Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Maharba the Mystic]

um... while that is universal for most ness's that i've watched, while fow does it too, his ness play is so much more than that. like i said, fow is the ****. and that's just how it is

 

[Flayl]

MK's pummel is terrible. It's worse than Bowser's.

 

[da K.I.D.]

fow is really good, but his skill with the character doesnt change the fact that he gets destroyed by mk. as a matter of fact, it exemplifies it imo. i watched a vid where he was clearly out playing m2k, and than got grabbed at 20, CGd across the stage. broke out of the grab which pushed the characters offstage, and than got gimped.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Flayl, that's only there so that sakurai can say 'he's not broken his pummel and jab are balls '.

 

[deepseadiva]

MK's pummel is terrible. It's worse than Bowser's.

At least it looks damaging.

Imagine a pointy wing repeatedly stabbing you in the face.

 

[Flayl]

My point is getting ground-released cg'd by MK is more the Ness's player fault than game mechanics'. He can avoid it.

 

[DMG]

My point is getting ground-released cg'd by MK is more the Ness's player fault than game mechanics'. He can avoid it.

It's not the easiest thing in the world to get though.

 

[Flayl]

I would expect people to practice escaping setups from the most popular and best character in the game.

But then again this is smash.

I mean after seeing Espy powershield lasers flawlessly, it doesn't really seem that hard.

 

[Spelt]

watching a guy smack through a 2x4 doesn't seem that hard either imo.

 

[Exdeath]

EVERY NESS DOES THIS

except shaky and, i assume, FOW

myself included, it just feels so right

maybe that's why they're good!

Shaky does it too haha.

 

[-Mars-]

Someone confirm for me whether or not Shaky trains with Shake Weights plz???

 

[vato_break]

jus use fludd imo

 

[Lenus Altair]

I have to say the Match Up chart is very encouraging for Pit.

In a one on one conversation between the Pit boards and those of another main, other mains agree the Pit is even or may even have a slight advantage on them going up into high tier. However I've seen a lot of disbelief from those who comment on Pit's match ups and main neither character involved. This doesn't only apply to Pit either.

I think this chart goes a long way to help show how much the tier list has been warped by a handful of players skills versus a characters actual ability. I'm not claiming this chart is spot on, but is a step in the right direction. It feels more acurate then the current tier list anyway.

 

[Steam]

just saying, it could also be warped by people trying to distort character matchups so their character gets a boost.

 

[Lenus Altair]

just saying, it could also be warped by people trying to distort character matchups so their character gets a boost.

True. But I view it as a much better system instead having say any given main rank all the characters in the tier list when they only have insight into a handful of characters and their match ups at best.

In this system at least it's an agreement between the most qualified people on a matchup... the mains who participate in that match. There is still bias involved, but at least its an educated bias.

 

[da K.I.D.]

i have a question.

i have understand and realised what the different matchups mean. but im wondering, does that mean the same thing for every character?

example. on one hand you have a character like game and watch. for the most part, he is very 1 dimensional and basic, because of this, if you have characters that can out space him (marth) out damage and out live him (snake) or mainly just beat the normal gaw play style (mk) then the character is going to be disadvantaged, and since it doesnt seem that he has too many effective ways to circumvent these weaknesses, even minor disadvantages seem to be high hurdles to over come.

then you have a character like sonic. sonic is known for outright losing matchups to many of the characters in the game. but at the same time, it doesnt seem out of the ordinary to see sonic win any of his bad matchups, since the character has more ability to vary his playstyle in order to get around his inherent weaknesses and defeat characters like mk, who has a sizable adv over him.

so between 2 characters like this, is a -1 the same for each character? it would seem like -1 is still a lot lower in difficulty for sonic than it would be for gaw. how are things like that taken into account, if at all?

 

[Nefarious B]

I would say ability to circumvent a weakness makes it that much less of a weakness. The numbers should be the same across characters, otherwise what's the point if you can't compare them?

So as for your example, if Sonic's -1 is that much easier to win than GaW's -1, then GaW should actually be -2.

 

[Steam]

the scale isn't nearly large enough to account for all these differences :/

 

[Alphicans]

Lol that made me look back at the match-ups and I noticed sonic is -1 with snake and gaw is -2 with him. That's very funny.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

sonic is a bad character with the general "go kill them first" gameplay. but sonic is excells at being able to time people out for some reason. or that's wat i got from watching arikie in cali against tc1

anyways if you are playing to time some1 out i think that changes some of his match up numbers. but that's just imo

 

[Technodeath]

I think everyone just can't come to reality that Sonic is better than what people think he is.

 

[Alphicans]

Actually that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I think sonic vs snake being -1 is fine. I am saying gaw should be -1 as well.

 

[Technodeath]

Fair enough then. I've got no qualms with that ratio.

 

[Attila_]

out of interest, who are the snakes that contributed to this list?

its a little off O_o

 

[etecoon]

aside from any disagreements that were already in place, snake becomes significantly worse in a lot of matchups with legalized planking and I've heard that there's going to be an MK only LGL, so this chart is also outdated on arrival in that sense

 

[Attila_]

im more so talking about snake beating ics/diddy, going even with wario and beating lucario/gw +2.

and how is olimar not worse than -1?

