Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Max Ketchum]

dat conditioning

 

[Matador]

Also, Mario sucks.

So does an offstage dair at 41%...
!!!

 

[NickRiddle]

So does an offstage dair at 41%...
!!!

Not for the opponent.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The thing about Snake is....

he just... doesn't.. DIE!.. and then he gets the clutch utilt on you

This is universal

this is how i lost every single match that I played in bracket at pound.
*supersadface*

Nick, you must fight my Mario next time we see each other!

People aren't ready bro.

can mario cape down smash?

 

[Spelt]

he takes liek last too :0

Wrong. I place worse than last.

You forgot the part where you're also pretty bad at this game, except the difference is you make excuses and I except it.

Exhibit ...

 

[Nefarious B]

@ KID nope can't cape or reflect dsmash

 

[Pierce7d]

False.

Dsmash is a projectile and hence it can be reflected by all reflectors in the game.

However, Dsmash doesn't travel. It's hitbox simply appears in that location. Thus, when Dsmash is reflected, it still doesn't hit ZSS. For ZSS to get hit by her own Dsmash, something would need to hit her into the hitbox as it's getting reflected. I've never seen this happen. However, Mario would be protected from Dsmash while using his SideB. Additionally, he will still turn ZSS around, so it's not at all useless to cape, especially since Dsmash is often used as a landing trap.

 

[Seagull Joe]

False.

Dsmash is a projectile and hence it can be reflected by all reflectors in the game.

However, Dsmash doesn't travel. It's hitbox simply appears in that location. Thus, when Dsmash is reflected, it still doesn't hit ZSS. For ZSS to get hit by her own Dsmash, something would need to hit her into the hitbox as it's getting reflected. I've never seen this happen. However, Mario would be protected from Dsmash while using his SideB. Additionally, he will still turn ZSS around, so it's not at all useless to cape, especially since Dsmash is often used as a landing trap.

So, if Zss starts a Dsmash, then I can hold shine as Wolf and it won't hurt me?

 

[Matador]

Pierce,

Don't Cape Stall against the D-smash. While Ness, G&W, and Lucas can absorb it, your Cape does not reflect it. It's the only hitbox in the game with that precise set of properties.
.

You're gonna have to take that up with the other guru of random smash knowledge.

All I personally know for certain is that you can cape ZSS during Dsmash and she'll simply do it in the other direction.

 

[Pierce7d]

Odd, since other reflectors work in the fashion I have just described. However, I haven't tested Mario's Cape, as I've never really had opportunity to play the MU. Since A2 plays Mario more often than I do, it's more likely that he's actually encountered the situation, and is then more likely to be accurate than I.

 

[Nefarious B]

You can't reflect dsmash lol, you get hit right out of the reflector. Why would you say a main of the character is flat out wrong if you haven't tested yourself?

Cape will turn ZSS around, although I'd assume that since dsmash outdisjoints cape if she spaces to tip you will get hit out of the cape for not turning her

Dsmash will get absorbed by ness/lucas/gaw

Spacey reflectors get ***** (unless you invinc through it obviously). I'm actually not sure about Pit's though now that I think about it

 

[Matador]

He only said KiD was wrong, and he mains Sonic. The quote I posted is from a thread on the Mario boards.

I would think that if you hit Pit's mirror shield with Dsmash, she'd just turn around.

 

[Pierce7d]

I am relatively sure that I've seen Dsmash reflected before. Hmm . . .

 

[John12346]

[collapse="just the ranking"]

[/collapse]I'll split this off into its own thread if warranted, and, when there, compare the tops/mids/bottoms to each other individually

This is really good info, but just for the sake of statistics, what exactly would the correct interpretation of this data be?

 

[Browny]

A few notes: To calculate each character's weighting, I grabbed Ripple's character popularity numbers, got the square root of all of them, and expressed them as a percentage of the sum of the square roots. I then went to the matchup chart and got the square root of the rating (taking into account negatives and whatnot) and multiplied each result by the opponent's weight.

For example, the ICs are -1 against MK, who has a weighting of sqrt(497)/286.3922*100% = ~7.784%, so they lose 7.78 or so points for that. On the other hand, they are +3 against Kirby, whose weighting of sqrt(80)/286.3922*100% = ~3.123% is multiplied by sqrt(3) to give the ICs about 5.41 points.

The point totals are then summed up and dividied by the weights that have been applied to the matchups (ie the weight of every character except oneself, because the ditto isnt counted) to get a final total.

Why did you square root the numbers... twice.

That merely downplays the significance of the more popular characters. Why are you making the characters matchups vs top tiers have less of an effect, while buffering their matchup vs low tiers. It completely goes against the point of what youre trying to do. Doing it twice merely exacerbates this.

 

[moomoomamoo]

The Matchup Chart looks pretty good for a reference. My only concern is that from time to time between all the matches my friends and I have, it'd be a lot easier to just ctrl+f the character's name when trying to look up a certain character apposed to searching by picture. It might help to add the text name of the character for each section in the individual character match ups. Personally I've already done this on my computer, and it makes things a lot faster to have to find.

