Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Steam]

Aren't a lot of Pit's aerials pretty safe on block? I remember having a tricky time merely getting in once I closed distance on Sagemoon (back when he played), so I think that fundamentally compensates for the somewhat linear/laggy portion of his aerials (like the lag on his nair if he tries to FF w/ it, and his other aerials)

if they autocancel, otherwise he usually suffers pretty massive landing lag.

@Gheb- was it 9th then? I know San placed really high at something...

and lol... he does nothing to put him above his current tier...

@chuee- Who cares? That's japan, different metagame. He can be top tier in the Japanese metagame while he's mid tier here.

@nintendofreak- Ike has very winnable matchups with just about everyone except maybe MK. he just loses slightly to everyone XD

 

[~ Gheb ~]

@chuee- Who cares? That's japan, different metagame. He can be top tier in the Japanese metagame while he's mid tier here.

This argument is so ******** ... really sick of hearing it. Japan are ****ing good at this game ... easily better than any other region. They play to win definitely to a larger extent than anybody else does. Whatever doesn't make them win gets excluded out of their game asap. They plank, scrooge and play game as if their life depended on it. Don't give me that "different metagame" crap. They still care about winning and they even exclude a strong factor in Pit's game: CP stages.

 

[Alphicans]

Japan is no doubt incredibly good, but I'd be very careful when considering them, because they only play on what? Like 3 stages?

 

[Steam]

This argument is so ******** ... really sick of hearing it. Japan are ****ing good at this game ... easily better than any other region. They play to win definitely to a larger extent than anybody else does. Whatever doesn't make them win gets excluded out of their game asap. They plank, scrooge and play game as if their life depended on it. Don't give me that "different metagame" crap. They still care about winning and they even exclude a strong factor in Pit's game: CP stages.

That explains everything.

this is a North American (and maybe Europe sometimes? (It shouldn't include europe)) tier list. Meaning Japan does not matter. If masashi moved to America and started ****** everything then sure... But he lives in Japan and our tier list doesn't encompass that.

 

[Krystedez]

This argument is so ******** ... really sick of hearing it. Japan are ****ing good at this game ... easily better than any other region. They play to win definitely to a larger extent than anybody else does. Whatever doesn't make them win gets excluded out of their game asap. They plank, scrooge and play game as if their life depended on it. Don't give me that "different metagame" crap. They still care about winning and they even exclude a strong factor in Pit's game: CP stages.

THIS SO MUCH THIS.

Seriously guys, you are all "waaah. japanese players can HAVE their high-tier (insert not high-tier char here)!! As long as we have our (insert not high-tier char here) in mid-tier!!" You can't invalidate an entire player base of the community based on that, I can garuntee you that if the best main of every character came from japan and participated in tournaments, results would differ like MAD. they would roll us over, except for the ones that don't underestimate their prowess at the game and actually strive the same they do for practice and skill.

Japan is no doubt incredibly good, but I'd be very careful when considering them, because they only play on what? Like 3 stages?

That's a very closed-minded way to look at their play, they play on several stages including Delfino and other areas.

I played a Falco player on wifi with near perfect connection (since you know it's wifi). He was japanese, but lives in Seattle now. His Falco could Bdacus like it was nothing, do the double laser from a DJ from the ledge perfectly, chain grab and mix it up, mind game, space perfectly... It was all tech skill perfected with the mindset of an American player and consistency of any top player. It was amazing, he had pure combos!

His name was Filip. He beat me 2-0 in an even matchup with Pit on both SV and then Frigate. It was VERY close. While just a little while ago I was shutting down Falcos. Granted it's wifi, and some Falcos just rant or complain about wifi, while this guy drops the bull!@#$ and plays like he MEANS it.

Anyways, pointless rant. Just showing my support for the Japanese player base.

In any case, I think American pits are rising up to the opportunity, while Japanese pits still are doing work. If you can't realize that, if you can't SEE that Pits are placing BETTER than they were, and are beating BETTER players... I don't know what else to say

EDIT: I just read Steam's post. It's a valid post. I understand if the tier-list only takes into account American/European efforts/opinions. But this is the MU chart, and I think it deserves everything.

