Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[SaveMeJebus]

Fine, I guess a better example would be like Lucario vs. Sonic or R.O.B vs. DDD. Diddy is a G&W hard counter

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

FOOL!


I do not want to listen to your petty arguments.
Jigglypuff has good kill options.

Even Bair and Nair kill at high percents when sweetspotted.

 

[Steam]

Fine, I guess a better example would be like Lucario vs. Sonic or R.O.B vs. DDD. Diddy is a G&W hard counter

Lucario doesn't hard counter sonic.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lucario doesn't hard counter sonic.

Lucario vs. Yoshi. I know Lucario hard counters Yoshi. For Sonic, I was just going by what the match up chart said

 

[Sinister Slush]

Lucario vs. Yoshi. I know Lucario hard counters Yoshi. For Sonic, I was just going by what the match up chart said

Lucario Never dies and eats through 2 of our 4 Kill moves against him.
But recently there's been a few who think it's a -2 MU instead of -3.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I used to think it was -3, but as of the last couple months Ive come to think of it as more of a -2. Tbh, I think Falco is more difficult than Lucario and he's only a -2 imo as well.

If you wanna hard counter say Pika vs Falcon or something.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

My point is that Diddy hard counters G&W. The match up is so bad that Diddy can continue to trip G&W with the same banana just by jumping and fast fall instant throwing it back at him.

 

[phi1ny3]

Lucario doesn't hard counter sonic.

If he doesn't -3 it's probably a really stupidly hard -2.

 

[Doc King]

They have the same cooldown, and Ness releases closer, so if he can do it to Lucas he can do it to ness.

If you face away from Jiggz you can shielgrab it.

I tested this and Ness slides too far for D3 to regrab him unlike Lucas.

Lol @ Yoshi being -2 to DDD.

It's the infinite that makes it so hard.

D3 also has a good d tilt followup and can kill him pretty early for a heavy character.

Well he can dash grab, not sure of the specifics, but the timing is preeeeeetty tight.

Dash grab grounded release (if you buffer your pummels properly, or he'll just air release (not sure if the ground release is forced, I assume it is) releases Lucas a lot closer than a normal grab though.

But imo you'd be better off chaingrabbing unless you're desperate to stale your pummel.

I think that at high percents and on the edges, you can use this technique pretty well.

this thread is full of people talking about characters they main and comparing them to characters they know nothing about. which results in a ton of misinformation...

sonic is effectively the exact same weight as mario, but because of spindash, vastly outlives him. some people may describe this as heaviness, since some refer to the entire sub-system of how one avoids dying in this game in terms of weight. not saying this is right or wrong, but it should be fairly easy to spot when this is happening and not be confused by it.

if puff misses a rest on shiek, she should probably transform into zelda, and up smash or lightning kick her or something.

Just because it doesnt light you on fire and kill you at 5 anymore, doesnt mean rest is not a viable kill move. it still kills at respectable percents for normal moves.

everyone needs to stop saying thing without backing it up. and ESPECIALLY dont say things about characters that you dont have a solid base of information on. since mains of every character frequent this thread and you WILL be exposed.

I kind of laughed to this.

I disagree about DDD being +3 against Ike. It's +2 for him IMO, nothing less, nothing more. Ike has the tools to beat DDD and CG and getting gimped are really the only things DDD has on Ike (Ike can avoid getting grabbed better than you think thanks to his massively ranged aerials), though Ike is still harder to gimp than Link and Ganondorf is and Ike can also edge guard DDD pretty well.

lol at this fail post.

What kind of tools does Ike have against D3 (Jabs and some spacing? Not enough tools imo). Ike is like the only character D3 actually outspeeds. Pretty much all of D3's air attacks are faster than Ikes and some ground attacks too and also grabs and throws. D3 has more to Ike than chaingrabs and getting gimped like D3 has good options to punish Ike's side B (Which is like the only fast thing going for him) like waddle dee throw and swallow. You could probably camp this guy with waddle dee throw. D3 also has a halberd lock on the 2nd stage on the edges. Ike has good range to prevent grabs, but it's not that hard getting a grab. D3 can edge guard Ike pretty well like his waddles can stop his side b and he can like f smash out of his aether. I can't see how Ike can edge guard D3 well at all. D3 can like fly in the air unlike Ike and aether on the edge can be stopped by D3's up b and Ike's up b is too laggy to catch him.

This matchup is very hard.

