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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

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Maharba the Mystic

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lmfao at sonic beating pit.

also ya, im with krys on this. say what MU and WHY you think it's wrong and ill debate it to the best of my ability. although tbh it would help if koolaid and esca joined more in the discussion since they are the 2 most know high level pits (koolaid being the highest level pit who's opinion i would hold in higher regard than my own for the most part) and gave details. but like i said point out what you think is wrong and WHY and ill talk (assuming you can actually talk sensibly)
 

_Kain_

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lmfao at sonic beating pit.

also ya, im with krys on this. say what MU and WHY you think it's wrong and ill debate it to the best of my ability. although tbh it would help if koolaid and esca joined more in the discussion since they are the 2 most know high level pits (koolaid being the highest level pit who's opinion i would hold in higher regard than my own for the most part) and gave details. but like i said point out what you think is wrong and WHY and ill talk (assuming you can actually talk sensibly)
Cept when counter char main says his char has this over pit, you counter argue that pit can do this, and so theorycraft bros begins and you guys fight for days but no one wins. This is why debating for this game is dumb, well the way most people in this thread do it.

Oh golly gee you guys are so smart
 

Krystedez

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I think sonic beats pit.

and to go back to my point about using videos to determine this kind of thing, theres only one high level pit vs sonic set recorded and sonic wins it. despite, imo, the pit player being of a higher calibur than the sonic player.
I never said you use videos purely for determining, you use player knowledge and frequency of matchup occurences, which can be taken into account for Japan. (if that's the subject you're trying to bring back up). Looking at how OFTEN 9B and Masashi or Masashi and Earth fight each other in bracket or how many videos there are of him can lead to a better conclusion than one video.

In any case, Sonic beats Pit? By how much? What does he do that makes it difficult for Pit? These are things you should express with back up.

Which video is it? When watching it, I'd be asking: "How can we analyse it? What did the Sonic do to make it better for him? What did the Pit do right and not just wrong?"

I'm not going to say OMG Sonic wins of course or OMG Pit wins you !@#$% whatchu talkin about, because in all honesty, it looks like a dead even matchup. Both characters suffer from extreme lack of kill potential. The thing Pit has on Sonic is having more than a couple of moves to use to unstale his others, but Sonic has the ground speed and keep-away/pure-punish game to avoid a lot of Pit's ****. I've never seen this matchup played . . . at all. Even sounded fair in the end and I think Espy can agree to it.

lmfao at sonic beating pit.

also ya, im with krys on this. say what MU and WHY you think it's wrong and ill debate it to the best of my ability. although tbh it would help if koolaid and esca joined more in the discussion since they are the 2 most know high level pits (koolaid being the highest level pit who's opinion i would hold in higher regard than my own for the most part) and gave details. but like i said point out what you think is wrong and WHY and ill talk (assuming you can actually talk sensibly)
You do what you want Maharba. :) I will say to all players not just Pits to put your pride aside and look for good discussion, not trouble. I wish Koolaid posted more but alas with a lot of high level players it's hard to get them to take the time to put any effort into discussion, busy with life or don't care either way.

Cept when counter char main says his char has this over pit, you counter argue that pit can do this, and so theorycraft bros begins and you guys fight for days but no one wins. This is why debating for this game is dumb, well the way most people in this thread do it.

Oh golly gee you guys are so smart
Kain shaddap :urg:, I hate theory craft and I think Kuro has already expressed his dislike for it too. I'm trying to understand WHY people say what they say, and then go from there. No one should honestly care about winning but care about exchanging knowledge. Winning is for high players like you to worry about in tournament :awesome:

Pit's dumb, let's talk about Captain Falcon now.

He has Falcon Punch, so he should be at least C tier. I mean, he can kill at like 50%!!!! Wow.
Captain Falcon is such an odd character, I never know if I should even try playing with him sometimes or not, he seems to help people get their consistency down though. He's just...not...reliable.
 

Chuee

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This for certain... also keep in mind pretty much every top MK has the lucario matchup down pretty well due to MK getting ***** if he doesn't. while like no one uses pit and any given top player probably lacks pit exp.
Japanese MKs have plenty of Pit experience...........and they do better than the US lucario's against MK lmao.

Lucario does well enough against MK lmao... compared to everyone else he's closer to the current +1s... the MKs even had the ratio at +1 and we had to debate it to a +2
I find it hard to see Lucario being closer to -1's when top level videos show him getting handled.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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c. falcon is like..... totally under rated guys. i mean come on, look at that justice knee. it's just like, so full of justice...... i feel overwhelmed by the justice of that knee.
 

da K.I.D.

