Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Nidtendofreak]

niddo, you need to chill out. seriously. nobody said the thing was gonna be perfect and not only that, who the hell are YOU to act all high and mighty like your the one that must be appeased by the chart?

If it's wrong, I'll point it out. *shrugs* Nor am I the only one point out issues. I don't need to be anyone to do so. Who are you to say that I need to be somebody to do so? Or is there some sort of unwritten rule where I need to attend more than two regional tournaments in order to point out that the scale is already 1 to 4 instead of 1 to 3?

@Tag: I know San has taken out at least one higher level MK at MLG, but I don't remember who it was. Judge maybe? *shrugs* Beyond M2K, Ally, and Dojo I tend to mix up all of the MK mains: too many of them, lol. I don't actually think Ike vs MK should be -2. It should be -3, it's the other MUs that really should be moved.

 

[Espy Rose]

Sooo, Niddo's Browny v. 2.0?

 

[Chuee]

@Tag: I know San has taken out at least one higher level MK at MLG, but I don't remember who it was. Judge maybe? *shrugs* Beyond M2K, Ally, and Dojo I tend to mix up all of the MK mains: too many of them, lol. I don't actually think Ike vs MK should be -2. It should be -3, it's the other MUs that really should be moved.

Judge is the only notable MK I know of.
He's beaten Seibrik in a MM but I don't know of anyone else.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If it's wrong, I'll point it out. *shrugs* Nor am I the only one point out issues. I don't need to be anyone to do so. Who are you to say that I need to be somebody to do so? Or is there some sort of unwritten rule where I need to attend more than two regional tournaments in order to point out that the scale is already 1 to 4 instead of 1 to 3?

@Tag: I know San has taken out at least one higher level MK at MLG, but I don't remember who it was. Judge maybe? *shrugs* Beyond M2K, Ally, and Dojo I tend to mix up all of the MK mains: too many of them, lol. I don't actually think Ike vs MK should be -2. It should be -3, it's the other MUs that really should be moved.

you arent the only one pointing out issues, but you ARE the only one being a complete douche about it.

 

[Alphicans]

It's already a 1-4 scale. You mean a 1-5 scale. Either way, 0 should mean truly neutral at a minimum, not "close to truly neutral". And then there are the other issues others and I have brought up. >_>

Hopefully v2.0 is much better.

How are we supposed to know if any match-up (besides dittos) are truly even. There's always going to be some sort of advantage in one character's favour. Whether or not it's significant enough to go to a -1 match-up is the question we had to answer when making this chart.

 

[OverLade]

Snake dittos arent even because of port priority

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

^^^
thats true, 55:45 p4

 

[Exdeath]

Snake dittos arent even because of port priority

But what does that advantage constitute when ranking the match-up? Even though it isn't truly even, it would be listed as even under the match-up chart because it's considered irrelevant. At what point does an advantage constitute being listed as an "advantage?"

 

[Spelt]

I wish mk vs fox was 0 on this chart just so i could see niddo's reaction.

 

[Steam]

I really dont see how its a huge stretch for Ike to be -3 considering the good quality characters with quality wins already at -2. What notable wins do Ikes have against notable MKs that make this such a large error?

I think it's more that there are some characters who have a -2 who are basically invalidated by MK. They've already expresed that -3 is the right ratio for ike. It's just that the other matchups are sugarcoated.

also lolwut at GW and Lucario being 16th and 17th on the weighted list

 

[Nidtendofreak]

you arent the only one pointing out issues, but you ARE the only one being a complete douche about it.

But I'm not being that either. I'm being painfully blunt yes, but not being a douche about it. If you want I can try though.

Seriously, you all seem to think I'm yelling at my computer while foaming at the mouth, typing away in a blind maelstrom of fury. I'm not. I'm not even particularly mad about this: just painfully blunt in my opinions. If one character in particular is getting a lot of complaints about MUs related to them: that panel did something wrong and you should seriously consider switching them out. If multiple complains are popping up all over the place: why keep the scale that may be causing many of the complaints?

