Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Alphicans]

Kuro, if fox players go to MK for pika. sheik or IC's, then we're not rating fox any longer. The tier list should represent how well a character can do without relying on secondaries to win. Fox absolutely needs a secondary to win a tournament (if people started to play to win more often).

 

[Kuro~]

@kuro- D3 is one of lucario's worst matchups.

and why are GW, Fox, and pit above ZSS and luc?

Ya ik that lol. I forgot to put that in there and edited it prolly after you read it but b4 you posted

I have GaW and fox above because how they do vs A tier and the below B tiers as well as if they have any "death" matchups. Lucy loses to falco, marth, d3, mk, snake, and wario(iirc about wario) Fox goes even or -1 w/marth loses to IC even w/flaco, evenw/diddy, and even to +1 with snake. GaW doesn't lose hard to anyone above and beats pit/zss iirc. Pit has better matchups with A tier than lucy and zss which is why he's *just* above them. Lucy also beats a few more people "harder" than zss which is why i had him above zss.


Ya i thought about that more while i've been posting this. Only thing i would change possibly is having d3 in place of fox.

So it'd be

 

[Chuee]

Kuro, if fox players go to MK for pika. sheik or IC's, then we're not rating fox any longer. The tier list should represent how well a character can do without relying on secondaries to win. Fox absolutely needs a secondary to win a tournament (if people started to play to win more often).

I've seen Fox win tournaments without a secondary.
GG cp?

 

[Steam]

Lucario doesn't lose to falco... it's even a 0 on the chart... And Marth is very close to even... it's barely a -1

and lucario doesn't have any unwinnable death matchups... Trela beat Razer like last week :I

look at the chart... GW has 5 -2 matchups while lucario has 3... GW loses -2 to MK, Snake, Olimar, ICs, and Marth... While lucario has -2s agaist Snake, MK, and D3... he loses -1 to diddy, wario, Marth, GW, and fox. However Fox, GW, and marth are highly debated as possible 0s.

 

[Alphicans]

Because no one is hard CPing him. Did you not notice my brackets?

 

[Steam]

Though either way I wouldn't put pit in Btier... he doesn't have the results or even the results to support his IMO inflated matchups.

 

[Chuee]

Because no one is hard CPing him. Did you not notice my brackets?

You're exactly right.
Lets drop Falco 2 tiers because he can't fight pocket Pika.

 

[Conviction]

You misseed the point that you made that he countered. You said tier list is based on winning tournies with secondaries, fox has won without secondaries. You should bring down falco for the pika and or ics mu too by your logic.

 

[da K.I.D.]

using the 'fox is bad because he gets hard countered by pika' line of thought is a bad idea, because of the first law of alchemy.

in order to obtain, something of equal value must be lost.

in order to drop fox based on that pika matchup, wed also have to drop every character that needs to have a pocket pika to beat fox, because they cant win against fox, without pocketing pika. otherwise, you wouldnt need to pick up the secondary.

 

[Kuro~]

Lucario doesn't lose to falco... it's even a 0 on the chart... And Marth is very close to even... it's barely a -1

and lucario doesn't have any unwinnable death matchups... Trela beat Razer like last week :I

look at the chart... GW has 5 -2 matchups while lucario has 3... GW loses -2 to MK, Snake, Olimar, ICs, and Marth... While lucario has -2s agaist Snake, MK, and D3... he loses -1 to diddy, wario, Marth, GW, and fox. However Fox, GW, and marth are highly debated as possible 0s.

Last time i checked gaw was a while ago...so that's my bad. I didn't say death counters. Ik lucario doesn't have any. But he also has worse matchups against a tier than Pit. In light of that...









Or









or












This is assuming the hypothetical matchups are correct and in future will be supported with evidence and depends on the thought process behind it.

Because no one is hard CPing him. Did you not notice my brackets?

How are you gonna know they use fox? ANd if you do they can just call for double blind then you run the risk of being put against a counter for your counter cuz likelihood is that if you know theirs they know yours.

