Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Esca]

Masashi is better than Earth.

 

[Psychoace]

Japan doesn't matter :trollface:

Snake will drop to 3rd, but I doubt he'll go below that, considering the new findings on Falco.

 

[Poltergust]

"New findings"? >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

rofl @ SDI behind falcos jab and SDI the chain grab spike being a 'new discovery' or even hurting his overall viability at all. LOL at all of that ignorance. next thing you know, people are going to freak out when they learn that they can tech the spike after the CG.

diddy is riding a hype wave right now. so hes not as good as people are making him out to be. it seems like the general concept is that people are over rating diddy and under rating snake. but even with all that, its kinda possible that diddy might be a better character. in my mind, at this point theyre tied for 2 and 3.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pit is so damned one-dimensional and mid tier. I don't know why we're even having this discussion. Masashi places well with Pit in Japan, which is cool. Good for him. Reflex used to place pretty well here with Pokemon Trainer, too. San wins tournaments with Ike. See also: Sonic.

 

[Steam]

I don't understand Marharbabaharba's attitude of "pit mains vs. the world"

no really, we're not all out to get you.

 

[Krystedez]

Pit is so damned one-dimensional and mid tier. I don't know why we're even having this discussion. Masashi places well with Pit in Japan, which is cool. Good for him. Reflex used to place pretty well here with Pokemon Trainer, too. San wins tournaments with Ike. See also: Sonic.

Sonic's got a legion of steak-eating maniacs; Sonic is a dumb character that's .5 dimensional and people freak out against somehow.
PT has reflex.
Ike has san. And very few others remain.
Pit... has an onslaught. We may not get 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th on a monthly basis here in the US... But we're going to get there. Soon... Mwahahaha...

no really, we're not all out to get you.

You're ALL ONE-DIMENSIONAL! LEAVE US ALONE!!

*runs away crying*

Spoiler

I don't think it's that bad... just too much pride methinks.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah, and Pit has Masashi. Neat.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@Chuee, Masashi has definitely being doing work with Pit in Japan and he's still doing better than Earth at any tourney they're at together [a shared 7th / 150 was the only tied placing I remember]. If he doesn't enter a tourney then it's usually because of financial issues [I heard he's kind of broke] but he still enters a lot and does consistently well.

Snake is clearly top 3 in this game. Between the 3 best characters [MK, Diddy, Snake] and the next characters [Falco, Wario, IC, Olimar] there's quite a noticeable gap. If you count Diddy's "bad" match-ups together you get -2 at most, in MK's case it's 0 or -1 and in Snake's -3 is the absolute maximum. Falco on the other hand has -3 from Pikachu alone.

 

[Kuro~]

Pit is so damned one-dimensional and mid tier. I don't know why we're even having this discussion. Masashi places well with Pit in Japan, which is cool. Good for him. Reflex used to place pretty well here with Pokemon Trainer, too. San wins tournaments with Ike. See also: Sonic.

Edit:Nevermind not worth my time

 

[Chuee]

Pit is so damned one-dimensional and mid tier. I don't know why we're even having this discussion. Masashi places well with Pit in Japan, which is cool. Good for him. Reflex used to place pretty well here with Pokemon Trainer, too. San wins tournaments with Ike. See also: Sonic.

Except he beats TOP players.
In here, that would be like placing top 8 consistently at nationals. None of the characters you mentioned have done that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I have the utmost respect for san as a player for the sheer amount of skill he displays. But comparing his wins to that of Masashi is a bit generous and imo the difference can hardly be attributed to the players' skills alone given how good Masashi is.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

I don't understand Marharbabaharba's attitude of "pit mains vs. the world"

no really, we're not all out to get you.

that attitude came from my beer. i know yall aren't out for pits.

@krys
lmfao, that pic too funny

edit: chuee's a boss. that is all
*fades into crowd*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Echoing what KID said a page or two ago. King Dedede is much much worse than we used to think but he'll always have some degree of success because he has fundamental mix-ups that will always work, no matter how advanced the metagame gets. Pit doesn't have that. He has arrows until close to opponent, then attempt to escape and fire more arrows.

Oh, and he's slow. Really slow. I don't know why people don't talk about this much but most of his moves are so laggy and awkwardly placed.

I tried to main Pit for a while and found him to be completely stiff and inflexible, and limited. And Slow. But he'll always have arrow looping.

