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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

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Tagxy

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Well, it might be insulting, but if it's actually true, why not mention them? I understand blanket examples aren't a good thing, but...

In any case, I'm pretty sure we've all seen enough MK vs Falco/Diddy/Pikachu matches to at least agree those are not 0 MUs. We've all seen enough MK vs most of the upper tier on Youtube and the like to at least know he has the tools to make all three of those alleged 0s into +1s, at the very least.
And how would you know it's true? Watching videos doesnt always do a MU justice, it can depend on the quality of the video, knowing what to look for in general and as part of the MU, etc. Do you assume to know more then the people who put the MU together? Not to say that it can't be wrong, but it requires sufficient evidence(I edited my previous post to add that). It certainly requires more then just saying "from what we've seen" because from what Ive seen I dont really have a problem with those 3 being even, and would probably add Fox and Olimar (assuming LGLs). Thats why they have to be debated individually.

and @ niddo I was more concerned with the constant blanket statements, I shouldnt have singled you out since lots of people do it. Im not above saying a characters MUs in general are inflated or deflated. I've certainly harped about Marths inflated numbers. But I also think you should still have to look at MUs individually and focus more on the ones you know well/have evidence for.
 

Nidtendofreak

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@ Xdeath: Sonic is plausible for being -2. X didn't seem to have much trouble with them after all at MLG. :laugh: Peach and Sheik I would switch around though, along with Mario and Shelda.

@ Tag: I don't think is the topic to get into up to 35 MU discussions, particularly not at once. >_>
 

John12346

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@ Xdeath
Yeah, I kinda botched up the +2 and +3 now that I'm looking at it.
-___ -;

And Tagxy, how would you recommend we collect this kind of information on true MU values? Check the character specific boards? The three have the matchups listed as

Pikachu vs MK: 43:57
Falco vs MK: 40:60 to 45:55 (outdated)
Diddy vs MK: 45:55

And most of the discussion revolves around the assumption the stage played on is flat.

If you don't want to use that, then...

Is there any other viable way of collecting matchup numbers?

Edit: I actually have an idea. What if we opened a thread in Metagame Data and Ruleset Discussion, and we devoted a week or two to discussing each character's matchup against MK? That actually sounds legit, imo
 

da K.I.D.

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also, john numbers lives in the ny/nj area, so any tourney he goes to is pretty much guaranteed to be chock full of mks.

i think he might know a thing or 2 about the character.
 

Exdeath

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I personally think that Pikachu is closer to being even with Meta Knight than Diddy, if only because Pikachu's kill set-ups/damage racking can't be denied on-stage. Diddy/Pikachu lack proper/reliable killing tools when they are taken off-stage, but Diddy can also be deprived of bananas while he's on-stage due to pressure. Pikachu's Usmash OoS punishes improper spacing/walking grabs as a kill move on reaction/read. Diddy requires horrible spacing and a read or just a hard read.
 

Tagxy

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@niddo It might be annoying but its way better then generalizations. Though maybe not all at once, and maybe not here.

John I think its impossible to get a true MU value since not everyone will agree, but at least something close and some good discussion would be nice. That idea sounds good, but I wouldnt limit it to just MK. Smash 64 did something similar

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241670

The hardest thing would be getting quality participation I think.
 

Spelt

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i swear spelt. you've got to be like what, 12? only a kid would post such stupid ****.
loooool.
I should sig this.

I personally think that Pikachu is closer to being even with Meta Knight than Diddy, if only because Pikachu's kill set-ups/damage racking can't be denied on-stage. Diddy/Pikachu lack proper/reliable killing tools when they are taken off-stage, but Diddy can also be deprived of bananas while he's on-stage due to pressure. Pikachu's Usmash OoS punishes improper spacing/walking grabs as a kill move on reaction/read. Diddy requires horrible spacing and a read or just a hard read.
pikachu's nair and diddy's fair both kill people fairly well off stage.
 

John12346

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Well, if we do what Smash 64 is doing, then we're already doing that in this thread.

Maybe we can open up a thread, and focus on one whole character at a time, then?

Like, keep it open for 1 or 2 weeks so everyone can give their votes on how they believe MK does against the rest of the cast. Then we could open up a similar discussion for Snake on all characters except MK(since it was discussed already), then Diddy vs everyone except Snake and MK, and so on and so forth.
 

