Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Dark.Pch]

I agree Peach probably isn't a good solo main, she is a really nice secondary to take care of bad MUs though. She has a lot of random kryptonite match-ups at the top end, but a lot of important MUs like MK and Snake she has problems.

She does not have much of a problem with snake. The only high tier characters that are a real Pain is meta knght and Marth

 

[Nefarious B]

Peach seems too difficult to learn to be a serious secondary IMO. Even ignoring the obvious second MK for all your bad matchups luullll there are better secondaries against Oli Diddy and Wario

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach actually beats those three characters along with IC.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yeah, that's what he was saying, he just meant that there are better characters to use as secondaries to handle those characters.

 

[Poltergust]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsLeP6IkvmY

*waits to hear some excuses on what the diddy was doing wrong in terms of me winning and this not being legit*

I just want to point out that, even though those matches were enjoyable to watch, they wouldn't stand too well on their own. For example, I beat Lie, Anti, and Nicole in $5 MMs. Does that mean Yoshi has an advantage over Diddy, MK, and Peach? Of course not (actually, I would argue for Peach vs. Yoshi being even like I did during this project, but that's a topic for another day).

Match-ups do not solely come down to who beats who how many times. They are formed through your collective experience in the match-up; you could win a -2 match-up or lose a +1 match-up many times, but judgment on the match-up may remained unchanged because your experience with the match-up solidifies those numbers more and more.

 

[John12346]

I wouldn't necessarily say Peach beats ICs, simply because I could imagine desync Blizzards screwing her up at times

But yeah, I also can't realistically see ICs ever actually getting a grab

Even?

 

[BSP]

I am all for thinking peach and luigi beat diddy, but this isn't particularly convincing.

Luigi > Diddy is still beyond me, even if it's slight. I know his sliding lets him avoid most banana combos and stuff, but he can still get camped extremely hard since he slides so far back when he does get hit.

Can anyone explain that MU?

 

[Dark.Pch]

People have always thought Diddy wins cause of this and that. All these options. Etc. This was clearly to show what Peach is able to do about it and pinn Diddy down.

Now I am not taking this too seriously cause I know if I was to MM Gness or ADHD and beat them, I would hear the same thing as I do now. All cause of this image of Peach people just don't wanna let go for years.

Thats why now I don't even debate to much now when it comes to this character. I just let people win them easy. The damage is to much for me to fix vs 100 people.

John- And this is what I am talking about. Typical talk like this. My turnips go through the blizzard so I can end all that easy. IC can't even camp Peach.

As for grabs It is extremme hard for them to grab Peach. Her pressure and spacing screw all that up. Same time it is easy for her to seperate them. Peach beats them.

 

[Poltergust]

No, no, you misunderstand. I'm not taking any sides here (because what do I know about Diddy or Peach?). All I'm saying is that presenting a match and using that as evidence to prove how a certain match-up goes is not necessarily the best way to determine the match-up. That's all.

 

[Dark.Pch]

No, no, you misunderstand. I'm not taking any sides here (because what do I know about Diddy or Peach?). All I'm saying is that presenting a match and using that as evidence to prove how a certain match-up goes is not necessarily the best way to determine the match-up. That's all.

I know that. I wanted to give a clear insite on how that match up goes. This "well Diddy has nanners and can shoot her out the air and nanar game on the ground" Stuff is getting old.

 

[Chuee]

I know that. I wanted to give a clear insite on how that match up goes. This "well Diddy has nanners and can shoot her out the air and nanar game on the ground" Stuff is getting old.

Old like the 'peach can float over naners!'?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Old like the 'peach can float over naners!'?

1. nobody said that.

2. let me illustrate polts point.
personally, I believe sonic goes either +1 or +2 with ike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D82Tqlhak5s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1frGAEbJdfQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLnOLSA-8_o

but to illustrate darks point.

personally between the two, I believe lie is a better player as a whole then dark is, yet he still lost that match. and the end of the second game in that mm demonstrate how much peach can harass diddy offstage.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

luigi does not beat diddy but he goes even with him or slightly diddy's favor. while he can get camped luigi straight up outprioritizes diddy in cqc. he deals more damage and kills far earlier. he owns the air with that nair and bair of his not to mention he has a solid recovery here. and i forgot to say because most of diddy's hitboxes aren't really to disjointed this lets weegee actually get to use that priority. his disadvantages are already known so im not gonna go into detail there.