Also agree with Gheb that Falco's bad match-up with Pikachu should hurt him way more than it does. I guess the problem is that people aren't inclined to pick up and learn Pikachu to fight Falco. Most top players now can play like 3 characters really well because between them, they can handle the entire cast. Pikachu ***** Falco but learning him just for that feels excessive so Pikachu won't invalidate Falco. HE TOTALLY INVALIDATES FOX THOUGH RIGHT LOL

 

[Esca]

I tried to main Pit for a while and found him to be completely stiff and inflexible, and limited. And Slow. But he'll always have arrow looping.

You're so ignorant.

I've beaten wayyyyyyyyyyyy more pros than you have with this ****ty character, you're obviously underrating Pit terribly.

I think Pit's the 9th best character in this game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You're so ignorant.

I've beaten wayyyyyyyyyyyy more pros than you have with this ****ty character, you're obviously underrating Pit terribly.

I think Pit's the 9th best character in this game.

Sure thing, princess.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Echoing what KID said a page or two ago. King Dedede is much much worse than we used to think but he'll always have some degree of success because he has fundamental mix-ups that will always work, no matter how advanced the metagame gets. Pit doesn't have that. He has arrows until close to opponent, then attempt to escape and fire more arrows.

Oh, and he's slow. Really slow. I don't know why people don't talk about this much but most of his moves are so laggy and awkwardly placed.

I tried to main Pit for a while and found him to be completely stiff and inflexible, and limited. And Slow. But he'll always have arrow looping.

Also agree with Gheb that Falco's bad match-up with Pikachu should hurt him way more than it does. I guess the problem is that people aren't inclined to pick up and learn Pikachu to fight Falco. Most top players now can play like 3 characters really well because between them, they can handle the entire cast. Pikachu ***** Falco but learning him just for that feels excessive so Pikachu won't invalidate Falco. HE TOTALLY INVALIDATES FOX THOUGH RIGHT LOL

i tried to main zss for a while and found her to be completely gimicky with only one valid smash attack and no short hop and limited. and Light, but she'll always have side-b.

and im not even joking either, this is what i found when i played zss, kinda like what you found when you mained pit FOR A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME. but if we look at the character from just our own perspective of them, well then zss is just as garbs imo as pit is in your opinion.

also, lol at pit being slow. you use zss, everything will feel slow to you. but pit is just about as fast as marth in both walking and running speed so he's just fine there, and i could talk to you about all of his speed boosting techniques but it'd probably just get misunderstood and under-rated like everything else.

and his only really laggy moves are ftilt and fair (to a much lesser extent), the rest of his moves are all 6frames and less (except bair but it's not laggy at all especially with the lasting hitbox) and all his aerials auto cancel out of short hop so idk where you're getting this laggy moves bit from.

edit: @supermodel
have you ever beaten m1k3h@ze in a money match? esca has. what about tr3la? didn't think so, esca has though. oh and how about i11m@tic, no? esca has.
i could go on and on but it's not worth my time to list off the people who are far better than you are that esca has beaten with solo pit because you'll just keep making excuses to discredit pit.
doube edit:
*not worth the ensuing arguement that would have followed*

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

san beat gnes with Ike.

 

[Chuee]

SFP, everything you said is horribly wrong.
So wrong my time doesn't need to be wasted responding to someone who played Pit for 2 minutes in training mode.
Also, yeah San beat Gnes a year ago.

 

[Judo777]

Ummm San has more success with Ike than probably ANY other player using a mid tier period. San has beaten a good amount of top players with Ike, is rated number 1 in his region, and places very high very consistently everywhere he goes.

 

[Steam]

San took 7th(?) at a national : 3

and a top pit beating Trela/mike/illmatic in a certain instance doesn't mean a character is more viable. I mean those matchups are all winnable so it's no surprise that happened. You'd need to see a much larger trend for pit's results to be up to par with those around him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

San took 7th(?) at a national : 3

and a top pit beating Trela/mike/illmatic in a certain instance doesn't mean a character is more viable. I mean those matchups are all winnable so it's no surprise that happened. You'd need to see a much larger trend for pit's results to be up to par with those around him.

This.

Also Pit sucks.