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the only recorded instance I know of of pit vs sonic at a high level is Koolaid vs Wes.

pit seems like a character that would have more trouble than most keeping up with sonics mobility. on an even plane sonic can spin under arrow shot at him. and if sonic springs out of traps it doesnt seem likely that pit will be able to punish it most of the time aside from shooting an arrow at his landing. and for the speed that he puts them out there, arrows imo really dont do enough damage.

sonic can also fight for extended periods of time off stage so pits planking is simultaneous more dangerous and not as effective against him.

due the the fact that he has swords, pit still severely outprioritises sonic on a strict move against move basis. and has enough weight and recovery that hes not going to get gimped or drop stocks super easily.

but i just see sonic as generally harder to hit for pit compared to other characters, and easier for sonic to get in on generally so it seems like a plus one for him

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=koolaid+vs+wes&aq=f
 

Judo777

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the only recorded instance I know of of pit vs sonic at a high level is Koolaid vs Wes.

pit seems like a character that would have more trouble than most keeping up with sonics mobility. on an even plane sonic can spin under arrow shot at him. and if sonic springs out of traps it doesnt seem likely that pit will be able to punish it most of the time aside from shooting an arrow at his landing. and for the speed that he puts them out there, arrows imo really dont do enough damage.

sonic can also fight for extended periods of time off stage so pits planking is simultaneous more dangerous and not as effective against him.

due the the fact that he has swords, pit still severely outprioritises sonic on a strict move against move basis. and has enough weight and recovery that hes not going to get gimped or drop stocks super easily.

but i just see sonic as generally harder to hit for pit compared to other characters, and easier for sonic to get in on generally so it seems like a plus one for him

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=koolaid+vs+wes&aq=f
Why have I never heard of that guy before? That was some simply incredible stage control and use of spin shot. Spin shotting far offstage then springing and snapping the ledge at the end of dair was pretty cool.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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tbh i don't know the sonic MU but from what i would think slanted down arrows would stop his spindash approach.

also, even tho the vid is old, gotta say, that sonic is bossin (i <3 sonic. if they would have given him just one good kill move....)
 

Steam

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Japanese MKs have plenty of Pit experience...........and they do better than the US lucario's against MK lmao.


I find it hard to see Lucario being closer to -1's when top level videos show him getting handled.
Japan is japan. Also Japanese MKs really don't place like MK from what I've seen results wise. maybe japanese MKs aren't as good?

Lucario doesn't get absoultely handled. I mean he will lose a majority of the time because it is a bad matchup. But Lucario isn't completely invalidated by MK and doesn't always get elminated by MKs like certain other characters. You can ask pretty much any Lucario main or just about any MK main with exp. and they'll tell you it's very winnable. but if it's a top MK that knows the matchup well yes you're probably boned unless you're like the best lucario, That's how it is with 80% of the roster or more.
 

Kuro~

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Japan is japan. Also Japanese MKs really don't place like MK from what I've seen results wise. maybe japanese MKs aren't as good?

Lucario doesn't get absoultely handled. I mean he will lose a majority of the time because it is a bad matchup. But Lucario isn't completely invalidated by MK and doesn't always get elminated by MKs like certain other characters. You can ask pretty much any Lucario main or just about any MK main with exp. and they'll tell you it's very winnable. but if it's a top MK that knows the matchup well yes you're probably boned unless you're like thebest lucario, That's how it is with 80% of the roster or more.
Snake vs mk is a bad matchup but he still wins more than lucario...and snake is at least a -1. You just said it yourself..."but if it's a top MK that knows the matchup well yes you're probably boned unless you're like thebest lucario," matchups are always assuming the best so there you go.
 

Lenus Altair

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the only recorded instance I know of of pit vs sonic at a high level is Koolaid vs Wes.

pit seems like a character that would have more trouble than most keeping up with sonics mobility. on an even plane sonic can spin under arrow shot at him. and if sonic springs out of traps it doesnt seem likely that pit will be able to punish it most of the time aside from shooting an arrow at his landing. and for the speed that he puts them out there, arrows imo really dont do enough damage.

sonic can also fight for extended periods of time off stage so pits planking is simultaneous more dangerous and not as effective against him.

due the the fact that he has swords, pit still severely outprioritises sonic on a strict move against move basis. and has enough weight and recovery that hes not going to get gimped or drop stocks super easily.

but i just see sonic as generally harder to hit for pit compared to other characters, and easier for sonic to get in on generally so it seems like a plus one for him

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=koolaid+vs+wes&aq=f
Pretty neat set. I hadn't heard/looked at Wes in a while.