 

[DeLux]

lol @ desync blizzard beating peach

bad theory craft


Turnips say no.

 

[Steam]

*nods*

Fix MK's MUs please. Like, move all of the 0s to -1s, and then start going back through the other MUs. Wouldn't surprise me if half of them need to be adjusted to be more in MK's favor. I suspect part of the problem comes from a bunch of characters desperately hoping to be an MK neutral/MK counter. So what you have a guy who does well against MKs? That doesn't sudden change the MU.

the MK boards themselves are also making them kinda sugarcoated.

like the D3s wanted their matchup to be -3, but the MKs pushed for only -2.

I remember with luc/MK the MKs had it as only -1 but the lucs insisted on -2

 

[kackamee]

lol @ desync blizzard beating peach

bad theory craft


Turnips say no.

^This, but IC's are even with Peach. I actually think they should be +1 vs. her. It's exceptionally hard to get good setups on her. But she's very easy to poke and well spaced moves beat most of the things she throws out at you.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lol @ the mk boards.

'we dont **** you THAT badly...'

'uhhh.... if you knew anything about our character, you would clearly **** us every match.'

maybe if the mks go into every match blinding throwing out whatever move feels good at the time, the ratios wouldnt be that bad. but I know im in the situation that many non-mk mains are in.

I can beat very good mks, but then i get scraped by scrubby mks that are terrible at the matchup but simply know how to beat my character

 

[Dark.Pch]

^This, but IC's are even with Peach. I actually think they should be +1 vs. her. It's exceptionally hard to get good setups on her. But she's very easy to poke and well spaced moves beat most of the things she throws out at you.

Like what?

 

[DMG]

Lol @ the mk boards.

'we dont **** you THAT badly...'

'uhhh.... if you knew anything about our character, you would clearly **** us every match.'

maybe if the mks go into every match blinding throwing out whatever move feels good at the time, the ratios wouldnt be that bad. but I know im in the situation that many non-mk mains are in.

I can beat very good mks, but then i get scraped by scrubby mks that are terrible at the matchup but simply know how to beat my character

It's like that for a lot of matchups for different characters besides MK. Being a good player doesn't guarantee that you know the matchup better than someone else, and I know that comes into play quite often in tournament.

 

[Seagull Joe]

People have always thought Diddy wins cause of this and that. All these options. Etc. This was clearly to show what Peach is able to do about it and pinn Diddy down.

Now I am not taking this too seriously cause I know if I was to MM Gness or ADHD and beat them, I would hear the same thing as I do now. All cause of this image of Peach people just don't wanna let go for years.

Thats why now I don't even debate to much now when it comes to this character. I just let people win them easy. The damage is to much for me to fix vs 100 people.

John- And this is what I am talking about. Typical talk like this. My turnips go through the blizzard so I can end all that easy. IC can't even camp Peach.

As for grabs It is extreme hard for them to grab Peach. Her pressure and spacing screw all that up. Same time it is easy for her to separate them. Peach beats them.

I think Peach doesn't lose to Ics, but she doesn't beat them. Wolf is the same way in this regard vs Ics. He can laser blizzard wall and his bair is the safest move in the game when spaced on shield. Usmash pushes us out of grab range too. There aren't enough Wolf mains to contest that the matchup is even compared to Ics mains, but I know it's even and so does a few others. I'll let the people speak for themselves when I play said Ice climbers.

the MK boards themselves are also making them kinda sugarcoated.

like the D3s wanted their matchup to be -3, but the MKs pushed for only -2.

I remember with luc/MK the MKs had it as only -1 but the lucs insisted on -2

I don't post much on the Mk boards because I always walk in and they say ridiculous things. I went in once and some Mk posted that Fox beats Mk @___@....

It's like that for a lot of matchups for different characters besides MK. Being a good player doesn't guarantee that you know the matchup better than someone else, and I know that comes into play quite often in tournament.