Exdeath

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loooool.
I should sig this.



pikachu's nair and diddy's fair both kill people fairly well off stage.
Depending on the stage, neither move will kill Meta Knight until very high percents (~170+). Diddy's Uair will kill better than Fair if it isn't DIed properly in that situation.

Well, if we do what Smash 64 is doing, then we're already doing that in this thread.

Maybe we can open up a thread, and focus on one whole character at a time, then?

Like, keep it open for 1 or 2 weeks so everyone can give their votes on how they believe MK does against the rest of the cast. Then we could open up a similar discussion for Snake on all characters except MK(since it was discussed already), then Diddy vs everyone except Snake and MK, and so on and so forth.
Wasn't this already done with the character threads for the last tier list?
 

Inferno3044

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Well, if we do what Smash 64 is doing, then we're already doing that in this thread.

Maybe we can open up a thread, and focus on one whole character at a time, then?

Like, keep it open for 1 or 2 weeks so everyone can give their votes on how they believe MK does against the rest of the cast. Then we could open up a similar discussion for Snake on all characters except MK(since it was discussed already), then Diddy vs everyone except Snake and MK, and so on and so forth.
Why don't they ask the individual boards? They didn't do this as far as I know. The Mario boards have an outline of our opinion more or less.
 

Exdeath

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Why don't they ask the individual boards? They didn't do this as far as I know. The Mario boards have an outline of our opinion more or less.
Because then you're a lot more likely to see something like "Bowser has a ground release on Meta Knight so he can land kill moves a lot earlier than Meta Knight can kill Bowser," where the reality is that Bowser probably won't land a kill move very easily, and Meta Knight will probably out-live Bowser stock-for-stock.

Some character boards understand how the game functions outside of very general gameplay, however not all character boards/players do. This is especially true of lower-tier characters, although it's not as bad as it used to be.
 

Inferno3044

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Because then you're a lot more likely to see something like "Bowser has a ground release on Meta Knight so he can land kill moves a lot earlier than Meta Knight can kill Bowser," where the reality is that Bowser probably won't land a kill move very easily, and Meta Knight will probably out-live Bowser stock-for-stock.

Some character boards understand how the game functions outside of very general gameplay, however not all character boards/players do. This is especially true of lower-tier characters, although it's not as bad as it used to be.
Fair enough. What if each board had a couple representatives? This will at least have statements from both sides and hopefully be more accurate.
 

rPSIvysaur

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Hmnm, I seem to remember in my studies that ZSS doesn't suffer any shield hitlag from Dsmash at all (one of the reasons the move is so safe), which would define Dsmash as a projectile. Apparently though, my studies have failed me in this regard, so I apologize for anyone I've mislead.

TIME TO GO DO MORE RESEARCH!!
You should ask the lab before you say something questionable, like I always do.

Dsmash is a projectile with no trajectory or velocity, which means it doesn't move, which means multiplying the speed or changing the angle (i.e. reflecting) sends it exactly nowhere. Since damage/kb from a move is calculated after the move is reflected, characters with reflectors aren't hit by moves they reflect. Since ZSS' dsmash is never really reflected to begin with (because the multipliers that change its' direction don't apply, 0xN=0 etc) the opponent is still hit by the attack.

The confusing thing for people is that ZSS' hitbubbles for dsmash actually do touch her(and touch behind her as well) but don't damage or stun her. I would guess this is because projectiles can't damage the person who creates them unless the angle/velocity is changed mid-launch, or unless they create another article on their own (Snake's nades exploding, etc).
Projectiles don't work the way you think they do.
Projectiles is pretty arbitrary of a term, as Brawl does not define projectiles. The game rather, uses articles as something that isn't directly an attack from a character. This includes things like Snake's D-smash Mine, Lucas' PK-Fire and ZSS Paralyzer. (note: Grenades, Bananas, Gyros and Turnips are considered items). Some of these can be reflected or absorbed, some can't. It depends on if a bit in the specials flag is set. This bit is also found on some attacks that aren't considered articles. This includes things like ZSS D-smash and Pikachu's Thunder (the part where he hits himself). However, in ZSS D-smash, the reflection bit is not set, therefore, you cannot actually reflect the hitbox back at ZSS. You can only absorb it because a different bit is set.
Now, when we actually look at the bit in question, we can define it's actual properties. Here is ZSS's D-smash Special Hitbox Flag:
014FFFC0
0000 0001 0100 1111 1111 1111 1100 0000

The top number is the number in Hexadecimal as it appears and is read, the bottom number is the binary bits that we can understand (see: Salute to the Flags). The first bolded bit (bit 8) determines if the hitbox can be absorbed. Since it is set to 1 (meaning on) it can be. The next bolded bit is the reflectability. It is set to 0 (meaning off). The means, without any doubt, that her hitbox cannot be reflected.