 

[Alphicans]

How is it a close minded way to look at their play? I've never seen them play on delfino. I see them play on BF, SV and FD. I have never seen a video of anywhere else, sorry for not watching a video where they played on delfino >__>.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

@steam, this isn't about tier placement, im talking MU ratios. people in here were saying that pit doesn't go even with *insertcharacterhere* because they don't keep track of who he beats. i showed that he does in fact beat top level players with those characters to show that these MUs are more under rated than you guys think. MUs and tier placement should not have an effect on each other unless we go by MU only based tier list.
and also, idk if i stated it earlier but all of pit's aerials auto cancel out of short hop so yes they are very safe on block since auto cancelling them is so easy

 

[Krystedez]

Masashi vs 6B I think, Pit v Dedede. Went to Delfino several times.

I'll try to look it up

 

[Krystedez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb34QLa5aRs A diddy vs masashi.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6zaSvCg-8s An Ic's vs masashi

I can't find the D3 vs Pit ones though for some reason. Doesn't Gheb have an archive of videos?

Edit: herp derp sorry for the double post, I forgot to go and edit

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qb34QLa5aRs

here is an old vid of masashi vs. machdash @delphino

anyways, they play on FD, BF, SV, Lylat, Delphino, Halberd. that is their list, and tbh those are a lot of the stages you commonly see used here in america bar RC and brinstar

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That explains everything.

this is a North American (and maybe Europe sometimes? (It shouldn't include europe)) tier list. Meaning Japan does not matter. If masashi moved to America and started ****** everything then sure... But he lives in Japan and our tier list doesn't encompass that.

Yes, let's ignore evidence because if it doesn't happen in North America it obvious doesn't happen at all.

Brilliant!

 

[z00ted]

have you ever beaten m1k3h@ze in a money match? esca has. what about tr3la? didn't think so, esca has though. oh and how about i11m@tic, no? esca has.
i could go on and on but it's not worth my time to list off the people who are far better than you are that esca has beaten with solo pit because you'll just keep making excuses to discredit pit.
doube edit:
*not worth the ensuing arguement that would have followed*

LOOOOL Esca has NEVER beaten my Peach.

 

[Steam]

Yes, let's ignore evidence because if it doesn't happen in North America it obvious doesn't happen at all.

Brilliant!

They aren't part of OUR metagame. so we can't include them since they don't play in our metagame enough.

If Lucario won every tournament that took place on the mars it doesn't mean he should be top tier here.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

really? he said he has beaten your peach before, idk if it was tourney or not im just going with what im told around here. yall say esca ***** people's **** out here and he places pretty well at the tourney's he goes too so idk im just going with what i hear around here

 

[Chuee]

The japan doesn't matter argument is stupid.
1. "They only play on 3 stages."
No they don't
2. "They don't play for money."
When I have time I'll go look up the 9 minute match of Masashi planking the hell out of 9B's ICs.
3. "This is a NA tier list."
So? A tier list is supposed to be a representation of how good each character is, and I'm positive we're playing the same game.
but it's ok. when Japan goes to Apex you guys will see.

 

[z00ted]

really? he said he has beaten your peach before, idk if it was tourney or not im just going with what im told around here. yall say esca ***** people's **** out here and he places pretty well at the tourney's he goes too so idk im just going with what i hear around here

He took me to game 5 in mid tier grand finals without a LGL limit.

Every set that was on a neutral (which he usually counterpicked me to) I was timed out with 120+ ledge grabs or more. I counterpicked him to Rainbow Cruise, Delfino, and Lylat so I could actually fight him and win.

Sadly, he could still plank on Lylat (I should have picked Castle seige) and he had over 140 ledge grabs. I still won though, by just outplaying him when he tried to scrooge to the opposite side.

38 Minute Set.

********

 

[Juushichi]

Pit vs Peach is ********.

 

[Conviction]

I want to go to APEX '12 so I can play with some of my Japanese idols.

If I can't though, I can't wait to see them upset all you Japan nay-sayers again. Only if Yui could come over...

Also I really feel this pit thing is going somewhat like some people view another character. Since I don't really know much about Pit I'll stay out of this, but so this can be productive can you guys actually make points instead of throwing useless insults. Lol

ALSO can someone explain what makes Japan's data useless? I'm pretty sure even in the states we have different rulesets and stagelist so what is the difference with Japan? Try and answer my question without contradicting/using double standards, that's all I've really seen against Japan.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

LoL sure. But only because I love you.

