Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Maharba the Mystic]

marth main and pit mains this is directed towards you.

after watching footage of marths vs pits and having experiance in the MU myself, does anyone else think marth is actually harder than wario for pit? also would it be hard enough to warrent a -2 or do both sides think it is -1 still?


@snakes

aside from MVD, which other snakes who see the MU as even? im kinda tired of seeing it as a +1 on the chart when every snake and pit i've ever talked with and played (snakes like fogo and jrugs and MVD when we met at whobo3) all say it is an even MU.

(i still lol about how it used to be labled pit's advantage back in the 08-09 days. we didn't even know about the cg for a while so don't see where that logic even came from)

namesearch krystedez koolaid ally fatal kiraflax and biscuit since i know yall are all pretty experianced in the MU.


wow i just noticed the top THREE pit (koolaid kiraflax krystedez) players' names all start with the letter K..... am i in a conspiracy main group and don't know it?

 

[Fuujin]

A lot of people talking about Sheik+Zelda never mention how easier it is for Zelda to get the KO on fat characters, why is that? Shiek+Zelda doesn't mean Only Sheik + only Zelda

>>Implying those fat characters have to approach.
>>Implying Zelda has any reliable kill move that doesn't involve the opponent approaching her.

Sheilda is using both characters to their best ability. If that means that switching to Zelda in a match up is a bad idea, then Sheilda is just solo Sheik for that match up. Saying that you're forced to switch is like saying Ganon is forced to use utilt because it's available to him.

So can this not be said?
"Samus->ZSS is using both characters to their best ability. If that means that using Samus in a match up is a bad idea, then Samus->ZSS is just solo ZSS for that match up. Saying that you're forced to switch is like saying Ganon is forced to use utilt because it's available to him."

Who was saying that Sheilda is forced to switch? o_O

Anyway, I personally believe that the point of Match-up charts is to spread knowledge as simply as possible. Adding Samus/ZSS as a single slot would be pointless as knowing such a character's match-ups would serve no purpose to the target audience of the chart (competitive players).

...and adding Sheilda served purpose for competetive players?
When all of the match ups are just copied from Sheiks except for like 3?
Even when one of them is wrong.

Any argument used for or against ZSS can be directly applied to Samus->ZSS.
Just sayin.

 

[Flayl]

>>Implying those fat characters have to approach.
>>Implying Zelda has any reliable kill move that doesn't involve the opponent approaching her.

Well if they are above in % because you tilt locked them with Sheik yes, they have to approach. Really narrow-minded thinking here.

 

[C.J.]

Imo ZSS/Samus shouldn't have a combined spot ala Sheilda simply because she can't go back and forth at will. Example: Say it's better to use Zelda vs Pikachu up until you reach 50% or whenever the CG stops working. Afterwards it's better to use Sheik because Sheik is sooo much of better character than Zelda. Now you die, you have the ability to go back to zelda again! ZSS/Samus can't do this (unless you wanna turn on smashballs! )

 

[Fuujin]

Imo ZSS/Samus shouldn't have a combined spot ala Sheilda simply because she can't go back and forth at will. Example: Say it's better to use Zelda vs Pikachu up until you reach 50% or whenever the CG stops working. Afterwards it's better to use Sheik because Sheik is sooo much of better character than Zelda. Now you die, you have the ability to go back to zelda again! ZSS/Samus can't do this (unless you wanna turn on smashballs! )

Soooo for one match-up where it's better to use Zelda so she can eat damage till a certain percent a whole entire character was added to the tier list?

 

[C.J.]

Soooo for one match-up where it's better to use Zelda so she can eat damage till a certain percent a whole entire character was added to the tier list?

vOv
At that point it's all subjective. IMO, yes it is. It's specific, but it's relevant. Also, I guess using Zelda vs IC until sopo can't CG you by himself would have use, maybe.