 

[Chuee]

Ummm San has more success with Ike than probably ANY other player using a mid tier period. San has beaten a good amount of top players with Ike, is rated number 1 in his region, and places very high very consistently everywhere he goes.

Not saying he doesn't but that has nothing to do with pit.

San took 7th(?) at a national : 3

and a top pit beating Trela/mike/illmatic in a certain instance doesn't mean a character is more viable. I mean those matchups are all winnable so it's no surprise that happened. You'd need to see a much larger trend for pit's results to be up to par with those around him.

Pit has beaten or gone even with top level players of basically every MU you could call hard for him.

 

[Alphicans]

@Chuee, Masashi has definitely being doing work with Pit in Japan and he's still doing better than Earth at any tourney they're at together [a shared 7th / 150 was the only tied placing I remember]. If he doesn't enter a tourney then it's usually because of financial issues [I heard he's kind of broke] but he still enters a lot and does consistently well.

Snake is clearly top 3 in this game. Between the 3 best characters [MK, Diddy, Snake] and the next characters [Falco, Wario, IC, Olimar] there's quite a noticeable gap. If you count Diddy's "bad" match-ups together you get -2 at most, in MK's case it's 0 or -1 and in Snake's -3 is the absolute maximum. Falco on the other hand has -3 from Pikachu alone.

I agree that falco gets ***** by pika pretty bad, and should affect his tier placement accordingly... However, I feel snake gets owned by pika almost as badly. I know ESAM thinks this too (or at least used to think that), and I don't know why there is so much debate over that. Pika has pretty much the same cg on snake as falco and fox, and it sets up into a huge edge guard opportunity. The chances of pika doing a 0-death is much greater than on falco imo. There is also a lot of controversy over how badly MK beats snake, as well as olimar, marth, falco etc.

IMO MK and diddy are the clear top 2 in the game at this point. From a match-up perspective, marth comes in at 3rd, and then falco, ICs, wario, olimar and snake come in after that in no order.

 

[Chuee]

I agree that falco gets ***** by pika pretty bad, and should affect his tier placement accordingly... However, I feel snake gets owned by pika almost as badly. I know ESAM thinks this too (or at least used to think that), and I don't know why there is so much debate over that. Pika has pretty much the same cg on snake as falco and fox, and it sets up into a huge edge guard opportunity. The chances of pika doing a 0-death is much greater than on falco imo. There is also a lot of controversy over how badly MK beats snake, as well as olimar, marth, falco etc.

IMO MK and diddy are the clear top 2 in the game at this point. From a match-up perspective, marth comes in at 3rd, and then falco, ICs, wario, olimar and snake come in after that in no order.

Pika and MK don't even come close to "******" snake.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

koolaid, esca, kiraflax, namesearch this and come in here and tell everyone who you beat with pit because this is getting tiresome. every one of these pit's have beaten pros of all the top levels with pit. most characters only have their top players recognized anyways right? why don't you see the list of who these people have beaten with their pit and stop just saying, "pit has no high profile wins durp durp durp" because in fact he has plenty.

thank you for not being blind to our side of the arguement and even supporting us chuee. again, chuee's a boss

 

[Alphicans]

Pika and MK don't even come close to "******" snake.

Still in that 08-09 metagame I see.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Still in that 08-09 metagame I see.

Considering that a **** MU is a 7-3 advantage, I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, they don't have **** MUs against Snake. >_>

 

[Steam]

if pits are beating all these top players then why are they never placing higher than a Ctier character in tourneys?

 

[Kuro~]

Actually mk is still pretty close. It just takes much more work to be a good snake main. THing is snake can actually be very defensive against mk even with his ability to "dance" around non-cooked nades. Snake can punish so many things and control zones against mk just as well as he used to. And kill early as ****. As high as 60/40 as low as 50/50imo. I can't really say anything about pika. Ally lost to esam esam lost to mvd...so idk. I could see 55:45 pika though.

Honestly, until everyone starts using pika for flaco then it shouldn't really hurt him too much. But the fact that he has such a gaping weakness WHICH BTW every falco eventually uses a secondary for is definitely call for a larger effect on his placement.

San took 7th(?) at a national : 3

and a top pit beating Trela/mike/illmatic in a certain instance doesn't mean a character is more viable. I mean those matchups are all winnable so it's no surprise that happened. You'd need to see a much larger trend for pit's results to be up to par with those around him.