And since you're theorycrafting...

When you say Pit has more trouble then "most" I have trouble believing that. I think The majority of the cast has more issues with sonics mobility then Pit does, especially since WOI allows him to out manuever Sonic in the air.

Koolaid is arguably the best Pit in the States, but his playstyle is a little unconventional in how much he relies on CQC. Admittedly Koolaid did not do the best job at aiming his arrows for spindashing. I personally treat sonic as a short character and curve my arrows along the ground (minus mix ups). Unless sonic is within a Link Zair distance when you release the arrow, you can hit him and clank it (though Id need to learn more about sonics spindash to know whether its a garenteed clank or whatnot.)

Anyway I really do see the matchup as even with what experience I have. Honestly it seems that the matchup has been played so little there isn't much to base anything off. Tehre hasn't been a period of trying to adapt tactics against the other characters tools.
 

Steam

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Snake vs mk is a bad matchup but he still wins more than lucario...and snake is at least a -1. You just said it yourself..."but if it's a top MK that knows the matchup well yes you're probably boned unless you're like thebest lucario," matchups are always assuming the best so there you go.
I agree that it's a -2 lol...

I just find it funny that like... DK and Mario have the same ratio when it's so much worse for them... like lightyears worse.

and do pits beat any good MKs in the US ever? :/
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Snake does do better against MK than Luc does I could agree with that, Luc still does better than Pit does against MK.

If not then tell me why Pit does as well if not better than Luc, can you tell me outside of citing Japan. What are they doing in Japan that makes it not that bad?

:phone:
 

phi1ny3

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Japan is japan. Also Japanese MKs really don't place like MK from what I've seen results wise. maybe japanese MKs aren't as good?

Lucario doesn't get absoultely handled. I mean he will lose a majority of the time because it is a bad matchup. But Lucario isn't completely invalidated by MK and doesn't always get elminated by MKs like certain other characters. You can ask pretty much any Lucario main or just about any MK main with exp. and they'll tell you it's very winnable. but if it's a top MK that knows the matchup well yes you're probably boned unless you're like the best lucario, That's how it is with 80% of the roster or more.
It's pretty good unless MK plans on timing lucario out, which then gets ridiculous (and imo hard for any character in general rofl). Zucc0 actually took MtwoK to last hit on game 1, and then MtwoK said basically "Screw that, I'm going to time him out next round" rofl.

Jun3bug has several good MK wins under his belt (like At0msk, while not top 5, had a still really good MK at his prime), L33 Mart1n has taken out a couple as well, as has ks1zzle, and now that Tr3la's worked a bit on the MU finally and finally beat Doj0, I can see him starting to do work in the MU as well.

Imo it's about as hard/maybe a littler harder than Wario, DK, or ICs. All of them can do some dastardly stuff to MK with good reads, but they definitely have to be significantly better in skill/on their own turf in a stage, and have a couple of problems dealing with some specific MK tools/MK friendly scenarios.

Edit: this post is now 100% namesearch free
 

Chuee

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and do pits beat any good MKs in the US ever? :/
No, because
1. Top US Pits never play top MKs.
2. Top MKs are much better skillwise than top Pits.


If not then tell me why Pit does as well if not better than Luc, can you tell me outside of citing Japan. What are they doing in Japan that makes it not that bad?
Beating one of the best MKs in Japan...................
 

~ Gheb ~

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Japan is japan. Also Japanese MKs really don't place like MK from what I've seen results wise. maybe japanese MKs aren't as good?
That's why their ~5th best MK places 13th at Apex ... because they're not good -.-
Get rid of the ******** delusion that the US is the only thing that matters. The EU and especially the Japan metagames can be valuable sources for match-up information. You're self-righteous to a point where it's laughable.

:059:
 

Seagull Joe

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Why have I never heard of that guy before? That was some simply incredible stage control and use of spin shot. Spin shotting far offstage then springing and snapping the ledge at the end of dair was pretty cool.
Because you don't know melee pro's then. He was DA Wes the melee Samus dude. In brawl he used Sonic. I think he quit brawl (And maybe smash) altogether.
I actually think Wario is close to even vs. MK just like ICs.
LOOOOL. Ics are not close to even with Mk at all. Mk is their worst matchup most likely. Wario isn't even and stuff like this will just get Dmg to post how dumb that claim is. I agree with Dmg though.
 

Steam

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That's why their ~5th best MK places 13th at Apex ... because they're not good -.-
Get rid of the ******** delusion that the US is the only thing that matters. The EU and especially the Japan metagames can be valuable sources for match-up information. You're self-righteous to a point where it's laughable.