I have never played friendlies with mr. seibrik since winterfest. The streak will continue

really late name search but i've been busy:


on a related note, wyatt never played me since the first apex, and we all saw how that turned out for him in the end.... just sayyyyinnnn

and esam plays me allll the time, and i havn't beaten him in tourny matches, let alone a set, in.... 4 tournies?


i like friendlies tho

 

[Steam]

You can't apply Japan because it's its own metagame that has mixed with ours in exactly one instance. The US has different rulesets but the best of every region/character frequently play each other in regionals/nationals.

I mean a Japanese pit came to the US in once instance... and took 17th... which was earth at apex.

 

[Conviction]

Fair enough. I still don't think that's enough to not to say all elements of Japanese metagame can't be used here.

 

[Judo777]

wait a second Chuee is from Kentucky??? How have I never seen you anywhere? do you not travel to KY tourneys?

Also KY has no real good Snakes. I am probably the best Snake in KY (the I second him) and my Snake is nothing special. Keep in mind KY has picked up new people that I haven't gotten to play so I might be lying about the Snake comment. I'm fairly certain I am the best Snake in KY tho.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Japan is irrelevant because they don't play here on a consistent basis, don't use our rules, and can't be reached easily to ask their opinion on things. We can't ask many of their best players "What do you think of this MU?", and from what I last heard they don't even have an official tier list. The one in that Japan topic was some guy's opinion, unless that was proven false later.

There is also the fact that this is the NA/Europe/Australia tier list. Why? Because we can actually discuss the tier list with people from those areas. Get the majority of Japan's smash game on this site, then you can have an actual argument to use their data.

 

[Kuro~]

Japan is irrelevant because they don't play here on a consistent basis, don't use our rules, and can't be reached easily to ask their opinion on things. We can't ask many of their best players "What do you think of this MU?", and from what I last heard they don't even have an official tier list. The one in that Japan topic was some guy's opinion, unless that was proven false later.

There is also the fact that this is the NA/Europe/Australia tier list. Why? Because we can actually discuss the tier list with people from those areas. Get the majority of Japan's smash game on this site, then you can have an actual argument to use their data.

I agree we can't use it as a central basis of argument. But i also agree it can't just be dismissed as not worthy of influencing opinions.

if they autocancel, otherwise he usually suffers pretty massive landing lag.

@Gheb- was it 9th then? I know San placed really high at something...

and lol... he does nothing to put him above his current tier...

@chuee- Who cares? That's japan, different metagame. He can be top tier in the Japanese metagame while he's mid tier here.

@nintendofreak- Ike has very winnable matchups with just about everyone except maybe MK. he just loses slightly to everyone XD

Not that much of a different metagame really. Watch the most recent vids and tell me that. ALso @ tier placement. Depends on if you judge tiers by character placings alone. And if you do then tiers can't be several countries involved.

@Autocancel thing, what maha said about it. ALso FF retreating fair is literally unpunishable by about 80-90% of all moves on shield.

@steam, this isn't about tier placement, im talking MU ratios. people in here were saying that pit doesn't go even with *insertcharacterhere* because they don't keep track of who he beats. i showed that he does in fact beat top level players with those characters to show that these MUs are more under rated than you guys think. MUs and tier placement should not have an effect on each other unless we go by MU only based tier list.
and also, idk if i stated it earlier but all of pit's aerials auto cancel out of short hop so yes they are very safe on block since auto cancelling them is so easy

Sorry but i disagree. Matchups should affect tier placement IF they are backed up by results.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Except he beats TOP players.
In here, that would be like placing top 8 consistently at nationals. None of the characters you mentioned have done that.

ummmmm... sonic at MLG?
san got 7th and almost beat ally at the first oos tourney he went to, which was a VC
come on now. dont say stuff like that when its so clear that youre wrong.

You're so ignorant.

I've beaten wayyyyyyyyyyyy more pros than you have with this ****ty character, you're obviously underrating Pit terribly.

I think Pit's the 9th best character in this game.

***** I beat esam. does that mean sonic is better than pikachu? hell no. I think you are over rating the character as much as SFP is under rating him.

Not saying he doesn't but that has nothing to do with pit.


Pit has beaten or gone even with top level players of basically every MU you could call hard for him.

if pits are beating all these top players then why are they never placing higher than a Ctier character in tourneys?

i dont think anyone ever answered this question.
if his matchups with the tourney common character are that good, he should be able to prove it multiple times in the course of one tourney to at least place in the money sometimes.