But that doesn't matter, it's specific and has a use and can be important, no matter how rare it is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

vOv
At that point it's all subjective. IMO, yes it is. It's specific, but it's relevant. Also I guess using Zelda vs IC until sopo can't CG you by himself would have use, maybe.

But that doesn't matter, it's specific and has a use and can be important, no matter how rare it is.

This. Deal with it.

 

[Meru.]

Well, I agree with Fuujin. Tbh, I see no use to add Sheik/Zelda simply because Zelda's part is negligible in both theory and practice. The only slightly valuable thing that Zelda can do, is eating 50% in one match-up. Other than that, Sheik does everything better. I'd rather remove Sheik/Zelda and assume that Sheik may also use DownB, although she rarely will.

Sheik/Zelda may imply roughly equal usage, it's supposed to be a combination after all, but sadly it's far from equal. This is evident from the match-up numbers which have barely changed (if we can spreak from any) and their tier list positions of Sheilda and Sheik, who are nearly next to them other (I have no clue as to why Luigi is between them).

 

[Ghostbone]

there isn't a single MU Samus does better than ZSS

Ganon maybe? Zair destoys him

 

[C.J.]

(I have no clue as to why Luigi is between them).

I agree completely. He's far worse than both of them.

 

[Judo777]

Well, I agree with Fuujin. Tbh, I see no use to add Sheik/Zelda simply because Zelda's part is negligible in both theory and practice. The only slightly valuable thing that Zelda can do, is eating 50% in one match-up. Other than that, Sheik does everything better. I'd rather remove Sheik/Zelda and assume that Sheik may also use DownB, although she rarely will.

Sheik/Zelda may imply roughly equal usage, it's supposed to be a combination after all, but sadly it's far from equal. This is evident from the match-up numbers which have barely changed (if we can spreak from any) and their tier list positions of Sheilda and Sheik, who are nearly next to them other (I have no clue as to why Luigi is between them).

Zelda is valuable in 4 MU's total used in conjunction in with Sheik. She is arguably valuable in a few more.

 

[phi1ny3]

ICs are really hard for sheik, they still beat Zelda, but it's not where almost every move can get you grabbed and that even the sopo CG takes you to like 80% lol.

D3 is a matter of preference from what I've seen, it's usually made a little easier w/ zelda because w/ sheik you usually have to either make a hard read to kill (and risk taking a lot of damage each time you don't make a right guess, as sheik's options from D3's tech chase are really bad and it's the easiest way he can rack damage on her besides offstage), or have to rack him up to like 200% before your safe kill moves become an option lol.

 

[smashkng]

Id say Oli beats Ganon worse than ICies due to the 'Nana being stupid and not listening' factor, and the 'we rely on chain grabs between two characters that both have their own individual trip chance, so we trip and screw up the CG', etc.

Ganon has amazing options out of side b against Olimar though. I've heard that DLA has beaten Hilt's Olimar in tourney using Ganon during the entire set. Unfortunately the matches weren't recorded.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...How did Ganon manage to land a hit on Olimar, though? xD

 

[smashkng]

...How did Ganon manage to land a hit on Olimar, though? xD

Well, we're not robots so Ganon can still hit Olimar.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't even think Zelda should be her own entry. Choosing Zelda doesn't eliminate the option of switching, it's always there. Having two slots for a character with access to all of the same options doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Zelda/Sheik should really be the only entry.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't even think Zelda should be her own entry. Choosing Zelda doesn't eliminate the option of switching, it's always there. Having two slots for a character with access to all of the same options doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. Zelda/Sheik should really be the only entry.

But people want to play Zelda in low tier events

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Ganon has amazing options out of side b against Olimar though. I've heard that DLA has beaten Hilt's Olimar in tourney using Ganon during the entire set. Unfortunately the matches weren't recorded.