Though either way I wouldn't put pit in Btier... he doesn't have the results or even the results to support his IMO inflated matchups.

This is assuming it's correct. And he does have the results to support most of it as far as muchups go. But not tourney wise. I agree there. Though i think thats gonna change with how much activity/effort is being put in lately.

 

[Alphicans]

You misseed the point that you made that he countered. You said tier list is based on winning tournies with secondaries, fox has won without secondaries. You should bring down falco for the pika and or ics mu too by your logic.

Yes, falco should drop because of the match-up with pika. IC's not so much.

 

[Conviction]

Lol shout outs to kid for taking my thought process a step farther.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Last time i checked gaw was a while ago...so that's my bad. I didn't say death counters. Ik lucario doesn't have any. But he also has worse matchups against a tier than Pit. In light of that...









Or









or












This is assuming the hypothetical matchups are correct and in future will be supported with evidence and depends on the thought process behind it.

How are you gonna know they use fox? ANd if you do they can just call for double blind then you run the risk of being put against a counter for your counter cuz likelihood is that if you know theirs they know yours.

This is assuming it's correct. And he does have the results to support most of it as far as muchups go. But not tourney wise. I agree there. Though i think thats gonna change with how much activity/effort is being put in lately.

OR Pit is most likely top of D tier!

If Pit was as good as you people make him seen then results would reflect that. Everyone just ends Pit with Mk so he is irrelevant to the metagame because the matchup sucks for Pit. He also loses to Falco, GaW, and a few more. Diddy probably beats Pit. Snake is likely even from what I have seen. Pit beats Ics. Pit loses to Marth. Etc.

Pit mains are worst then Marth mains at this point for validating their character. Results indicate OTHERWISE.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Then there's the fact that Falco loses just as badly to Pikachu and ICs, and loses to Sheik almost as badly for the same reason. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CWHqwjJa70 is a fun video to watch.

 

[Conviction]

Some one drop every character that needs a pocket pika for fox and all people who change characters against them

 

[Laem]

Honestly Falco Sheik is Falco's favor except for when falco's gettin his *** ftilted

 

[Kuro~]

OR Pit is most likely top of D tier!

If Pit was as good as you people make him seen then results would reflect that. Everyone just ends Pit with Mk so he is irrelevant to the metagame because the matchup sucks for Pit. He also loses to Falco, GaW, and a few more. Diddy probably beats Pit. Snake is likely even from what I have seen. Pit beats Ics. Pit loses to Marth. Etc.

Pit mains are worst then Marth mains at this point for validating their character. Results indicate OTHERWISE.

Not really when you barely have any legitimate players. And pit doesn't lose to falco. He barely loses to gaw -1 and vs marth is really close as well. He definitely does not lose to diddy. And mk is 60:40 no worse than some others.

 

[Steam]

Not really when you barely have any legitimate players. And pit doesn't lose to falco. He barely loses to gaw -1 and vs marth is really close as well. He definitely does not lose to diddy. And mk is 60:40 no worse than some others.

yeah you can't really call out pit for having an inflated MK matchup at -2 when characters like DK and mario also have the same rating against MK...

but the not legitimate players john isn't valid... I could argue that Lucario is better than Falco and theorycraft the crap out of him and say that none of his mains are using him to his full potential :/

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure based on what I've seen some ICs and Vex say about it, ICs beat Pit.

Falco doesn't lose as bad as Fox does to Pika and ICs.

I'm not sure why Pit's MUs are better than Lucario's against A tier, Snake sure he does better, but the rest I can't say I would agree. Luc defiantly does better against MK, Climbers, Wario than Pit does. Marth maybe I would say Luc does better, Diddy I can't say.

 

[Steam]

This matchup chart really needs to have its MK ratings fixed IMO lol

 

[Seagull Joe]

Then there's the fact that Falco loses just as badly to Pikachu and ICs, and loses to Sheik almost as badly for the same reason. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CWHqwjJa70 is a fun video to watch.

Falco doesn't lose to Sheik.