:059:
It is the only thing that matters when concerning our matchup chart... Because it only ecompasses our metagame... if you want to get the japanese in here to discuss matchups then sure...

@Chuee- Top MKs are much better than top Lucarios. that matchup is just even. >.>
 

Kuro~

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I'll post some stuff on mk in a little while ^_^. I think any info from another region must be taken with a grain of salt tbh.

I also agree sonic vs pit is even. Pit's dair is just way too good in this matchup. and his inf jab is pretty baus. And ftilt.
 

Chuee

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It is the only thing that matters when concerning our matchup chart... Because it only ecompasses our metagame... if you want to get the japanese in here to discuss matchups then sure...
except...............we're talking about the MU in general, not how NA would play the MU.
We're talking about x character vs y character. They play the same game as we do, so they're a valid source when talking about MUs.

@Chuee- Top MKs are much better than top Lucarios. that matchup is just even. >.>
Yep, which is exactly why Lucario's are placing really well in tourney.
 

~ Gheb ~

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Who did Rain actually beat with MK though? Like serious question cause I don't actually know, but I thought he was using Falco to take the majority of his wins.
I'm talking about Sweet Pea - Rain got 7th and I don't consider him an MK player.

:059:
 

Maharba the Mystic

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the only pit who is around japan status skill wise here in the US is koolaid, and he does just fine against all of pit's even MUs as and just owns in general. how come his accomplishments and skill is being overlooked in all of this. you guys keep saying, "pit's here don't place well in tourney" and you are correct to a degree because most pit players

1 don't get to go to a lot of tournies
2 aren't even close to koolaid in terms of skill

just that seeing as how koolaid is the only high (top 5 consistently) placing pit in america, i would think his accomplishments would be a good source of knowledge MU wise as well. and between him and japan, together they've demonstrated pit being successful against pretty much every top tier character like our MU chart in the pit boards demonstrates.

the real problem here is lack of representation character wise in the tournament scene. the only pit's who are going to tournaments even semi-consistently here in 2011 are me, kiraflax, kuro, esca, ptzr, luckay, and koolaid. that's it. 7 pit's are tournament active/semi active in north america, and only koolaid is a top level player. esca is close but will be retiring brawl after genesis, and the rest of us just started getting legitly competitive this year (kuro doing FL stuff, me in the texas circuit, luckay/pitz doin local stuff, and koolaid doing his thing out there with fatal bizcuit and malcom). oh ya fyre has gone to a couple tournies as well so i guess that means there are 8 competitive in the whole of the US atm.

we don't even have enough players to make a ratio with other tourney mains comparatively
 

Steam

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except...............we're talking about the MU in general, not how NA would play the MU.
We're talking about x character vs y character. They play the same game as we do, so they're a valid source when talking about MUs.


Yep, which is exactly why Lucario's are placing really well in tourney.
nope. Lucario's just an underrated character with bad mains. he should be doing better.

9B's already taken 4th with him in japan... he's obviously top 8

/pit main logic
 

Krystedez

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nope. Lucario's just an underrated character with bad mains. he should be doing better.

9B's already taken 4th with him in japan... he's obviously top 8

/pit main logic
Um, I don't think they (the Pits) say that the players are underrated as much as they are saying that Pits aren't getting out there enough.

Also, Maharba...

:pit:/:wario:

:c
 

Juushichi

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Maha even said that they're not at Koolaid's level.

Krys mentioned himself and I was going to mention Suyon as active Pit's, but he's not consistent with attendance in the slightest.

:phone:
 

xDD-Master

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LOOOOL. Ics are not close to even with Mk at all. Mk is their worst matchup most likely. Wario isn't even and stuff like this will just get Dmg to post how dumb that claim is. I agree with Dmg though.
It's not my problem if there arent any real good Warios/ICs. ;)
 

archer.

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Honestly I think ICs have a harder time against Snake and maybe Toon Link than they do MK.
 

Chuee

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nope. Lucario's just an underrated character with bad mains. he should be doing better.

9B's already taken 4th with him in japan... he's obviously top 8

/pit main logic
Uh no.....
Theres a difference between placing top 8 one time and consistently placing top 8.
 

Maharba the Mystic

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Krystedez, i was refering to the people who are solo pit mains or who said they are going solo pit for at least a while (kuro, esca, luckay). You said it yourself, :pit: AND :wario:

don't feel left out buddy, it's just that your co-maining. and there's nothing wrong with that, it's just you don't fit into the solo pit category atm :)

edit:
damn, i haven't seen that vid for a while. forgot how beast ramen was until he fell off of the face of the brawl universe....
 
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