It was two games, he beat me game two with Ganon and game three with MK. But yeah, he did take the set.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But people want to play Zelda in low tier events

I don't think Zelda really qualifies for low-tier events (based only on the fact that she and Sheik are mid tier not low and are one character not two), but low-tier events are side-events anyway and can have rules that allow you to play her, it isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Tesh]

I don't feel playstyles should be ranked on the tier list either. Sopo, Nolimar and bad MKs don't have their own entries.

B-free MK would probably be mid tier.

 

[Shaya]

dash grab, dash attack, forward roll, ftilt and his aerials is all he needs in a lot of match ups.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think Zelda really qualifies for low-tier events (based only on the fact that she and Sheik are mid tier not low and are one character not two), but low-tier events are side-events anyway and can have rules that allow you to play her, it isn't that big of a deal.

I agree, but that's the reasoning.

It's like having nana-less Diddy in mid tier....

 

[Judo777]

I don't feel playstyles should be ranked on the tier list either. Sopo, Nolimar and bad MKs don't have their own entries.

B-free MK would probably be mid tier.

yea not even close. MK's a moves are why hes good. His ftilt and his aerials invalidate like 70% of the cast.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

^This

Nado and SL are just icing on the cake, really.

 

[Cassio]

Most of the cast isnt high tier, lol.

 

[Steam]

well nado and SL are probably his two best moves... but they don't fall into any category... they're just like... here have a few broken moves.

but B-free MK definitely wouldn't be the best lol.

 

[Tesh]

I guess he could still be as good as like DDD,GnW, ZSS.

 

[Laem]

Wut
B less mk would still be terrific, top 5 at least.

 

[Ripple]

his a moves may inavlidate 70% of the cast but tornado alone invalidates the other 30%

that's 100%, he invalidates himself

 

[Tesh]

Wut
B less mk would still be terrific, top 5 at least.

prove it, I challenge any MK to make a performance fitting a top tier without B. That means no B AT ALL.

Then again MK with B is basically a slower flying marth...

 

[Judo777]

prove it, I challenge any MK to make a performance fitting a top tier without B. That means no B AT ALL.

Then again MK with B is basically a slower flying marth...

With faster moves, longer range on the ground and STILL a better recovery lol

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Err, regarding ZSS, http://www.serebii.net/ssbb/characters/zerosuitsamus.shtml seems to suggest you can do utaunt dtaunt utaunt quickly to transform from samus to zss. IDK about ZSS -> Samus though.

Just throwing that out.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea you can, but you can't switch back to Samus.

 

[Laem]

prove it, I challenge any MK to make a performance fitting a top tier without B. That means no B AT ALL.

Then again MK with B is basically a slower flying marth...

There's plenty of matches on youtube of top mk's who in that specific match barely used b moves and still dominated. No I'm not gonna specifically find em for ya.

 

[Steam]

There's plenty of matches on youtube of top mk's who in that specific match barely used b moves and still dominated. No I'm not gonna specifically find em for ya.

well the mere presence of tornado and SL causes an opponent to respect MK a loooot more. you'd have to play an opponent who is aware MK can't do that.

 

[Ghostbone]

well the mere presence of tornado and SL causes an opponent to respect MK a loooot more. you'd have to play an opponent who is aware MK can't do that.

It's similar to Ice Climbers, sure they can (and do occasionally) win without chain-grabbing, but only because of the way the opponent must play to avoid it.

 

[Tesh]

Yea, pretty much that. ICs is basically free juggles cuz everyone just platform camps em.

There are alot of things you can use against MK knowing he can't just nado through 90% of your options, or shuttle loop during a juggle when you try to avoid uair. Also, his recovery would only be like "pit" level good. Strong distance, but not brokenly unlimited. Good walling and spikes/semi spikes can gimp an MK without specials.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

About that ZSS-Falco match-up...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Yr2pbCvTs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysQ6xJ3Zmo0

 

[Tesh]

Looks like a really tricky ZSS styling on a clueless Falco to me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

homeboy shadow caught that updated download on game 3 tho.