Matchup inexperience happens a lot vs characters people regularly don't play against.

 

[Pierce7d]

I can beat very good mks, but then i get scraped by scrubby mks that are know the matchup and simply know how to beat my character

Is this what you meant to say?

 

[da K.I.D.]

I can beat very good mks, but then i get scraped by mks that are terrible, but simply know how to beat my character

this is more accurate, i wasnt paying attention when i typed it out the first time.

 

[etecoon]

Peach, Tink, D3 and DK are the ones that stick out the most to me.

don't think I agree about D3, +2 seems about right to me, but I have to emphatically agree on DK. donkey kong should not be viable in a game where meta knight is the most popular character

I do think there's a lot of inaccuracy but I think it's just that, inaccuracy. I don't think there's some conspiracy by MK's to make his MU's look worse than they are, some of them I think are too generous with the advantage(lucario, sonic, and sheik being the biggest standouts to me).

 

[Orion*]

Orion I actually said nothing specific to the mario match-up... LOL. We do that vs everyone =D

Continue to further my point

Oh. ****.


Charizard vs Diddy +2

LOOOOL

i love you sometimes

I think you agree with me.... a lot of those matchups are actually worse than they are on the chart...

I mean like half of the -1s should probably be -2s. and Half of the -2s should be -3s.

Idk... I think mk is gay, but people always list the wrong reasons, half of the problems i see people complain about with mk can be fixed via some practice and Thinking.

Let's keep the flaming to a minimum, guys.

Yes mod.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsLeP6IkvmY

*waits to hear some excuses on what the diddy was doing wrong in terms of me winning and this not being legit*

wut....

Hey Dark Peach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LH9DS3Hp9TA
Fox beats MK

I would believe this first because of the level of the players involved :/

the MK boards themselves are also making them kinda sugarcoated.

like the D3s wanted their matchup to be -3, but the MKs pushed for only -2.

I remember with luc/MK the MKs had it as only -1 but the lucs insisted on -2

I wanted +2 for mk vs lucario but I really dont see how D3 is -3.... coney like 3 stocked m2k son and he used to main d3. That doesnt happen in a +3 mu :/

I think inui explains this mu very well actually...
"Neither character can really approach each other its just mk has an easier time getting the lead back than ddd does"

Lol @ the mk boards.

'we dont **** you THAT badly...'

'uhhh.... if you knew anything about our character, you would clearly **** us every match.'

maybe if the mks go into every match blinding throwing out whatever move feels good at the time, the ratios wouldnt be that bad. but I know im in the situation that many non-mk mains are in.

I can beat very good mks, but then i get scraped by scrubby mks that are terrible at the matchup but simply know how to beat my character

That just tells me that you arent thinking...

or that sonic is awful

 

[Steam]

Lucario is right at a -2. Lucario can compete normally but MK auto wins on his CP... so yeah...

if you use a different character for MKs CP it's a -1... but if you're all lucario, -2

 

[Scatz]

Why would you include character CPing in a character specific matchup? That's taking out the fact your character (or others for that matter) get the stick up the butt when MK gets to CP.

 

[Steam]

Why would you include character CPing in a character specific matchup? That's taking out the fact your character (or others for that matter) get the stick up the butt when MK gets to CP.

I wasn't. I'm saying it's a -2 because he just gets ***** on CPs and because of this a lot of Lucs change characters on MKs CP.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

the MK boards themselves are also making them kinda sugarcoated.

like the D3s wanted their matchup to be -3, but the MKs pushed for only -2.

I remember with luc/MK the MKs had it as only -1 but the lucs insisted on -2

Somebody needs to backhand them and tell them to face the fact that their character is very much borderline bannable, and not "just slightly better than he should be".

MK vs D3 SHOULD be -3. MK vs Lucario SHOULD be -2. MK vs Mario SHOULD be -3. If those on the MK panel can't accept these facts, throw them out and get new guys who actually understand these things and have a pair of balls. Stop sugarcoating things, face reality already: nobody goes even with MK. MK destroys a lot of characters, even with an LGL in place. Just because the best MK occasionally falls flat on his face or struggles with a particular MU doesn't suddenly mean it's neutral.

