Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[smashkng]

That sounds pretty accurate in my book. Ike can compete against MK because of his range - if it weren't for his range he wouldn't be able to.

He can barely compete too bad MK has that dash attack and dash grab OoS and too bad MK has Shuttle Loop, Nair and Dair offstage which makes this matchup ridiculously hard. Ike can just hope that MK runs into anything powerful Ike has or just hope the MK is much worse than the Ike.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How does that refute my point at all? His range is literally the one thing that keeps the match-up from being impossible to handle.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike vs MK is basically "Thank goodness I'm faster in the air than him and have more range, please let this jab hit so I can actually wrack up damage, uh oh I'm off stage I'm dead aren't I?"

Good thing that MU is/will be gone at tournaments that matter now eh?

EDIT: not refuting the point. If anything I'm kinda agreeing with it. Range is one of the few things Ike has over MK, and it's a rather important thing. Jab, Grab based combos and KOing power are the other things.

 

[smashkng]

I disagree about the grab based combos. While the grab release Dash Attack and Bthrow to Dash attack are indeed true combos, they don't really put MK in any bad position and it only kills if the MK fails to DI it (maybe at like 170% or something but then the MK should have already died far earlier). MK just doesn't have any bad positions. MK's Dthrow also puts Ike in a pretty limited option like 50-50 depending if the MK can read your DI and at the same time Dthrow deals 11% damage which is pretty legit just like his other throws except his Fthrow are. But I agree with your other statements Niddo.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Guaranteed damage> nearly guaranteed damage.

It's not about KOing him off of a throw, it's about landing some decent damage. It also resets the situation to neutral, which is nicer than a lot of alternatives.

 

[Ussi]

That sounds pretty accurate in my book. Ike can compete against MK because of his range - if it weren't for his range he wouldn't be able to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwYPPRgvEBw#t=9m40s


MK shouldn't lose to Ike ever when he knows the MU

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Aero, I don't think Doc King understands that data you just showed.

EDIT: NOOOO WHY DID MY PREMIUM END T_T

Yeah... I don't think he does.

You just dash forward and back in a dash dancing to a pivot grab right after you d throw. It takes some timing, but it can get mastered if correctly timed.

I know what's he's talking about, let me explain this to you guys in detail.

When D3 d throws puff, Puff can't DI. However, Puff is just able to air dodge before landing which kills the ability to combo. However, we can still do some things with it like tech chase without puff being able to air dodge when down thrown on an upward slope. We can do that smashville combo on the platform where we can down throw and we can even get a d tilt for a finisher. We can do the d throws on the ice in ps2.

RE: dash dance infinite, I can't do it in frame advance soooo...

RE: Jiggrypuff combos, noooooooooooooo it doesn't work that way.

Jigglypuff can air dodge and land on the ground and shield before you can do anything. It's a techchase at best, but it's a REALLY bad one.

Better off pummeling Jiggs once and b throwing her for 20%.

 

[-LzR-]

And having a followup on such a ****ty character matters as much as Mart being better on Melee or Brawl.

 

[Doc King]

Yeah... I don't think he does.



RE: dash dance infinite, I can't do it in frame advance soooo...

RE: Jiggrypuff combos, noooooooooooooo it doesn't work that way.

Jigglypuff can air dodge and land on the ground and shield before you can do anything. It's a techchase at best, but it's a REALLY bad one.

Better off pummeling Jiggs once and b throwing her for 20%.

Who did you attempt to dash dance pivot grab on?

I just said Puff can air dodge and land on the ground on flat stages. Slopes are a different story though, along with the other stuff I just mentioned.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Who did you attempt to dash dance pivot grab on?

I just said Puff can air dodge and land on the ground on flat stages. Slopes are a different story though, along with the other stuff I just mentioned.

Yoshi.

I buffered a dash in the opposite direction of Yoshi, then pivot grabbed.

Am I doing it right? It seems like the quickest way to get a pivot grab out.

 

[Doc King]

Yoshi.

I buffered a dash in the opposite direction of Yoshi, then pivot grabbed.

Am I doing it right? It seems like the quickest way to get a pivot grab out.