Honestly Falco Sheik is Falco's favor except for when falco's gettin his *** ftilted

Indeed. His lasers make it hard for Sheik to get in range to ftilt in the first place. And IAP helps.

Also, the cg spike makes Sheik eat 70% on average because she'll be forced to recover on stage after the dair and be in a position to receive a punishment.

Falco's jab makes it harder for him to be Ftilt'd. Frame 2 so good.

 

[phi1ny3]

Sheik v. Falco's pretty even. Both got ridiculous damage rackers. Falco can wall out sheiks ftilt pretty well onstage w/ jab, sheik cannot directly challenge jab outside of aerials/getting jab in first as well. Both of them edeguard each other well (well, sheik edgeguards harder imo, but her recovery's much worse), needles keep falco's camp game in check to the point of making it hard to outright camp her if he's behind in the lead.

Then there's the fact that Falco loses just as badly to Pikachu and ICs, and loses to Sheik almost as badly for the same reason. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CWHqwjJa70 is a fun video to watch.

You forgot that in that set, BluB won (although tbh, Biggad should've won round 3, everyone sitting there when he dtilted at high percents said he dsmashed but got a bad input, and he tripped, which was silly).

@Seagull: What happened to DIing the spike onto the stage? Mind you she probably still has to take a free smash/aerial after unless the player's super pro and can tech that kind of thing consistently, but it's better than having to eat tons of damage trying to recover.

tl;dr
Whoever's offstage: loses lots
If sheik is at 0-30%: Falco's going to win in terms of making the opponent's options implicitly limited
If Falco is at 20-40%: Sheik is going to win from the same principle as the former mentioned
Whoever's got a grab: imo wins, both set up for aerial kills pretty well
Very momentum based, so even getting the lead won't make things guaranteed for either party.

 

[stingers]

meh, as far as match analysis goes, biggad won.

 

[Chuee]

I'm not sure why Pit's MUs are better than Lucario's against A tier, Snake sure he does better, but the rest I can't say I would agree. Luc defiantly does better against MK, Climbers, Wario than Pit does. Marth maybe I would say Luc does better, Diddy I can't say.

MK I wouldn't say definitely.
All of the Lucario vs MK high level matches make the MU look really rough for cario.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Sheik v. Falco's pretty even. Both got ridiculous damage rackers. Falco can wall out sheiks ftilt pretty well onstage w/ jab, sheik cannot directly challenge jab outside of aerials/getting jab in first as well. Both of them edeguard each other well (well, sheik edgeguards harder imo, but her recovery's much worse), needles keep falco's camp game in check to the point of making it hard to outright camp her if he's behind in the lead.

You forgot that in that set, BluB won (although tbh, Biggad should've won round 3, everyone sitting there when he dtilted at high percents said he dsmashed but got a bad input, and he tripped, which was silly).

@Seagull: What happened to DIing the spike onto the stage? Mind you she probably still has to take a free smash/aerial after unless the player's super pro and can tech that kind of thing consistently, but it's better than having to eat tons of damage trying to recover.

tl;dr
Whoever's offstage: loses lots
If sheik is at 0-30%: Falco's going to win in terms of making the opponent's options implicitly limited
If Falco is at 20-40%: Sheik is going to win from the same principle as the former mentioned
Whoever's got a grab: imo wins, both set up for aerial kills pretty well
Very momentum based, so even getting the lead won't make things guaranteed for either party.

I'm not talking about QCDI in this case. I can't take into account everyone and their mother are going to have chinese DI suddenly after watching Gimr's video on how to DI the Cg>Spike Falco has.

 

[Steam]

MK I wouldn't say definitely.
All of the Lucario vs MK high level matches make the MU look really rough for cario.

that's how it is for everyone vs. Meta Knight... are Pits beating top MKs here?

but for the most part you see top lucarios losing to snakes and D3s... like at WHOBO3 Trela lost to Ally and Atomsk :I

it's +2 because of MK's CP... on neutrals it's arguably only +1

 

[Krystedez]

Indicate exactly what match ups you think are inflated for , and I will go one by one with anyone about them. I'm honestly interested in why people think they're inflated at all. In fact, I think they're slightly deflated.