@Alphicans: Poor wording on my part. I meant "as close as humanly possible to judge a MU between two different characters as even". Such MUs do exist, MK does not have one.

@Stream: Exactly. Me thinks MK needs some more +4s seeing as Ike is -3 and characters have it worse than Ike against MK.

 

[Steam]

yeah... I mean... how on earth does DK have it easier against MK than Ike or RoB? >.>

I'm actually very interested to see what was typed up about MK vs. DK. Can we see what was said about it?

 

[Exdeath]

But I'm not being that either. I'm being painfully blunt yes, but not being a douche about it. If you want I can try though.

There's a difference between being blunt and being high-handed.

 

[Chuee]

@Stream: Exactly. Me thinks MK needs some more +4s seeing as Ike is -3 and characters have it worse than Ike against MK.

The chart says -3 is equal to 65-35 and 70-30 in the old method, so technically they can do worse than ike but still be listed as -3.

 

[Poltergust]

mario/lucas/yoshi off the top of my head shouldve been -3

No. I can't speak for Mario or Lucas, but there is no way MK is as hard as Lucario for Yoshi. The difference in difficulty between them is far too great. MK is more around the difficulty of Wolf and Toon Link.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

also lolwut at GW and Lucario being 16th and 17th on the weighted list

Lucario has +3 against Yoshi, Sonic, and Ganondorf, aka two mid tiers and a bottom tier.

+2 on Pikachu is nice, other than that, he doesn't do much to counter the cast.

 

[Steam]

Lucario has +3 against Yoshi, Sonic, and Ganondorf, aka two mid tiers and a bottom tier.

+2 on Pikachu is nice, other than that, he doesn't do much to counter the cast.

but there are people above him with like worse high tier matchups...

Didn't think he'd be that bad overall. I think the MK being -2 and some other MK matchups being skewed has a lot to do with it

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

but there are people above him with like worse high tier matchups...

Didn't think he'd be that bad overall. I think the MK being -2 and some other MK matchups being skewed has a lot to do with it

Well Lucario is what I would call the Ryu of this game, lol my name.

Lot of even match-ups/small advantages/disadvantrages but not destroying anyone important.

Compare him with Mr. Game and Watch, Game and Watch has way worse match-ups with people above him, Lucario is pretty good with this and has a better smoother MUs with people above him.

Then look below him, G&W has more 1's and 2's compared to Lucario who has more 0s and 1s.

On a tier list based solely on MU's Lucario would be a lot lower, however if you weighted it based on what matters, destroying low tiers isn't important if they don't pop up very often compared to high tiers which pop up a lot more.

So we get an equilibrium where they are close to each other.

Lucario, Mr. G&W, and ZSS and three high tiers that are stuck next to each other, because they are really close to each other in performance and overall MU spreads, imo.

 

[Steam]

Well Lucario is what I would call the Ryu of this game, lol my name.

Lot of even match-ups/small advantages/disadvantrages but not destroying anyone important.

Compare him with Mr. Game and Watch, Game and Watch has way worse match-ups with people above him, Lucario is pretty good with this and has a better smoother MUs with people above him.

Then look below him, G&W has more 1's and 2's compared to Lucario who has more 0s and 1s.

On a tier list based solely on MU's Lucario would be a lot lower, however if you weighted it based on what matters, destroying low tiers isn't important if they don't pop up very often compared to high tiers which pop up a lot more.

So we get an equilibrium where they are close to each other.

Lucario, Mr. G&W, and ZSS and three high tiers that are stuck next to each other, because they are really close to each other in performance and overall MU spreads, imo.

on the unweighted chart, Lucario is like 14th. On the true weighted one he fell to 17th :/ below like Tink and Peach. though IDK they get wrecked by MK much harder than luc does yet they all have the same number... lol

though 12 through like 17 are really close...

 

[Exdeath]

Lucario, Mr. G&W, and ZSS and three high tiers that are stuck next to each other, because they are really close to each other in performance and overall MU spreads, imo.