 

[smashkng]

DDD's mobility is pretty terrible. Ike has a much better horizonal aerial movement than DDD has and even on the ground Ike's mobility and jab are both faster than Dedede. Ike really likes the terrible DDD mobility, it makes it super hard to hit Ike out of his aerials during their start-up like you can do with fast characters pretty easily. If you really think DDD's aerials are that much faster, Ike's Bair is very fast and beats DDD's Bair and in the front DDD's Fair is just as slow with less range and with more landing lag.
The reason of why DDD is pretty easy to edge guard with Ike is that his recovery is so slow (giving him time to throw out his long, disjointed moves), DDD is such a ****ing huge target and his recovery is so predictable, while Ike has a ton of moves that hit DDD out of up b, like Fair and Usmash (if DDD is close to the stage or aims to it) to cover a ton of DDD's recovery options at the same time. Just watch Ryo vs Seibrik's DDD. It's like Ryo actually edge guarded Seibrik better than viceversa. And DDD's Up b edge guard? WTF? You just risk getting caught by Ike's Up b which lives DDD in the worst position ever. And really Waddle Dees do nothing it's so easy to air dodge and DDD lags a lot after throwing one which combined with his like worst mobility in the game doesn't give him time to edge guard Ike. It's extremely hard to throw it without the Ike being unable to react to that and even then it neither gimps nor deals any significant damage.

 

[Alphicans]

My point is that Diddy hard counters G&W. The match up is so bad that Diddy can continue to trip G&W with the same banana just by jumping and fast fall instant throwing it back at him.

Can I have confirmation on this, and a video of it happening where the GaW isn't being ********? I've never seen this, it has never happened to me and I seriously doubt it's possible. GaWs trip isn't even the worst in the game I am pretty sure, and I've never seen this done to any other character.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jorjtwRq-kA

 

[phi1ny3]

In D3's defense, CO18 messed up several CGs, not something you should do against Ike lol.

 

[Doc King]

DDD's mobility is pretty terrible. Ike has a much better horizonal aerial movement than DDD has and even on the ground Ike's mobility and jab are both faster than Dedede. Ike really likes the terrible DDD mobility, it makes it super hard to hit Ike out of his aerials during their start-up like you can do with fast characters pretty easily. If you really think DDD's aerials are that much faster, Ike's Bair is very fast and beats DDD's Bair and in the front DDD's Fair is just as slow with less range and with more landing lag.
The reason of why DDD is pretty easy to edge guard with Ike is that his recovery is so slow (giving him time to throw out his long, disjointed moves), DDD is such a ****ing huge target and his recovery is so predictable, while Ike has a ton of moves that hit DDD out of up b, like Fair and Usmash (if DDD is close to the stage or aims to it) to cover a ton of DDD's recovery options at the same time. Just watch Ryo vs Seibrik's DDD. It's like Ryo actually edge guarded Seibrik better than viceversa. And DDD's Up b edge guard? WTF? You just risk getting caught by Ike's Up b which lives DDD in the worst position ever. And really Waddle Dees do nothing it's so easy to air dodge and DDD lags a lot after throwing one which combined with his like worst mobility in the game doesn't give him time to edge guard Ike. It's extremely hard to throw it without the Ike being unable to react to that and even then it neither gimps nor deals any significant damage.

Ike's jab is faster
D3's f tilt is faster
D3's d tilt is faster
D3's up tilt is faster
Ike's f smash is slightly faster than D3's f smash
D3's up smash is faster
Ike's d smash is literally twice as laggy as D3's d smash
D3's nair has much less ending lag than Ike's
D3's fair is faster
D3's bair and Ike's have pretty much the same starting lag, but Ike has a crap load of ending lag
D3's up air is faster
D3's dair is faster
Ike is slightly faster in running speed
D3 is very slightly faster in walking
Ike is faster in air speed
D3 is faster in fast falling speed
D3 has a D3 shuffle and it can work well on ice
Ike's side b can get punished a lot by ending lag

D3 is much faster than Ike.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Can I have confirmation on this, and a video of it happening where the GaW isn't being ********? I've never seen this, it has never happened to me and I seriously doubt it's possible. GaWs trip isn't even the worst in the game I am pretty sure, and I've never seen this done to any other character.

His trip animation may not be the worst in the game, but he does have one of the worst rolls in the game which makes it so he really can't escape the second banana throw.

 

[Alphicans]

Oh I didn't realize you were unaware that GaW could just get up to upB, which is by far his best option, and if diddy isn't in range to smash attack or grab, he won't be getting a punish off if GaW did this.