Sorry about the rant... I just dislike when my labbers get info wrong b/c they don't consult another member...
 

Dark.Pch

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I think Peach doesn't lose to Ics, but she doesn't beat them. Wolf is the same way in this regard vs Ics. He can laser blizzard wall and his bair is the safest move in the game when spaced on shield. Usmash pushes us out of grab range too. There aren't enough Wolf mains to contest that the matchup is even compared to Ics mains, but I know it's even and so does a few others. I'll let the people speak for themselves when I play said Ice climbers.
Just because that applies to you, does not mean it applies for me. I don't even think you know how this match up goes from both sides to even say that.
 

Alphicans

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Not every character is equally represented



I never saw this. Possible I could've overlooked it by accident.
We didn't make threads but we asked top/very knowledged players of every character. So I guess not exactly the same thing you were talking about. Sorry.
 

Inferno3044

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Don't you live in the same region as Limit? How on earth can you say this with a straight face? Mario being better at the matchup than Bowser is laughable in itself...
Both characters lose pretty bad. Jw what makes it so laughable?

I said "supposed to be," not "is."
Sorry. Misread

We didn't make threads but we asked top/very knowledged players of every character. So I guess not exactly the same thing you were talking about. Sorry.
Got it
 

Chuee

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@Inferno:
Yeah they both do, though I'd put Link and Samus in -4 before I'd put Bowser.
 

Flayl

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Inferno: Both are equally bad against Bowser for their own reasons. Both have their own trump cards as well.
 

Judo777

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Hey just to let you guys know. Its really really hard to tell how MU's go at high levels of play when there aren't many high level players of said character. Pika is my favorite example. ESAM right now is the only pikachu at the high level of play that we usually refer to when discussing MU's. As a result its really hard to distinguish pikas MU's because people can't really learn the MU at high level play without playing ESAM. And everytime you play against ESAM he gets JUST as much practice against your character as you do against his.

Chances are tho (since most top level players use the same handful of characters) ESAM has played your character before so not only is he always getting more MU experience then you (because when hes not playing you hes playing some other MK or snake or whoever) but also he is a few steps ahead of you when playing so he can focus more on learning YOU as a player than your character (since he already knows the MU pretty well). At the same time you are trying to learn the Pika MU AND learn ESAM's playstyle at the same time. Its pretty hard to tell MU's when the only examples you have are the same people always playing.

I think M2K and ADHD were like this for a time. Back when ADHD was the only high level diddy player (Gnes was great don't get me wrong but back when ADHD was first getting well known Gnes wasn't quite there if you ask me.) People always said that M2K should know the MU because he played ADHD so often but in reality how could M2K learn the MU when the only person he could learn it from (at high levels) was ADHD. ADHD definitely knew the MK MU (probably plays 3 every tourney) so he was always steps ahead of M2K simply because its pretty hard to learn a MU and become better than your opponent when the only character experience you get is through them.
 

John12346

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Alright, alright, I screwed up on everything.

I kinda made all of that MU chart up on the spot anyway, because I was just trying to get the other point across that MK didn't have any 0s going for his matchup spread.

The topic I was trying to get started was that we should discuss if the characters who have a 0 against MK really deserve to be 0, or in -1, or whether any characters who are -1 or worse against MK should be in 0.
 

Orion*

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Somebody needs to backhand them and tell them to face the fact that their character is very much borderline bannable, and not "just slightly better than he should be".

MK vs D3 SHOULD be -3. MK vs Lucario SHOULD be -2. MK vs Mario SHOULD be -3. If those on the MK panel can't accept these facts, throw them out and get new guys who actually understand these things and have a pair of balls. Stop sugarcoating things, face reality already: nobody goes even with MK. MK destroys a lot of characters, even with an LGL in place. Just because the best MK occasionally falls flat on his face or struggles with a particular MU doesn't suddenly mean it's neutral.
Who do you think you are, lol.
It's one thing to question our chart, in fact (as far as I know) it's encouraged. It's another thing to state facts like you have some vast amount of knowledge that other ("top") players don't.