You forgot to dash forward before dashing away from your opponent.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Dash forward?

But why? Dashing back and pivot grabbing doesn't work, I don't see how dashing back, then forward and pivot grabbing would work either.

Eh, I'll try it.

Edit: Tried it and tripped immediately. lawl

Edit 2: Still not seeing how this works. I foxtrotted behind for two frames, then foxtrotted in the other direction (toward Yoshi) for one frame and pivot grabbed on the next. And... Yoshi was about 50 thousand metres away.

 

[Alphicans]

It's dashforward, then back to pivot grab. That's how I understood it.

 

[Doc King]

Dash forward?

But why? Dashing back and pivot grabbing doesn't work, I don't see how dashing back, then forward and pivot grabbing would work either.

Eh, I'll try it.

Edit: Tried it and tripped immediately. lawl

Edit 2: Still not seeing how this works. I foxtrotted behind for two frames, then foxtrotted in the other direction (toward Yoshi) for one frame and pivot grabbed on the next. And... Yoshi was about 50 thousand metres away.

Here's a fact about it during it's discovery time:

This was originally discovered by me trying to do the buffered pivot grab on Bowser. Which I was able to do a couple of times and was trying to learn it. During the process, I thought about doing another method and I thought that dash dancing forward and then back into a pivot grab would make a good method and it worked on Bowser. I also found other things while trying this on slopes and stuff.

If you're a beginner at this, start with bowser and then move on to DK and then to Yoshi.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I'm using frame advance so I don't need to be an expert...

 

[Doc King]

I'm using frame advance so I don't need to be an expert...

Did you get it to work yet?

I can give you some replays of me doing it so you can get an understanding on how this works.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

That would be good if possible.

 

[Haze~]

Even if the mu can be tough for Ike Seibrik outplayed him which if Ryo would do and is capable of then the stake would flip

 

[Ussi]

Even if the mu can be tough for Ike Seibrik outplayed him which if Ryo would do and is capable of then the stake would flip

You don't have to be a pro MK to beat a pro Ike

 

[Z'zgashi]

Id be interested to see how in the world D3 has anything like that on Yoshi. Yoshi was luckily blessed with some of the safest release/escape/etc animations in the game, so I dont see how anything can really be abused unless you can do it to pretty much everyone.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I simply can't wait to Never see D3 use the Infinite on Yoshi.

 

[Z'zgashi]

lol, it'll just be another one of those MU's like Wario vs. Wolf. 'Well it WOULD be bad, but no Wario can actually do the CG on Wolf so it actually isnt'.

 

[Haze~]

um, well thats true i supose

 

[Chuee]

lol, it'll just be another one of those MU's like Wario vs. Wolf. 'Well it WOULD be bad, but no Wario can actually do the CG on Wolf so it actually isnt'.

but there are actually wario's who can do it
and I'd think that Wario's dthrow CG is easier than D3's omgwtfdashturnaroundpivotgrabsuperinfinite

 

[infiniteV115]

What's so hard about the Wario CG? Am I wrong, or is it just a buffered turn around grab?

 

[zmx]

What's so hard about the Wario CG? Am I wrong, or is it just a buffered turn around grab?

To ensure they cannot get out of it, indeed you need to buffer it.

And like with any buffering, there is a chance you will mess up. Considering no one practices Wario`s Chaingrab (though I think they should considering it works on high tiers too like falco between certain percents) I can see even the best Wario players messing it up.

In fact, I have yet to see a single high level match with wario +wolf(or any other CGable character) where chain grabbing was even attempted frequently.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I saw a Wario player chaingrab Falco a couple of months ago.

 

[Z'zgashi]

but there are actually wario's who can do it
and I'd think that Wario's dthrow CG is easier than D3's omgwtfdashturnaroundpivotgrabsuperinfinite

True, I was just using that example cuz I remembered Seagull talk about it extremely recently.

 

[infiniteV115]

Well..when Bassem came down to Toronto (I think this was on July 31st, cause the tourney was called Showdown in Downtown 2: inb4august) I saw him doing it pretty consistently...I think

 

[zmx]

Definitively something Warios need to do more. It`s free damage, there`s no reason not do it.