 

[Meru.]

mk vs d3 should be d3.

@_@

 

[Nidtendofreak]

D is the new - dude.

 

[John12346]

Somebody needs to backhand them and tell them to face the fact that their character is very much borderline bannable, and not "just slightly better than he should be".

MK vs D3 SHOULD be D3. MK vs Lucario SHOULD be -2. MK vs Mario SHOULD be -3. If those on the MK panel can't accept these facts, throw them out and get new guys who actually understand these things and have a pair of balls. Stop sugarcoating things, face reality already: nobody goes even with MK. MK destroys a lot of characters, even with an LGL in place. Just because the best MK occasionally falls flat on his face or struggles with a particular MU doesn't suddenly mean it's neutral.

For the sake of making sure everyone sees Nidtendo's words on this page.

Anyway, Nidtendofreak hit it spot on. MK's MU spread is way too low as it is right now. Those zeros could possibly exist if FD was the only legal stage, AND there was a LGL in place, but that's it.

This is my take on MK's matchup spread:


1:
2:
3:
4:

 

[Tagxy]

*insert blanket statement about MK's MU's because I obviously know all these characters so well.*

Goes for the above post as well and similar such posts. And its always from non MK mains

 

[Steam]

I'd honestly say MK has more +3s than that lol

 

[John12346]

@ Tagxy

We do watch Youpoop, Livestreams, and gameplay in person you know...

 

[Smoom77]

ICs beat Yoshi btw.

-leaves-

 

[Tagxy]

Alright, but its insulting to anyone who actually spends significant time and effort learning their characters MU's. Its like hearing some ROB main talk about how Olimar should destroy Lucario because olimar kills at 80%, without having actually used either Olimar or Lucario extensively, especially without decent (MU specific) evidence. Pretty sure theres a scene in Good Will Hunting about this...

Anyways if you are going to make such statements about MU's the least that can be done is to take them one at a time rather then make the blanket examples I mentioned.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Goes for the above post as well and similar such posts. And its always from non MK mains

*looks at MK's results*

Ya know, for a guy who supposedly has three neutral MUs, he's dominating waaaaaaaay too much for that to make any amount of sense. If he had three neutral MUs, he wouldn't be able to win that much.

I do think several characters would be the equivalent of ".5" on this scale, but seeing as that doesn't exist it's gotta be "1". And some of the other numbers are just plain old silly, like the points I listed in my previous post.

And in my defense: I have tinkered around with basically every character for a while, and used to read basically every character board's stuff. While I don't have time for that any more, and I'm obviously not the most knowledgeable person about every character ever, I'm not clueless either.

 

[John12346]

Alright, but its insulting to anyone who actually spends significant time and effort learning their characters MU's. Its like hearing some ROB main talk about how Olimar should destroy Lucario because olimar kills at 80%, without having actually used either Olimar or Lucario extensively. Pretty sure theres a scene in Good Will Hunting about this...

Anyways if you are going to make such statements about MU's the least that can be done is to take them one at a time rather then make the blanket examples I mentioned.

Well, it might be insulting, but if it's actually true, why not mention them? I understand blanket examples aren't a good thing, but...

In any case, I'm pretty sure we've all seen enough MK vs Falco/Diddy/Pikachu matches to at least agree those are not 0 MUs. We've all seen enough MK vs most of the upper tier on Youtube and the like to at least know he has the tools to make all three of those alleged 0s into +1s, at the very least.

 

[-Mars-]

For the sake of making sure everyone sees Nidtendo's words on this page.

Anyway, Nidtendofreak hit it spot on. MK's MU spread is way too low as it is right now. Those zeros could possibly exist if FD was the only legal stage, AND there was a LGL in place, but that's it.

This is my take on MK's matchup spread:


1:
2:
3:
4:

No way does Sheik have a worse MU with MK than Peach.

In fact most of that is kinda making me do a double-take.

 

[John12346]

Yeah, I kinda botched up the +2 and +3 now that I'm looking at it.

Let's just focus on the main point I'm trying to make, about the no 0s business. Ignore this, and reply to my previous post, k?