 

[Jimmyfosho]

Most if not all character boards have a thread about this matchup chart. You should be able to find something like that there

 

[Fuujin]

I didn't say we could go "lol bair." We can't do that vs anyone anymore (although bair is still a fantastic move).

It seems you've never acquainted yourself with Zelda, I'll introduce you two.

Edit:

HAVE YOU EVER HAD TO GO 4 WHOLE DAYS WITHOUT EATING BECAUSE YOU SPENT YOUR MONEY HELPING YOUR FRIENDS BETTER THEMSELVES?!

Wait you give druggies money...o_0?

 

[Juushichi]

God, Fuujin is awesome.

I need to play some good ZSS's because I really don't think it's that bad for Mario. Confirming that caping ZS's dsmash turns her around. I seem to remember caping it when the hitbox was out (and not Zamus herself) and still turning her around, but like. Cape's not that great anyway.

 

[MK26]

This is really good info, but just for the sake of statistics, what exactly would the correct interpretation of this data be?

I'd think that the correct interpretation is that characters that move up from the bbr list to my list have stronger matchups against the top tiers than theyre given credit for, while the ones that move down have worse matchups

Why did you square root the numbers... twice.

That merely downplays the significance of the more popular characters. Why are you making the characters matchups vs top tiers have less of an effect, while buffering their matchup vs low tiers. It completely goes against the point of what youre trying to do. Doing it twice merely exacerbates this.

On the contrary, good sir. The first square root is done so that characters aren't made or broken by their matchup with MK (which sorta happens irl but thats beside the point :/). For instance, going back to my example, instead of losing almost 8 points for their matchup against MK, the Cllimbers will lose around 20. They end with a final score of 0.12, which would be 0.31 (at 5th, above Snake) given an even matchup against MK. Beyond MK at 1.09, the next highest character on the list is Falco at 0.41 due to his going even against everyone that matters. Marth is third, followed by Diddy, Snake, Pikachu (who also apparently goes even with MK), Wario, ICs, and Olimar. Once you hit characters that go -2 against him, nobody has a positive number...most lose more against him than they gain in all their positive matchups combined. It's quickly turning into a list of 'who does best against MK', where the characters that move up on the list are the ones that don't do as bad against MK as the characters beside them. See: Falco above Marth, Diddy jumping 4 spots, Fox going from 0.38 behind Peach to 0.01 behind, Lucario dropping like a brick...though that last one's more a case of getting wrecked by the rest of high tier...

On second thought, that isn't that bad lol
Thanks for pointing that out

However, rooting the popularity numbers but not rooting the matchup numbers is a no-go. Going back to my example, the ICs would still lose 7.78 points for their match against Kirby, but they'd gain almost 10 for +3'ing Kirby. Does that make sense? This does basically the opposite of rooting the popularity numbers, making sure that the mid tier guys with +4’s against characters that don't matter (I’m looking at you, DK vs. Lucas) don't skew stuff.

Rooting neither? Quite literally a list in order of how well each character does against MK, with only a little variance at the top (Marth is still 3rd behind Falco, and 4/5/6 are Snake/Pika/Diddy; ZSS jumps thanks to her -1 vs. MK; the ICs get a boost due to +2'ing and +3'ing random mid tiers, which probably shouldn't happen; assorted mid tiers get assorted boosts for random +4's against lows)...yet the bottom tiers are still mostly unchanged.

 

[Steam]

I still think most of MK's matchups are highly sugarcoated on this chart... so any weighted chart is kinda lol at this point IMO.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

Edit:

Wait you give druggies money...o_0?

**** no. as if i were that dumb.

i put them into rehab, helped with bills, and got them back on their feet.

and out of that whole message, that was what you got? you're also probably some sheltered kid who doesn't know anything outside your own, happy, ignorant little life. like i told dumb **** earlier, don't joke about this ****.

 

[Orion*]

What can mario do to get inside of game and watch? Serious question. Fireballs get bucketed, and we can effectively sit in our shield and just nair when we see you get close or upB. The reason this isn't a -4 match-up is because you have good combos/set-ups once you get inside, and your upB is amazing.

I really question if you know what youre talking about sometimes...

he's ranked 9th in the best region in the US.

NJ/NY pride

lolololol. that's siggable.

I know....

So does an offstage dair at 41%...
!!!

Wow really lol, that was so mean xD

dat conditioning

You can't condition someone who's not thinking

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The only think dsmash is affected by are things that absorb. It doesn't get reflected. If you hit Pit's shield, you get turned around I guess.

If you hit Mario with bair as he capes you, he still gets hit LOL

 

[Matador]

The only think dsmash is affected by are things that absorb. It doesn't get reflected. If you hit Pit's shield, you get turned around I guess.

If you hit Mario with bair as he capes you, he still gets hit LOL

Yeah, that happens with quite a few moves.

The trade is RARELY in our favor either.

 

[NickRiddle]

False.

Dsmash is a projectile and hence it can be reflected by all reflectors in the game.