 

[Chuee]

that's how it is for everyone vs. Meta Knight... are Pits beating top MKs here?

but for the most part you see top lucarios losing to snakes and D3s... like at WHOBO3 Trela lost to Ally and Atomsk :I

it's +2 because of MK's CP... on neutrals it's arguably only +1

No it isn't
The vids Im talking about are Lee Martin vs M2K, Trela vs Anti and Dojo.
I don't know about you, but a lot of top level vids vs MK don't look as bad as that.
I don't even think I've seen any vids of good pits vs good mks here besides Tyrant vs Kiraflax (1 game) and he did about as good as Trela even though there's a huge skill gap between him and Tyrant.
Even so, it's stupid to say Japanese Pits don't matter. The Pit's here are not nearly as good as the top MKs here so it's silly to expect them to do well against top MKs. The Pit's in Japan however, are on a similar level to the top Japanese MKs, and they do just fine against them.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MK I wouldn't say definitely.
All of the Lucario vs MK high level matches make the MU look really rough for cario.

Lucario does better than Pit in that MU, I'm sure of that.

 

[san.]

Things begin to fall apart when you compare a matchup number for 1 character to another.

EX: comparing MK's +2s and +3s

 

[Steam]

Lucario does better than Pit in that MU, I'm sure of that.

This for certain... also keep in mind pretty much every top MK has the lucario matchup down pretty well due to MK getting ***** if he doesn't. while like no one uses pit and any given top player probably lacks pit exp.

Lucario does well enough against MK lmao... compared to everyone else he's closer to the current +1s... the MKs even had the ratio at +1 and we had to debate it to a +2

 

[da K.I.D.]

Indicate exactly what match ups you think are inflated for , and I will go one by one with anyone about them. I'm honestly interested in why people think they're inflated at all. In fact, I think they're slightly deflated.

I think sonic beats pit.

and to go back to my point about using videos to determine this kind of thing, theres only one high level pit vs sonic set recorded and sonic wins it. despite, imo, the pit player being of a higher calibur than the sonic player.

Lucario does well enough against MK lmao... compared to everyone else he's closer to the current +1s... the MKs even had the ratio at +1 and we had to debate it to a +2

i feel like ive heard this story from at least 7 different characters.

 

[Steam]

i feel like ive heard this story from at least 7 different characters.

that's because the MKs did it wrong : 3

 

[xDD-Master]

people still think snake is better than he actually is lol
(Just read the -2 and -2 for luc/zss roflmao)

 

[Esca]

Maybe with Mk. Esca mains Mk.

Well that's realllllllllllllyyyyyyyy gay. Taking the concept of "Play to win" to the bare maximum.

Don't mention Drug use.

~ Red Ryu

I couldn't move fast, all I wanted to do was shoot arrows. I wasn't even playing to win.

Also, I reflected Illmatic's stitch face at 0% first life game 2 and killed him. He rage quit.

 

[Espy Rose]

espy, last time i checked, still believes that sonic is a borderline character on the edge of low tier. But he typically places as if he were playing a high tier character.

You enjoy living in early 2010?

I've actually been supporting a bump up for Sonic.

 

[z00ted]

I couldn't move fast, all I wanted to do was shoot arrows. I wasn't even playing to win.

Alright, I'm calling johns. You were sitting on that ledge for 38 minutes to..not win?

LOL

 

[Kuro~]

Alright, I'm calling johns. You were sitting on that ledge for 38 minutes to..not win?

LOL

It's like the ultimate troll for mid-match.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

References to drug use are not cool while I mod here.

 

[Judo777]

Oh i get it. When it says "~Red Ryu" thats an edit. I'm slow lol.

Also it might be a long drawn out conversation but debating with kryz is worth it. If you support your points well enough he might agree. He and I debated Sheik v Pit for like EVER lol.