually involved in the discussion as well like Judo) are instead using what they can to evaluate matchups, which is prior experience against certain match ups along with objective knowledge of the game. This is the bread and butter of our developing metagame, not statistics (which does come in as the advanced part for tier-placement, which is all arbitrary, personal opinion unified in the first place, because it's voted for)

I did this about a week ago with the Pit boards.

When I did sit down and talk about it, no one except Esca and Maharba knew anything about my character, they live in Texas wonder why. "I heard the same Aura increases Lucario's range, only a problem when he gets aura, he spams Fsmash it's his only threat and kill move" like it was near mind boggling how wrong that all was.

Not to mention the reasoning given to my panel for the MU chart when I helped with that was essentially. "Pit wins against Lucario because I play my roomate's secondary who sounded like he was new to the game and was 2 stocking him." I couldn't even say anything about that, heck my roommate ironically mained Pit and I 2-3 stocked him almost all the time, I never would use that as justification because he's not near my skill level.

I do think Lucario wins +1, and it seems most of the better Lucario's seem to lean that way as well, however I'm giving Pit the benefit of the doubt for my chart since I haven't played it often and stuck with a 0.

Also like Browny said, statistics are not arbitrary they are facts, Pit does not place anywhere near where some say he is around Lucario/ZSS etc. I heard the, "His mains are just no good enough" I've heard this many times before and I wonder how long do we need to wait for this? Pit can do well sometimes and place sure, but it's not as often nor as easy as it is for many others who are above him.

Granted our communities tier list is nothing like Street Fighter's which is pure MU based, and I somewhat agree that pure MU's isn't the best idea, however it can suggest when something is right or wrong.

Sonic used to be the 5th worst in the game, then he placed somewhere around +12 spots above his tier position and it sent in huge red flags about his placement. Pit was placing -8 lower than on tier list V4.0 when people were voting him for the +4-5 he got which also sent up huge red flags.

I in no means want to call you a troll or hate you, takes a lot to get me to dislike someone, nor do I hate Pit as a character, he's fun to place and is one of my better characters on random. I do hate the constant misplacement and over-hype he gets, in combination with the misinformation I read when I do try to discuss MU's with Pit involved.

wow! thank you for that bit of info there judo! i guess people are just messing up there spacing when they play me (hell that even applies to M3g@f0x) so tbh i guess it only outrprioritzes when you the opponent messes up. thank's for that as tbh it's not happened to me to date which is why i made those claims about jab infinite (it must have been hitting before the actual box came out).

also lenus is right. look at my list more closely and you will see that pit only goes even with most characters of higher class, not advantage by +2 (the highest class on that list is DK and that's reasonable). at least lucario has +2 against like pika and stuff. all my list says is that pit is:
a)obviously under rated due to the fact that it takes so much evidence to convince most of you that he is a good character let alone have advantageous MUs.
b)goes EVEN as opposed to an advantage on almost every high tier (unlike LUC, DDD, PIKA, ETC who have advantages and disadvantages throughout their own tier).

The one thing I'm not sure about is him going even with almost all of high and top tier, if this is the case he should be a doing a lot better than he is, at least if this is a the case. Now don't get me wrong, he most likely does have some advantages and even, somewhat of a C tier level around Peach.

Most of B and some A don't even have the luxury Pit does with that kind of spread, that why some people have trouble looking at it right.

 

[Krystedez]

First off, again, I apologize if this wasn't made clear (because when Browny quoted me, he only quoted the part he wanted to read, not the entire thing.)... I NEVER said statistics are arbitrary. I said the tier-list, and the voting procedure sorta is. It's much more opinion based, and while stats play a part in the justification, it generally doesn't fit well with the same goal we had in mind for the MU CHART. That's what I was trying to get at.

You know looking at it I'd have to disagree. What Maharba lists shows is that Pit has a lot more neutral match ups then most characters, but rarely a advantage against any high level character, all the while at a notable disadvantage with the most relevant character in the game.

This is the most relevant post to my belief on the MUs that Pit deserves I think, which is a mix between the current spread and Maharba's. Only a couple of them I really wish would have stayed our rating (SNAKE), and others I want to see re-evaluated as time passes by and players play each other from those respective sides (Lucario v Pit)

Also, RR, I put my vote forth based on experience in the MU, I will say that there are no good lucarios in the MW that I know personally or have played with my pit, and using a player that I play with on a high-level as an experience is not a bad one to use as a justification of my knowledge of the character. It's just not the best, which I will agree. It's better than a level 9 right? But I WILL agree that it's much better to receive justification of a MU when the credit is to a experienced user of said character. If it was you that I played with all the time or you were my room mate, it'd be way different, and then what-if Junebug, and then what-if Trela... etc! So I agree with that, and I'm just going to say that the way we went about doing the match-up justification was fine considering no one plays this MU enough to argue it thoroughly.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Fonz is still around yes?

 

[Krystedez]

I played him in doubles with Pit, never in bracket.

Scratch that I used Wario against him with my partner, lol... Kel and Fonz I think it was.

Now that you mention it, if he is still active I'll try to MM or seriously him for a while at the next tournament I see him in.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He is usually busy from what I heard.

He gets up there from time to time though when he does play.

 

[Krystedez]

you know, wifi may not be very helpful in learning the matchup but it might be helpful in gauging general knowledge at a glance... I wonder if any of the top Luc mains will sit down and try to wif-...

Ahh... failure... that'd be so failure, what am I talking about... sigh. I wanna go back in time and use Pit against Trela at MLG T_T

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm no top Luc, nor am I anywhere close since I stick to Wi/IL mostly so I can't help too much sad to say.

 

[Juushichi]

Fonz is still around. He was at AZ's last DU iirc which was a couple of weeks ago. Ohio's kind of been weird so far since there haven't been a ton of tournaments and when there have they've been in Columbus. (like three straight weeks of C-Bus tournaments, WTF?)

But, iirc, I think Fonz is one of the few Ohio players (save for like KB, Y.b.M., Tako and them) that travel OoS with any real consistency. Oh, I guess I forgot to add Shugo too.

When he's not doing MvC and stuff with Nope and the rest of Springfield.

On topic though.

How does Pit actually kill Snake in that MU? And around what %? I'm curious.