You can't really compare their performance because of how different they are. G&W has held a consistent spot as a threat to lower-tier characters, but little national success (with multiple notable players), where ZSS has a single incident of nearly winning a large tournament and otherwise still placing above the other characters (and with only one notable player), and Lucario, who had strong showings in the beginning of the metagame via Azen/Lee and otherwise has occasionally taken a name but still not placed well at a large tournament (with multiple notable players).

In order words, G&W, ZSS, and Lucario can be seen as consistently sub-successful, temporarily highly-successful, and occasionally successful characters, respectively.

Also, as a side-note, I think that the Peach/Lucario vs. Meta Knight match-ups aren't very far apart (both -3ish IMO).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I feel like Lucario has a more evenish spread going around the cast, when he wins, it usually doesn't exceed a +2.

Then you get to mid tier where he has 0's and 1's, a few +2s, then the two +3's he has.

High tier he is mostly even, except for DDD and Pikachu.

Top tier he goes even or loses slightly, then loses worse to Snake and MK.

You can't really compare their performance because of how different they are. G&W has held a consistent spot as a threat to lower-tier characters, but little national success (with multiple notable players), where ZSS has a single incident of nearly winning a large tournament and otherwise still placing above the other characters (and with only one notable player), and Lucario, who had strong showings in the beginning of the metagame via Azen/Lee and otherwise has occasionally taken a name but still not placed well at a large tournament (with multiple notable players).

In order words, G&W, ZSS, and Lucario can be seen as consistently sub-successful, temporarily highly-successful, and occasionally successful characters, respectively.

I for the most part agree with this.

Also, as a side-note, I think that the Peach/Lucario vs. Meta Knight match-ups aren't very far apart (both -3ish IMO).

Florida still hates Lucario. /jk

I disagree, I've talked and played it as both Peach and Lucario, there is a notable difference in difficult.

 

[Exdeath]

I disagree, I've talked and played it as both Peach and Lucario, there is a notable difference in difficult.

I semi-regularly (at least once a month, but it's not uncommon to play with them once a week) play with Kyon's Peach and Mampam's Lucario, and their attributes/difficulties are quite similar. The main differences that I would put between them is that Peach is easier to juggle. able to put up a mildly better pressure game (which is irrelevant against MK in both cases once MK understands how to get around it), and Lucario is easier to gimp. I think that Lucario is better than Peach as a character in general (Peach has better frame data,early % set-ups, and better movement baits on MetaKnight, but Lucario has better control/momentum, hit boxes, aura -- not that it matters, etc. vs. him later), but I don't believe that it's enough to merit a full +/-1 difference in this case, just because of how the match-up generally progresses.

It's usually a matter of running away to get some space, baiting a mistake from MK, and then punishing that (generally involving MK dashing or mis-spacing). When MK gets them off of the stage, it's very difficult for them to return. When they get hit off-stage without a second jump, they don't come back (assuming that they can recover the distance without MK's interference) unless they make a hard read (in Lucario's case, that doesn't usually matter, either). This is actually a characteristic of pretty much all of MK's -3 match-ups.

 

[Steam]

yeah Lucario is never a threat to win anything big, but he's consistantly up there (like top 16ish)

and no way MK is a -3 lol... if Lucario has any -3s it's Snake and/or D3. Those are the two characters that top lucarios ALWAYS lose to...

edit: Lucario can actually kinda space MK though.... has a better projectile... and doesn't have like half his entire game destroyed by shuttle loop. Plus lucario can kills from reads easier. Both FCAS and Fsmash outrange MK's moveset and go through all his moves.

I've played MK/Lucario from both sides and MK/Peach as MK... As MK I feel I have to be more worried when against lucario because he can easily punish a lot of MKs stuff. Against peach I feel like I just have to be near her to put her under a lot of pressure. and her ground game is garb.

 

[Tagxy]

But I'm not being that either. I'm being painfully blunt yes, but not being a douche about it. If you want I can try though.

Seriously, you all seem to think I'm yelling at my computer while foaming at the mouth, typing away in a blind maelstrom of fury. I'm not. I'm not even particularly mad about this: just painfully blunt in my opinions. If one character in particular is getting a lot of complaints about MUs related to them: that panel did something wrong and you should seriously consider switching them out. If multiple complains are popping up all over the place: why keep the scale that may be causing many of the complaints?