Honestly, what GaW would choose to roll?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

*pops in thinking he can seriously discuss his character's MUs*

*sees Doc King posting and people using the chance to bash on Dedede*

God I hate Doc King.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Oh I didn't realize you were unaware that GaW could just get up to upB, which is by far his best option, and if diddy isn't in range to smash attack or grab, he won't be getting a punish off if GaW did this.

He has to get up before he can do this and he'll get hit by the banana before he can get up

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Do Puff players ever use her DACUS?

Others do, I personally never use the move.

I thought drillrest was a viable KO move, because you could follow the opponent's sdi when you dair them.

If they SDI out, it leads to a grab/utilt/fsmash if you bait a spot dodge/etc...

If they SDI slightly, you can still rest but if they are holding shield they'll power shield it.

If they don't SDI, or they trip, you get a rest.

I get most of my drillrests when people spotdodge the first half of the dair.

 

[Doc King]

*pops in thinking he can seriously discuss his character's MUs*

*sees Doc King posting and people using the chance to bash on Dedede*

God I hate Doc King.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Psst Jebus

Getups have invincibility

GaW has a good getup.


Also I use Puff's DACUS purely to trap landings.


Also I always forget I can just get up from a trip, without rolling or attacking.

I should do that more.

 

[Alphicans]

Omg Jebus, getup to upB is so hard to punish... If get up to upB works to get out of snake's dthrow, I am pretty sure diddy won't be getting in a second banana throw.

Plus what dirt said.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Puffs dacus is surpringly useful.


Ya'll will see at APEX

 

[da K.I.D.]

Lucario doesn't hard counter sonic.

If he doesn't -3 it's probably a really stupidly hard -2.

The only matchups in the game harder for sonic than lucario are olimar and MK.

Lucario vs. Yoshi. I know Lucario hard counters Yoshi. For Sonic, I was just going by what the match up chart said

What kind of tools does Ike have against D3 (Jabs and some spacing? Not enough tools imo). Ike is like the only character D3 actually outspeeds. Pretty much all of D3's air attacks are faster than Ikes and some ground attacks too and also grabs and throws. D3 has more to Ike than chaingrabs and getting gimped like D3 has good options to punish Ike's side B (Which is like the only fast thing going for him) like waddle dee throw and swallow. You could probably camp this guy with waddle dee throw. D3 also has a halberd lock on the 2nd stage on the edges. Ike has good range to prevent grabs, but it's not that hard getting a grab. D3 can edge guard Ike pretty well like his waddles can stop his side b and he can like f smash out of his aether. I can't see how Ike can edge guard D3 well at all. D3 can like fly in the air unlike Ike and aether on the edge can be stopped by D3's up b and Ike's up b is too laggy to catch him.
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jorjtwRq-kA

Good looks mink.


Just in case people (Doc King and Jebus) didnt see this the fire time around.

this thread is full of people talking about characters they main and comparing them to characters they know nothing about. which results in a ton of misinformation...


everyone needs to stop saying thing without backing it up. and ESPECIALLY dont say things about characters that you dont have a solid base of information on. since mains of every character frequent this thread and you WILL be exposed.

Just because you main a character doesnt mean you know the high level practicalities of every matchup. NOR does it mean that you know any other character well enough to understand what they can feasibly do to your character.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Omg Jebus, getup to upB is so hard to punish... If get up to upB works to get out of snake's dthrow, I am pretty sure diddy won't be getting in a second banana throw.

Plus what dirt said.

Even if that did work (which I doubt it does 100% of the time), it could just be baited and punished.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dude freaking try it. Go into training mode rest with jiggs, then try to kill with Sheik. I'll give you a hint the best move to use is fully charged second hit fsmash (Usmash can't tipper).

I did, lol. u-smash is like, 65% and D-smash is about 75ish

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ike's jab is faster

this is the only thing that matter in that matchup.

Even if that did work (which I doubt it does 100% of the time), it could just be baited and punished.

...

game and watches up b is really hard to punish, and even so, taking a fair or up air or what have you is better than being banana locked into a smash attack....

 

[Ussi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jorjtwRq-kA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XirafvuVXiA

a more recent Ike vs DDD set

and this would come after that set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-oOVA41QeE&feature=related but only game 1 is DDD

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's the infinite that makes it so hard.

D3 also has a good d tilt followup and can kill him pretty early for a heavy character.

I Hu-... Wha...
D3 doesn't have an infinite on Yoshi, Just the normal CG he has on basically everyone else in the game...

His trip animation may not be the worst in the game, but he does have one of the worst rolls in the game which makes it so he really can't escape the second banana throw.