It is almost like they do not want be like falco lol.

Also is a fsmash/dsmash/fart out of it a true combo or is it avoidable?
Because if it is not that is even more free damage once you know that the percent it is possible on the character is up.
It would even be a solid kill option on everyone it works on (fart). In falco in particular this would work wonders and the matchup ratio would need to be reconsidered.

 

[1PokeMastr]

Wario D-Throw CG on Falco goes from 40 - 110%, You can Buffer an Fsmash and it can and will hit you.
Though, has never happened to me.
Wolf goes from 40 - 120, may even start earlier/ end later.
Fox goes more than both.
Dk goes 0 - 110 -> 120 - 160.
Though, you can always F-Throw at the end to try and catch some downwards inputs.

 

[phi1ny3]

To ensure they cannot get out of it, indeed you need to buffer it.

And like with any buffering, there is a chance you will mess up. Considering no one practices Wario`s Chaingrab (though I think they should considering it works on high tiers too like falco between certain percents) I can see even the best Wario players messing it up.

In fact, I have yet to see a single high level match with wario +wolf(or any other CGable character) where chain grabbing was even attempted frequently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXfac1cMNXA#t=1m24s

It's not top play, but it's pretty good

 

[Seagull Joe]

What's so hard about the Wario CG? Am I wrong, or is it just a buffered turn around grab?

You have to do it in a small frame window. 's dthrow is weird in that it's long and the timing is very weird. It's hard to do.

He can Fthrow out of the Cg, but it won't always kill. I saw Kain live a fresh Fthrow at 230%.

 

[Kuro~]

It's not that hard with time put it in. Not at all. Granted it's not pikachu/falco easy...but it's pretty damn reasonable unlike say...ddd pivot infinite.

 

[zmx]

Wario D-Throw CG on Falco goes from 40 - 110%, You can Buffer an Fsmash and it can and will hit you.
Though, has never happened to me.
Wolf goes from 40 - 120, may even start earlier/ end later.
Fox goes more than both.
Dk goes 0 - 110 -> 120 - 160.
Though, you can always F-Throw at the end to try and catch some downwards inputs.

If this is the case, why on earth do Warios not attempt this every time they face falco? If you are right this means potentially if they get grabbed at 40% near the edge, you can CG them to around a hundred and then finish them with a Fsmash. Falco isn`t exactly heavy and the Fsmash will be completely fresh.

In other words Wario has a 40 to death, unescapable combo on falco. And yet it`s never seen among the top top players.

I can`t be the only that thinks something is wrong with this picture.

 

[infiniteV115]

You have to do it in a small frame window. 's dthrow is weird in that it's long and the timing is very weird. It's hard to do.

He can Fthrow out of the Cg, but it won't always kill. I saw Kain live a fresh Fthrow at 230%.

I don't understand, if it's buffered, isn't it just going to be in the same sized frame window as...any other buffered CG? (ie 10 frame window, cause that's the buffering window)

Edit:

I can`t be

zmx, where the hell did you get that apostrophe?
can't
See the difference?

Double edit: Oh..top left of the keyboard...didn't know that existed
Or, should I say...didn`t

 

[zmx]

This apostrophe for some reason has replaced the usual one when I press that key. It`s really annoying, I need to get it fixed. It`s the reason I purposely avoided contractions.

Also, yes but knowing when to buffer, when the attack ends I think is tricky.

 

[infiniteV115]

Weird apostrophe for top tier
```````

 

[KuroganeHammer]

It's called a grave accent guys.

unlike say...ddd pivot infinite.

I lulz'd.

 

[Scatz]

Doc King, you're still trying to use the buffered pivot grab as methods where D3 has advantages over characters? It's not that practical at all. Sorry bro, but you need to fix your thoughts before using a move not even common in matchup discussions.

Also, get your information right. For the move to be guaranteed, you have to do:

Reverse DP motion
Dash Forward
Grab

And that's all before you gain control of your character (the grab can possible be a few frames off). 10 frames to buffer that is very unlikely.