@Alphicans: Poor wording on my part. I meant "as close as humanly possible to judge a MU between two different characters as even". Such MUs do exist, MK does not have one.

The problem is the same people complaining about MK's MUs actually have no clue or basis for making such blanket assumptions in the first place. Douchey is the wrong word, pretentious without the earned social standing to back it up better describes it (earned from winning, knowledge, experience, etc.). I mean its one thing to discuss with knowledge of your own main, but can you really tell me about the intricacies of the MK vs DDD, GW, Sonic MU to say that hes better off in the same tier as ike? Do you really have the experience to speak about MK vs Diddy, Falco, Pikachu to make the statement you did to Alphicans? Its one thing to ask questions and start a conversation, but to claim anything about these other MUs is redic.

@Stream: Exactly. Me thinks MK needs some more +4s seeing as Ike is -3 and characters have it worse than Ike against MK.

To be honest this gets to the root of the problem. What Im seeing isnt "MK has too many evens/+1s" or "these +2's should be +3s". Its a sugarcoated way of saying "Why is my X character worse against MK then Y characters".

So try this. ignore the actual number or pretend everyone is bumped up +1, why does Ike deserve to be in the class above him? Because from what I've seen (and this is more result oriented) San is able to beat amazing players like Razer and Gnes, while losing to people like pikapika's and Doom's MK. Im not purposely trying to knock skill here (sorry namesearches) but its pretty obvious theres a big skill gap here that only metaknight can account for. In the meantime you have Coney taking games from M2K and atomsk, sonics tearing through MK's at MLG, and even Ness knocking out some big names. So tell me how does Ike fit in with them?

 

[DMG]

So try this. ignore the actual number or pretend everyone is bumped up +1, why does Ike deserve to be in the class above him? Because from what I've seen (and this is more result oriented) San is able to beat amazing players like Razer and Gnes, while losing to people like pikapika's and Doom's MK. Im not purposely trying to knock skill here (sorry namesearches) but its pretty obvious theres a big skill gap here that only metaknight can account for. In the meantime you have Coney taking games from M2K and atomsk, sonics tearing through MK's at MLG, and even Ness knocking out some big names. So tell me how does Ike fit in with them?

None of those characters do well against MK. The only one with a reasonable MU vs him is Sonic tbh. Ness, Dedede, and Ike all go at least 65:35 with MK, if not full blown hard counter mode.


When you are talking about character potential/viability, always look through a long term perspective. Coney vs M2K for example looks like the MU is really close... and then you remember all the videos of Dedede struggling against Tornado and edge guarding and shuttle loop. Or FOW beating Havok/Tyrant, and then you remember that Ness hasn't really done **** besides that (Shaky too FLARBLE GARBLE). Or San vs Houston... and then you remember that Ike is still god damn Ike.


THAT is what kills MU discussions: people looking at the short term results and making a decision. You don't look at M2K vs Gnes (The recent set, not the more "infamous" set people remember from long ago) and instantly go "The MK Diddy MU sure must be Bull**** for Diddy". You don't look at Coney vs M2K and go "This looks really close, maybe even if there was a LGL". You gotta look at things from a broader perspective: if you based your MU opinion solely off those individual sets, you would miss other sets between the same characters that paint a different picture. Everyone says they base their MU opinion over the broad term, but we ALL know more than half of you SOB's see Coney vs M2K or San vs Gnes and instantly cream your pants mentally and short circuit your brain to neglect thoughts besides "****".

 

[Coney]

it doesn't matter how many games i or anybody else take off; there's a reason i didn't win those sets.

 

[Tagxy]

You intermixed "being a better character" and "being better at the MK MU" throughout your post. I wasnt discussing who was a better character. Nor did I say any of these characters did "well" vs MK. The only comment I made in what you quoted was that DDD, Ness, Sonic, and that group in general appeared to do better in their MK MU then Ike. I also left room for others to reason why he would do as well with specifics, not blanket generalizations as Id criticized earlier in my post. Also Im not using those dumb old ratios .