 

[etecoon]

yeah, I just meant in addition to that. I agree with all of those though and DDD should be -2 IMO

I also don't think snake has such a clear advantage on pit but because of his overall poor representation I wouldn't expect that to change like...ever. maybe I'm biased because I've seen two top snakes get curb stomped by koolaid repeatedly but I think the same could be said of people who don't have good pits in their region

 

[Attila_]

that too.

espc d3 lol

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

im more so talking about snake beating ics/diddy, going even with wario and beating lucario/gw +2.

and how is olimar not worse than -1?

Are you saying then that Snake doesn't beat Icys? But Diddy is pretty close I think. Olimar for -2!

 

[Lenus Altair]

I also don't think snake has such a clear advantage on pit but because of his overall poor representation I wouldn't expect that to change like...ever. maybe I'm biased because I've seen two top snakes get curb stomped by koolaid repeatedly but I think the same could be said of people who don't have good pits in their region

I'm so glad you brought that up. I really am.

 

[Alphicans]

Are you saying then that Snake doesn't beat Icys? But Diddy is pretty close I think. Olimar for -2!

IC's vs snake is really weird. I think it's probably even though. Top of the metagame IC's (japanese ones) seem to do it really well, and I don't think snake can really afford to take IC's to any good counter stages vs them because he usually sucks at the same stages they do.

 

[OnlyUseMeNades]

IC's vs snake is really weird. I think it's probably even though. Top of the metagame IC's (japanese ones) seem to do it really well, and I don't think snake can really afford to take IC's to any good counter stages vs them because he usually sucks at the same stages they do.

I never though about CP stages, but Snake beats them pretty well on the normal stages as well. What else do the Icys have that Snake can't deal with?

 

[Alphicans]

Snake isn't that great at avoiding grabs, although his grenades really cover his tracks. If people learned to SDI, or better yet, shield DI, snake would be getting ***** pretty bad by IC's.

 

[da K.I.D.]

sonic is a bad character with the general "go kill them first" gameplay. but sonic is excells at being able to time people out for some reason. or that's wat i got from watching arikie in cali against tc1

anyways if you are playing to time some1 out i think that changes some of his match up numbers. but that's just imo

alright, let me explain this to you.

Sonic is a character that is good at playing in a reactionary/defensive style. Because of his speed, he is good at playing keep away and making the opponent attack him in less than optimal ways.
however, to play sonic optimally in this regard, the sonic actually has to take advantage of the openings made by his playstyle. attempting to time people out and play overly defensive means that the opponent is free to get desperate and do put themselves in awful situations repeated because the sonic isnt going to punish them for it if he is trying to get the time out. when the opponent does this, the sonic tends to get put in a corner, and with out the priority to make ways out for himself, the sonic will typically lose the lead and the match.

The time outs occur only when the sonic is playing a reactionary game, has a lead, and the opponent is too stupid to attack and tries to play defensive back and bait the sonic into approaching. which hes not going to do because hes waiting for the opponent to make a mistake or do something laggy or unsafe. if the other guy is just going to stay safe and not approach, the sonic is not obligated to approach if he has the lead, so hes gonna sit back and let the dude time himself out.

I think everyone just can't come to reality that Sonic is better than what people think he is.

a lot of this.

Actually that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I think sonic vs snake being -1 is fine. I am saying gaw should be -1 as well.

personally i think they should both be -2 but thats just me.

aside from any disagreements that were already in place, snake becomes significantly worse in a lot of matchups with legalized planking and I've heard that there's going to be an MK only LGL, so this chart is also outdated on arrival in that sense

so youre saying that the matchup chart is outdated because of rules that havent been made or implemented yet?

 

[Steam]

if the number for snake/Lucario had to change in some way it would be +3 for Snake :/

though +2 is right... matchup is complete ***

 

[Spelt]

+2 doesn't mean complete ***.

+3 and +4 mean complete ***.

 

[Steam]

for a +2 matchup it's rather ***

 

[Attila_]

discussion from both top snakes and top ics seems to illude that the mu may actually be in ics favour.

and diddy/snake is even; ally is just too goods.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

alright, let me explain this to you.

Sonic is a character that is good at playing in a reactionary/defensive style. Because of his speed, he is good at playing keep away and making the opponent attack him in less than optimal ways.
however, to play sonic optimally in this regard, the sonic actually has to take advantage of the openings made by his playstyle. attempting to time people out and play overly defensive means that the opponent is free to get desperate and do put themselves in awful situations repeated because the sonic isnt going to punish them for it if he is trying to get the time out. when the opponent does this, the sonic tends to get put in a corner, and with out the priority to make ways out for himself, the sonic will typically lose the lead and the match.

The time outs occur only when the sonic is playing a reactionary game, has a lead, and the opponent is too stupid to attack and tries to play defensive back and bait the sonic into approaching. which hes not going to do because hes waiting for the opponent to make a mistake or do something laggy or unsafe. if the other guy is just going to stay safe and not approach, the sonic is not obligated to approach if he has the lead, so hes gonna sit back and let the dude time himself out.

thank you for explaining that. i've always wondered wat the sonic general metagame was

 

[Z'zgashi]

though +2 is right... matchup is complete ***

You know what lucario match up is complete ****?

The yoshi one....