However, Dsmash doesn't travel. It's hitbox simply appears in that location. Thus, when Dsmash is reflected, it still doesn't hit ZSS. For ZSS to get hit by her own Dsmash, something would need to hit her into the hitbox as it's getting reflected. I've never seen this happen. However, Mario would be protected from Dsmash while using his SideB. Additionally, he will still turn ZSS around, so it's not at all useless to cape, especially since Dsmash is often used as a landing trap.

False!

ZSS's d-smash is considered an energy-based attack, so you can heal/bucket it.
It is not a projectile, or Falco/Fox/Wolf wouldn't even think about worrying about the d-smash chain.

Also, ZSS's d-smash hitbox IS in fact touching her, so she WOULD ALWAYS get stunned.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

false.

Dsmash is a projectile and hence it can be reflected by all reflectors in the game.

However, dsmash doesn't travel. It's hitbox simply appears in that location. Thus, when dsmash is reflected, it still doesn't hit zss. For zss to get hit by her own dsmash, something would need to hit her into the hitbox as it's getting reflected. I've never seen this happen. However, mario would be protected from dsmash while using his sideb. Additionally, he will still turn zss around, so it's not at all useless to cape, especially since dsmash is often used as a landing trap.

loooooooooool

 

[Alphicans]

Orion I actually said nothing specific to the mario match-up... LOL. We do that vs everyone =D (except outrange with every move). But yeah I am not sure on everything mario has, so tell me if mario has any moves that can beat nair.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

mario's and luigi's nair. i just wanna say how awesome they are. im not saying anything about whether they pertain to watever match up. im just randomly advocating how amazing these moves are. fast, priority out the ***. so good, just so good.

this has been mystic's random move advocation post of the day. at least in this thread

 

[Steam]

if only they had an amazing GTFI move instead of an amazing GTFO move

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

or at least give them any good air mobility or any good ground mobility. if they had the speed to get in they wouldn't need a gtfi move. too bad they don't have any of the above

 

[Matador]

Orion I actually said nothing specific to the mario match-up... LOL. We do that vs everyone =D (except outrange with every move). But yeah I am not sure on everything mario has, so tell me if mario has any moves that can beat nair.

Um...

Shield?

See, this is why this kinda thing doesn't work. That's why Marth beats/goes even with practically the whole cast but results don't reflect it.

Characters with greater priority rule match-up discussion because their side acts like they're constantly throwing this move out fully spaced and unpunishably.

 

[Pierce7d]

False!

ZSS's d-smash is considered an energy-based attack, so you can heal/bucket it.
It is not a projectile, or Falco/Fox/Wolf wouldn't even think about worrying about the d-smash chain.

Also, ZSS's d-smash hitbox IS in fact touching her, so she WOULD ALWAYS get stunned.

Hmnm, I seem to remember in my studies that ZSS doesn't suffer any shield hitlag from Dsmash at all (one of the reasons the move is so safe), which would define Dsmash as a projectile. Apparently though, my studies have failed me in this regard, so I apologize for anyone I've mislead.

TIME TO GO DO MORE RESEARCH!!

 

[Deleted member]

Hmnm, I seem to remember in my studies that ZSS doesn't suffer any shield hitlag from Dsmash at all (one of the reasons the move is so safe), which would define Dsmash as a projectile. Apparently though, my studies have failed me in this regard, so I apologize for anyone I've mislead.

TIME TO GO DO MORE RESEARCH!!

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Hmnm, I seem to remember in my studies that ZSS doesn't suffer any shield hitlag from Dsmash at all (one of the reasons the move is so safe), which would define Dsmash as a projectile. Apparently though, my studies have failed me in this regard, so I apologize for anyone I've mislead.

TIME TO GO DO MORE RESEARCH!!

Dsmash is a projectile with no trajectory or velocity, which means it doesn't move, which means multiplying the speed or changing the angle (i.e. reflecting) sends it exactly nowhere. Since damage/kb from a move is calculated after the move is reflected, characters with reflectors aren't hit by moves they reflect. Since ZSS' dsmash is never really reflected to begin with (because the multipliers that change its' direction don't apply, 0xN=0 etc) the opponent is still hit by the attack.

The confusing thing for people is that ZSS' hitbubbles for dsmash actually do touch her(and touch behind her as well) but don't damage or stun her. I would guess this is because projectiles can't damage the person who creates them unless the angle/velocity is changed mid-launch, or unless they create another article on their own (Snake's nades exploding, etc).

 

[Lenus Altair]

Question about Pit Match Ups.

It's my understanding that the Olimars actually pushed for it to be even against Pit, however how did the wolfs/foxes argue? Did they see it as our advantage or did Pits push for the +1?

 

[phi1ny3]

Fun fact having to do with the subject of "reflectors":

ROB's sideB is the only reflector that "reflects" falco's reflector. Try it out, it's so weird lol.

 

[stingers]

that sounds...cool.does it send it behind him or something?

 

[Praxis]

Wolf is 0 vs ICs / Pit and +1 / +2 vs GW / ROB.

The rest looks solid.

Wolf / Peach is +1 or +2 for Wolf too.

No.

10noes

 

[da K.I.D.]

yea... that doesnt help, prax mah boi.