He took me to game 5 in mid tier grand finals without a LGL limit.

Every set that was on a neutral (which he usually counterpicked me to) I was timed out with 120+ ledge grabs or more. I counterpicked him to Rainbow Cruise, Delfino, and Lylat so I could actually fight him and win.

Sadly, he could still plank on Lylat (I should have picked Castle seige) and he had over 140 ledge grabs. I still won though, by just outplaying him when he tried to scrooge to the opposite side.

38 Minute Set.

********

LOLWOW, thats amazing lol.

ALSO can someone explain what makes Japan's data useless? I'm pretty sure even in the states we have different rulesets and stagelist so what is the difference with Japan? Try and answer my question without contradicting/using double standards, that's all I've really seen against Japan.

Im going to call on Gheb to verify this information.

it seems that most japanese tourneys are won these days by masashi and nietono, among others. a lot of the tourneys in japan, arent won by mk. So if were just to take the results at face value, it would suggest that mk isnt the best character in the game. but we all know that that idea is stupid. even they probably think its stupid to believe mk isnt the best in the game. but we cant discuss it with them or use our experiences playing with them, or even playing with people theyve played (a la orion in europe right now. he has the unique ability to compare the numerous people he played with in america consistently, with the people he now plays consistently in europe.)

so the only thing we can do, is take their results at face value. which really doesnt help anything. so its better to not consider most of what they do for our tier list.

I mean a Japanese pit came to the US in once instance... and took 17th... which was earth at apex.

and from what i remember, this was supposedly an accomplishment for pit at the time. granted, it was a good placing, but thats not good enough to make an arguement for the character to rise in the tier list. its not like pits can say, 'earth. apex. 17th. bam.' to prove a point the same way the sonics can just go, 'two sonics in mlg top 8, sup?'

Japan is irrelevant because they don't play here on a consistent basis, don't use our rules, and can't be reached easily to ask their opinion on things. We can't ask many of their best players "What do you think of this MU?", and from what I last heard they don't even have an official tier list. The one in that Japan topic was some guy's opinion, unless that was proven false later.

There is also the fact that this is the NA/Europe/Australia tier list. Why? Because we can actually discuss the tier list with people from those areas. Get the majority of Japan's smash game on this site, then you can have an actual argument to use their data.

basically this.

 

[Chuee]

I mean a Japanese pit came to the US in once instance... and took 17th... which was earth at apex.

He's a lot better now.
Not to mention his losses in the bracket were Ally (top US player) and Sweat Pee (japanese player)
@KID: grats missing the word consistently.
Tell me when Sonic or ike has consistently placed top 8 in nationals

 

[san.]

It's hard for a character to consistently place top 8 in nationals when MK takes at least 3-4 spots on average. 4 spots gone unless the MK player happens to use another character one or two matches.

I understand what you're getting at, though.

 

[Steam]

He's a lot better now.
Not to mention his losses in the bracket were Ally (top US player) and Sweat Pee (japanese player)
@KID: grats missing the word consistently.
Tell me when Sonic or ike has consistently placed top 8 in nationals

every player is a lot better now...

 

[Chuee]

every player is a lot better now...

*Sigh*
stop making this hard on yourself. His placings back then weren't as good as his placings now.
simple.

 

[Steam]

*Sigh*
stop making this hard on yourself. His placings back then weren't as good as his placings now.
simple.

Either way it doesn't matter until he or other pits start making placings in the US

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Either way it doesn't matter until he or other pits start making placings in the US

Yes, it does matter obviously. Being ignorant is one thing - but you're ignorant completely by choice. Why are you making yourself look stupid like this?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Nice job avoiding the other arguments to pick on the one you can respond to.

 

[Steam]

Yes, it does matter obviously. Being ignorant is one thing - but you're ignorant completely by choice. Why are you making yourself look stupid like this?

as I've explained before, it's a different metagame and the US and Japan don't compete with each other enough to make an accurate comparison.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Well personally I look at the game itself and don't exclude other regions.

Although what are Musashi and Earth doing differently that other Pit's are not doing, that is something I would be interested. That would point at a playstyle difference to me or metagame one if they are more successful in Japan.

I'd at least consider it, since there does seem to be a difference. I mean, Europe's best player is a Wario or Marth right? Gluttony and Leon? I'm unsure since I haven't been paying attention recently to Europe's metagame.