And looking at longterm perspective isnt the same as looking at the current metagame. Im not going to predict what the Ike vs MK MU is in May 2012.

 

[DMG]

You intermixed "being a better character" and "being better at the MK MU" throughout your post. I wasnt discussing who was a better character. Nor did I say any of these characters did "well" vs MK. The only comment I made in what you quoted was that DDD, Ness, Sonic, and that group in general appeared to do better in their MK MU then Ike. I also left room for others to reason why he would do as well with specifics, not blanket generalizations as Id criticized earlier in my post. Also Im not using those dumb old ratios .

And looking at longterm perspective isnt the same as looking at the current metagame. Im not going to predict what the Ike vs MK MU is in May 2012.

When I say long term, I'm not exclusively talking about what a matchup will look like in the future, but what the MU has looked like in the past over a reasonable period of time. Coney vs M2K for example, but then forgetting plenty of D3 vs MK sets in the last 3-6 months to a year that show something different.

"Current" is one thing, but people tend to take that REALLY far and look at things on a weekly/monthly basis, and base their entire MU feelings on that. Look at the "hype" characters that people have said goes even with MK: almost EVERY single time, people assumed that after 1-2 close sets with a top MK player. Vex gave someone the ****, WOW BOWSER GOES CLOSE. Atomsk 2 stocked a MK, WOW DEDEDE GOES CLOSE. Yoshi doing work, WOW HE MIGHT WIN CG SO GAY.

Why did that die out? Because the results and sets weren't consistent like that at all. Sure, it might look good at the time, but take it with a grain of salt and you emerge a smarter person for it.

 

[Exdeath]

Or FOW beating Havok/Tyrant, and then you remember that Ness hasn't really done **** besides that (Shaky too FLARBLE GARBLE).

The Ness MU is pretty garbage, but the results are pretty legitimate. Shaky traded wins with Seibrik, at least beat Judge, and IIRC the only Meta Knights he has losing records to are Tear Bear and Red Halberd, whom he's only played once and the latter was a near win. They both have a pretty solid record vs. MKs IIRC.

 

[Chuee]

^
Tyrant beat Shaky too

 

[Exdeath]

^
Tyrant beat Shaky too

Thanks for adding that.

As DMG said, Tyrant beat Shaky, but went on to lose to FOW. Really, if you replace their character with Meta Knight, it's suddenly an accomplishment. When they beat them with Ness, it's because they don't know the match-up. That's somewhat ironic, all considering.

 

[Spelt]

...except, it IS because they don't know the matchup 90% of the time.

 

[Judo777]

Thanks for adding that.

As DMG said, Tyrant beat Shaky, but went on to lose to FOW. Really, if you replace their character with Meta Knight, it's suddenly an accomplishment. When they beat them with Ness, it's because they don't know the match-up. That's somewhat ironic, all considering.

Or maybe its possible that FOW waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy out played tyrant as opposed to Shaky who maybe just slightly outplayed him. Thats what happens when you have MU's that bad.

 

[OverLade]

The Ness MU is pretty garbage, but the results are pretty legitimate. Shaky traded wins with Seibrik, at least beat Judge, and IIRC the only Meta Knights he has losing records to are Tear Bear and Red Halberd, whom he's only played once and the latter was a near win. They both have a pretty solid record vs. MKs IIRC.

I think Ness is 40/60 MK, not any worse. Unlike most characters Ness doesn't have any trouble killing MK. He can kill MKs that dair camp with Uair (and it kills pretty low) and can kill MKs that camp on the ground with Bthrow. I think not knowing the matchup accounts for a large number of losses, but I think a sufficiently skilled top Ness can outplay a skilled MK and win the matchup that way. Characters like Dedede get ***** because they have no reliable way to kill outside of hard reads. IMO Ness does better than Wario vs MK.

Or maybe its possible that FOW waaaaaaaayyyyyyyy out played tyrant as opposed to Shaky who maybe just slightly outplayed him. Thats what happens when you have MU's that bad.