You kinda supported one of the pit's arguments here. The lack of backbone behind the pit community. Also, if your gonna call out a need for a much larger trend...then give more than one piece of evidence for ike. Just saiyan. *inb4abunchofothersialreadyknowabout*

 

[Alphicans]

Considering that a **** MU is a 7-3 advantage, I'm going to go out on a limb and say no, they don't have **** MUs against Snake. >_>

I don't consider 7-3 a **** advantage. Plus we don't use ratios anymore!! Pika doesn't **** snake like he does falco, but it's arguable a +2 in his favor. Same goes to MK. These are not **** advantages like pika vs falco, but could very well be a 7-3 (if we were to use that system).

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I don't consider 7-3 a **** advantage. Plus we don't use ratios anymore!! Pika doesn't **** snake like he does falco, but it's arguable a +2 in his favor. Same goes to MK. These are not **** advantages like pika vs falco, but could very well be a 7-3 (if we were to use that system).

...

Please tell me you forgot to put a troll face in your post. Otherwise I'm going to be seriously facepalming.

And like I've said before: I don't use the new system. It's meaningless to me. Too vague if a freaking +2 could mean 7-3. inb4thisargumentagain

 

[Steam]

Also, if your gonna call out a need for a much larger trend...then give more than one piece of evidence for ike. Just saiyan. *inb4abunchofothersialreadyknowabout*

That's my point. Ike is still a bad character barely out of low tier and he can do things like that :/

 

[phi1ny3]

Aren't a lot of Pit's aerials pretty safe on block? I remember having a tricky time merely getting in once I closed distance on Sagemoon (back when he played), so I think that fundamentally compensates for the somewhat linear/laggy portion of his aerials (like the lag on his nair if he tries to FF w/ it, and his other aerials)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

San took 7th(?) at a national : 3

Nope

and a top pit beating Trela/mike/illmatic in a certain instance doesn't mean a character is more viable. I mean those matchups are all winnable so it's no surprise that happened. You'd need to see a much larger trend for pit's results to be up to par with those around him.

I don't think Esca represents top level play for Pit and I really doubt he thinks of himself that way either

if pits are beating all these top players then why are they never placing higher than a Ctier character in tourneys?

They are ... you just have to look for the right ones.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's my point. Ike is still a bad character barely out of low tier and he can do things like that :/

To be fair, the Ike vs Diddy MU is right along the 4-6 and 45-55 border and really depends on who you ask. It's not exactly a difficult match to learn.

 

[Alphicans]

...

Please tell me you forgot to put a troll face in your post. Otherwise I'm going to be seriously facepalming.

And like I've said before: I don't use the new system. It's meaningless to me. Too vague if a freaking +2 could mean 7-3. inb4thisargumentagain

Absolutely not trolling. So many match-ups are 6-4 or some BS, it's sickening. People are like afraid to use 7-3, because they feel it means it's a **** match-up. For what the ratios represent, 7-3 isn't terrible, it just means a strong advantage. I feel MK and pika have a strong advantage over snake.

 

[Chuee]

Still in that 08-09 metagame I see.

uh no.
People like you just don't play good snakes that know how to get out of juggles.
If top level snakes are going toe to toe with top level MKs and Pika's then those MUs are most likely not anywhere close to -2.

if pits are beating all these top players then why are they never placing higher than a Ctier character in tourneys?

Hint: I never said american pits did. American pits don't.
Japanese pit's do. Since everyone like's Sonic's performance at Dallas, imagine that except on a consistent basis.
@Alphicans: you basically just quoted what Pierce said on the Ktar livestream.

 

[Alphicans]

Yeah I've shared those same sentiments forever. I was actually quite surprised to hear someone actually agree with that lol.

It's soooooo easy to say I don't play good snakes based on my location. Who do you play? I've never even heard of anyone from kentucky :/. I am gonna go out on a limb here and say you're theorycrafting way harder than I am.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Still in that 08-09 metagame I see.

I agree, whenever someone disagrees with us we should just say they live in last year. Super effective!

You kinda supported one of the pit's arguments here. The lack of backbone behind the pit community. Also, if your gonna call out a need for a much larger trend...then give more than one piece of evidence for ike. Just saiyan. *inb4abunchofothersialreadyknowabout*

Wait, I didn't see anyone argue for a rise to 9th place for Ike.