You must not know about Yoshi's fairly bad roll then...

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Puff is too good for silly D3 chaingrabs.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

game and watches up b is really hard to punish, and even so, taking a fair or up air or what have you is better than being banana locked into a smash attack....

I am about 90% sure that the lock works and this is still a great option since it leave G&W with very few safe options

 

[da K.I.D.]

I am about 90% sure that the lock works and this is still a great option since it leave G&W with very few safe options

You should come back when you are 100% sure and have tournament video evidence to back what you say.

 

[Chuee]

Puff is too good for silly D3 chaingrabs.

too bad jiggz is still terrible

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You should come back when you are 100% sure and have tournament video evidence to back what you say.

I do have videos but they never get uploaded. Nobody wants to upload a 7 1/2 min match that pretty much nobody is going to watch.

 

[Z'zgashi]

You must not know about Yoshi's fairly bad roll then...

Not if our shield gets hit first


Also, what Slush said is true. D3 only has the normal CG on us which can then lead to his usual stuff, he doesnt have anything special on us.

 

[Alphicans]

Even if that did work (which I doubt it does 100% of the time), it could just be baited and punished.

First off, I am 100% sure the lock doesn't work. There is nothing complex about it, and if it worked every GaW would know about it, and we'd see it constantly vs not only GaW but vs a ton of characters. If you ever got it to work you played vs someone who is dumb.

I;ll gladly eat my words if you present frame data, and it working in practice, but until then stop talking as if this works.

Now to address the quote... Think about what you're saying. If you're in the position where you can't smash attack or grab me, you're obviously pretty far away, meaning even if you predict or bait the upB, you won't get there in time to punish.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Apparently ddd can do the standing pivot grab infinite to yoshi, which is probably what doc king was talking, however, in true doc king fashion, hes relying way too much on miniscule aspects that either dont matter or are too inconsistent to be cared about atm.

And Jebus, everybody is going to watch a match that has some kind of new technology that alters a matchup in it. I understand that you might not see that since http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9CyEvg_BQ is the only vid anybody has ever seen of you. But its true.

 

[Doc King]

The only matchups in the game harder for sonic than lucario are olimar and MK.







Good looks mink.


Just in case people (Doc King and Jebus) didnt see this the fire time around.


Just because you main a character doesnt mean you know the high level practicalities of every matchup. NOR does it mean that you know any other character well enough to understand what they can feasibly do to your character.

That D3 didn't play the matchup too well. I can see what you guys mean by the aether thing and I think it's what makes Ike have at least something on D3. lol Ike actually had a hard time with D3's waddle dees.

this is the only thing that matter in that matchup.


...

game and watches up b is really hard to punish, and even so, taking a fair or up air or what have you is better than being banana locked into a smash attack....

Are you stupid? All moves should matter because if you're just gonna jab, any person can just easily predict it. D3 could just probably f tilt it or something.

I Hu-... Wha...
D3 doesn't have an infinite on Yoshi, Just the normal CG he has on basically everyone else in the game...


You must not know about Yoshi's fairly bad roll then...

D3 has an infinite where you d throw and then dash forward and then dash backward in a dash dance and then you pivot grab. You have to get a good timing (Not godly) and this can be pretty useful if you get the timing. So you're wrong.

Puff is too good for silly D3 chaingrabs.

D3 is too good at wombo comboing puff with d throw to Donkey Punch, DK D smash, Yoshi's up smash, Falco's lazer lock, etc.

Not if our shield gets hit first


Also, what Slush said is true. D3 only has the normal CG on us which can then lead to his usual stuff, he doesnt have anything special on us.

Read what I posted.

Apparently ddd can do the standing pivot grab infinite to yoshi, which is probably what doc king was talking, however, in true doc king fashion, hes relying way too much on miniscule aspects that either dont matter or are too inconsistent to be cared about atm.

And Jebus, everybody is going to watch a match that has some kind of new technology that alters a matchup in it. I understand that you might not see that since http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z9CyEvg_BQ is the only vid anybody has ever seen of you. But its true.

I was talking about dash dance pivot grab where you don't need godly reflexes.

 

[dean.]

Man imma go ask Aerodrome to see if dash dance pivot grab infinites actually exist.

I mean Doc King, no offense intended but no one will really believe you about them if you have no videos of them or no analysis of the frame data, especially for one with your reputation around these boards.

 

[Delta-cod]

The infinite doesn't matter at all until it becomes a common occurance, and a consistently proven one at that. People will give 0 ****s about that infinite until there is high level tournament evidence of it making a difference.