Get out of here with that meatriding. Tyrant had already played FOW by the time he played Shaky, giving him better matchup exp. Supposedly FOW spiked Tyrant which is why he won (no discredit to FOW of course, but things like that are avoidable if you know what to look for). Both Ness players are great, and I dont think Ness gets gimmicked very hard by MK at all. He has an advantage, but that's it.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

fow is the ****. that's just how it is. not meatriding, just repping because i saw him play at WG4 and it was awesome!

 

[Coney]

IMO Ness does better than Wario vs MK.

word?

i actually thought so for a while, and was juggling between the two as my anti-MK solution. i wanted to do ness but i felt like if they knew the MU, i'd have to be SO careful. at least wario has survivability and that amazing wild card.

 

[Exdeath]

I think Ness is 40/60 MK, not any worse. Unlike most characters Ness doesn't have any trouble killing MK. He can kill MKs that dair camp with Uair (and it kills pretty low) and can kill MKs that camp on the ground with Bthrow. I think not knowing the matchup accounts for a large number of losses, but I think a sufficiently skilled top Ness can outplay a skilled MK and win the matchup that way. Characters like Dedede get ***** because they have no reliable way to kill outside of hard reads. IMO Ness does better than Wario vs MK.

Get out of here with that meatriding. Tyrant had already played FOW by the time he played Shaky, giving him better matchup exp. Supposedly FOW spiked Tyrant which is why he won (no discredit to FOW of course, but things like that are avoidable if you know what to look for). Both Ness players are great, and I dont think Ness gets gimmicked very hard by MK at all. He has an advantage, but that's it.

The problem with the Ness MU is that Meta Knight can stay low in the air and Ness loses his direct kill options. Ness can't grab and Uair isn't really an option. Bair can out-space it on a read, but it's obvious enough (Ness will be backward) that MK can get back on the ground and react to Ness' options from there.

The main reason why I believe that the match-up is bad is that I had a close loss to Shaky -- despite being a low-mid-level player at the time -- and you had a close win to Shaky -- despite being a high-level player at the time. As far as I know, we had about the same experience against Ness. You are smarter than I am, learn/adapt faster than I do, in better control of Meta Knight than I am, and have a much better reaction time than I do.

 

[Chuee]

I have a hard time believing Ness does better against MK than Wario.
Especially with the GR smallstep.

 

[DMG]

I think Ness is 40/60 MK, not any worse. Unlike most characters Ness doesn't have any trouble killing MK. He can kill MKs that dair camp with Uair (and it kills pretty low) and can kill MKs that camp on the ground with Bthrow. I think not knowing the matchup accounts for a large number of losses, but I think a sufficiently skilled top Ness can outplay a skilled MK and win the matchup that way. Characters like Dedede get ***** because they have no reliable way to kill outside of hard reads. IMO Ness does better than Wario vs MK.

Get out of here with that meatriding. Tyrant had already played FOW by the time he played Shaky, giving him better matchup exp. Supposedly FOW spiked Tyrant which is why he won (no discredit to FOW of course, but things like that are avoidable if you know what to look for). Both Ness players are great, and I dont think Ness gets gimmicked very hard by MK at all. He has an advantage, but that's it.

IDK. I think 6:4 would be going easy. Are you forgetting GR shenanigens that MK has on him? That alone would push it to 6:4 imo. Yeah Ness has some tools, but you also gotta remember Ness is stuck doing that same ol "Fair to Rising Nair to Dair" pattern I've seen everyone from 08 to 11 use to win. Not falling for that is a BIG step towards not getting *****.

word?

i actually thought so for a while, and was juggling between the two as my anti-MK solution. i wanted to do ness but i felt like if they knew the MU, i'd have to be SO careful. at least wario has survivability and that amazing wild card.

 

[Coney]

Ness is stuck doing that same ol "Fair to Rising Nair to Dair" pattern I've seen everyone from 08 to 11 use to win.

EVERY NESS DOES THIS

except shaky and, i assume, FOW

myself included, it just feels so right

maybe that's why they're good!