As far as the this thread and your opinion goes, you are considered a random. So if you actually want people to listen to you, try to act like you have some kind of a brain instead of just spouting ideas as facts.
 

Marc

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All the people complaining about MK have to keep in mind opposing panels usually agreed to their rating, as every number in the chart is a result of both sides of the matchup coming together. The exceptions being a few numbers that didn't get resolved initially, they had a final judgement call made on them. You also have to wonder if you're being realistic, as MK is already the clear #1 even in this project with only three even matchups and no negative ones. While you might not agree with individual numbers, it's a little too easy to call the MKs out on sugarcoating because they don't think they hard counter the entire cast.
 

san.

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Probably because MK having 3 even matchups were unprecedented for years before this list came up with no prior warning or general mindset that any of those MUs were considered even.

Why aren't panelists for each character listed in the initial post?
 

Coney

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I wanted +2 for mk vs lucario but I really dont see how D3 is -3.... coney like 3 stocked m2k son and he used to main d3. That doesnt happen in a +3 mu :/
orion, you know and i know m2k was playing really, really stupid that first game. he was just balls-to-the-wall offense, which ddd is incredibly good at deflecting and punishing. game three was a bit better, but the fact that i think i would've won without an LGL means he wasn't quite there. wario v. ddd isn't any worse because i lost to malcolm, it's still a bad matchup that i'm just bad at.

that's neither here nor there--the point is, i may have done that, but i had to switch off ddd and go wario against tantalus. why? because he knows the matchup very well and continuously beats me in it. when the MK knows the matchup, it's doneskies.
 

Exdeath

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Probably because MK having 3 even matchups were unprecedented for years before this list came up with no prior warning or general mindset that any of those MUs were considered even.

Why aren't panelists for each character listed in the initial post?
That's probably because they were considered roughly even along with characters like Ice Climbers and Snake, but while ICs/Snake were considered to be more uneven than even, Falco/Pikachu/Diddy were considered to be more even than uneven, if that makes sense.
 

da K.I.D.

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orion, you know and i know m2k was playing really, really stupid that first game. he was just balls-to-the-wall offense, which ddd is incredibly good at deflecting and punishing. game three was a bit better, but the fact that i think i would've won without an LGL means he wasn't quite there. wario v. ddd isn't any worse because i lost to malcolm, it's still a bad matchup that i'm just bad at.

that's neither here nor there--the point is, i may have done that, but i had to switch off ddd and go wario against tantalus. why? because he knows the matchup very well and continuously beats me in it. when the MK knows the matchup, it's doneskies.
this is exactly what im talking about.
best mk = 3 stock
scrubby mk that knows the matchup = I have to switch character because i get ***** so hard.

i cant be the only person that sees a problem with this.

p.s. im not calling tant scrubby, but i think its fair to say that when you compare him to m2k, the term bad isnt out of the question.
 

Chuee

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orion, you know and i know m2k was playing really, really stupid that first game. he was just balls-to-the-wall offense, which ddd is incredibly good at deflecting and punishing. game three was a bit better, but the fact that i think i would've won without an LGL means he wasn't quite there. wario v. ddd isn't any worse because i lost to malcolm, it's still a bad matchup that i'm just bad at.

that's neither here nor there--the point is, i may have done that, but i had to switch off ddd and go wario against tantalus. why? because he knows the matchup very well and continuously beats me in it. when the MK knows the matchup, it's doneskies.
Yea, but even so wouldn't Atomsk be a MK who knows the MU?
I mean you took a game off him didn't you?
 

Coney

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Yea, but even so wouldn't Atomsk be a MK who knows the MU?
I mean you took a game off him didn't you?
this is true!

however, atomsk has told me many times before that he hates fighting ddd. i don't know why, but he apparently just does not feel comfortable in the ddd/mk matchup.

it should say something, though, that he says he won't go falco or ICs on me in tourney. i presume it's because they don't counter as hard as MK.

i hope you don't mind me namedropping you like this atomsk my love
see you in a week dearest
 

Judo777

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here is what i want to know. I thought we were using the general concept that if a character goes even on both game 1 and 3 (his opponents CP) but ***** face on game 2 its their favor (which btw MK does to everyone AND i don't honestly think any character goes even with MK on every neutral bar FD).
 
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