 

[Matador]

I like how whenever Pit's being discussed, this debate follows closely behind.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I like how whenever Pit's being discussed, this debate follows closely behind.

Of course it does.

>Pit main mentions their character
>Gheb mentions Pit mains in Japan
>2 pages of argument beings

 

[da K.I.D.]

im sorry that I have to keep bringing sonic back into this, but hes my biggest area of expertise...


espy, last time i checked, still believes that sonic is a borderline character on the edge of low tier. But he typically places as if he were playing a high tier character.

TKD thinks fox is like top 10 in the game. and he places like fox is top tier.

what does earth think of pit? with sonic and fox we can talk to these people and get their reflections and opinions on their matches and their characters, weed out bias and misinformation, and through that we can come to a more accurate conclusion on the actual state of affairs when it comes to these characters. we cant do that with japanese pit players. all we can do with them is look at their placings and matches, we cant even ask them personally. and to me, thats like trying to buy a car, only looking at pictures of it beforehand. not getting any specs or even a test drive. it doesnt give you the full scope of knowledge needed to make an educated decision. And thats why i think its best to not use japanese tournaments for our tier list.

 

[Krystedez]

im sorry that I have to keep bringing sonic back into this, but hes my biggest area of expertise...


espy, last time i checked, still believes that sonic is a borderline character on the edge of low tier. But he typically places as if he were playing a high tier character.

TKD thinks fox is like top 10 in the game. and he places like fox is top tier.

what does earth think of pit? with sonic and fox we can talk to these people and get their reflections and opinions on their matches and their characters, weed out bias and misinformation, and through that we can come to a more accurate conclusion on the actual state of affairs when it comes to these characters. we cant do that with japanese pit players. all we can do with them is look at their placings and matches, we cant even ask them personally. and to me, thats like trying to buy a car, only looking at pictures of it beforehand. not getting any specs or even a test drive. it doesnt give you the full scope of knowledge needed to make an educated decision. And thats why i think its best to not use japanese tournaments for our tier list.

You can't see the statistics or elements of their gameplay, staring you right in the face? We don't need their word; just watch their actions. That is what we are defined by, not theorycraft, emotions, opinion, and reflection, but pure and honest gameplay.

If Masashi or Earth both think Pit belongs in high or mid-to-high-tier, like, uhh, the rest of japan's players, then what more do you want? Sob stories of defeat to their hardest matchups? Frame advantage scenarios and curious events that occur between specific matchups and players? What matters in the end though is what they ARE doing, what videos ARE there for us to see, and how we can interpret their strive to win being the same as ours, only with a little extra talent and practice.

I can understand the MAJORITY of the reason for not wanting to use japanese tournaments as faithfully as we do our own regions' tournaments, but don't just shrug them off completely, and DEFINITELY make notice of it for specific match up discussion, which the BBR MATCHUP CHART (the name of this topic btw) shouldn't discriminate, period. I could care very little about our tier list to be quite honest.

 

[da K.I.D.]

You can't see the statistics or elements of their gameplay, staring you right in the face? We don't need their word; just watch their actions. That is what we are defined by, not theorycraft, emotions, opinion, and reflection, but pure and honest gameplay.

If Masashi or Earth both think Pit belongs in high or mid-to-high-tier, like, uhh, the rest of japan's players, then what more do you want? Sob stories of defeat to their hardest matchups? Frame advantage scenarios and curious events that occur between specific matchups and players? What matters in the end though is what they ARE doing, what videos ARE there for us to see, and how we can interpret their strive to win being the same as ours, only with a little extra talent and practice.

I can understand the MAJORITY of the reason for not wanting to use japanese tournaments as faithfully as we do our own regions' tournaments, but don't just shrug them off completely, and DEFINITELY make notice of it for specific match up discussion, which the BBR MATCHUP CHART (the name of this topic btw) shouldn't discriminate, period. I could care very little about our tier list to be quite honest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7n907FSV0

I can haz hi tire and a pluz tew on flaco nao?

 

[Krystedez]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm7n907FSV0

I can haz hi tire and a pluz tew on flaco nao?

Yeah. I'm done trying to talk against one-liners. Try reading a post and making a coherent response to points that I made to continue the discussion. Otherwise you just look childish.

Oh wait.

Edit: Not mad anymore.

Edit 2: Watched whole video. I love Espy's sonic. I'm just balls with the blue dude.