#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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- Jun 15, 2008
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- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- NNID
- RedRyu_Smash
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- 0344-9312-3352
Hopeful by December I believe.
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Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
- Status
Roller
Smash Legend
LOL@ICs vs puff being even.
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
I agree. It's +2 puff.
Roller
Smash Legend
ob v
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Again: Why wouldn't it be?
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Why not? xD
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
Because ICs have more than just grab.
Most of the time.
Most of the time.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
They have... Uair/Bair/Usmash... That is literally it, and it is not enough to say that they squarely beat ICs.
Uair isn't that effective because of Puff's aerial mobility. Bair keeps Puff away, but it can be countered fairly, same with Usmash.
Then you have to take into account Puff's dair which won't get shield grabbed and separates the Climbers, her ability to time out Sopo with ease and the possibility of timing out dual climbers...
Seems pretty even to me.
Tell me something, naysayers. Do you disagree with me because of preconceived notions that Puff is bad, or because you legitimately feel my brief summary of the MU above isn't correct?
How can you say DAir will reliably seperate the ICs if for that to happen you have to DAir in between the two, which puts you at risk of getting UAir'd? If you were spacing DAir to hit only the IC in front I would agree with you (that you can avoid UAir)
That's just an inconsistency I spotted, I'm not going to pretend I care all that much about the matchup
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Why would Puff need to kill them?
Flayl: How will you get uair'd if you are hitting both of them? xD And just hitting one IC with dair still "separates" them.
Flayl: How will you get uair'd if you are hitting both of them? xD And just hitting one IC with dair still "separates" them.
puff is only overrated by puff players
Z'zgashi
Smash Legend
Not near as overrated as D3. D3 is terrible, low tier.
Roller
Smash Legend
hammers>jiggs feet
I don't see any tools Puff has that any hightier doesn't. High mobility doesn't guarantee a win. Just look at how Wario doesn't eat ICs for breakfast even though he is the most mobile character in the game in air and has a similar awesome dair.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
If Puff was as bad as everyone says she is, I wouldn't be able to beat people with her after they have had over a year of match-up practice as well as beating people I have only just met.
There is a point where you have to say "Alright, this character doesn't deserve to be in the same tier as Ganondorf".
Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
range....multiple jumps....
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Puff doesn't beat ICs, definitely not.
Puffs range is among the worst in the game. Multiple jumps isn't exclusive to Puff either.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
Puff has horrendous range, yup.
Well, her effective range is good because she is so mobile she can cover the stage pretty well, similar to DK, but her disjoints are TERRIBLE.
Well, her effective range is good because she is so mobile she can cover the stage pretty well, similar to DK, but her disjoints are TERRIBLE.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
D3 is definately not a low tier at all. How is a character with the best chaingrab, spot dodge, pivot grab, vertical survivability, along with having good range and power, combos, finishers, tech chasing, survivability in general a low tier character?
D3 is a good character.
D3 is also the most underrated character.
It seems like it.
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
All i'm going to say is... **** Jigg's pound.. that **** lasts decades
and snake is still the most underrated character.
and snake is still the most underrated character.
Grim Tuesday
Smash Legend
His lack of options in many situations is a weakness other high tiers don't suffer from.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
Lol D3 doesn't lack options than high tiers.
Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
- 7,336
OMG DOC KING SHUT THE HELL UP.
Like seriously, STOP TALKING.
You have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
You're worse than I was when I joined SWF and argued Ganon's MUs.
You talk like we have no weaknesses.
We are SLOW. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. UTilt and DTilt are our fastest moves, and they're frame 8 iirc (I'd have to check), though UTilt does have invincibility, but that's on the initial hit frames and irrelevant. Y'know who else has a fastest ground move hitting on frame 8? Ganondorf. Y'know what frame his next fastest move hits on? 10. Ours? 12. AND IT'S OUR JAB.
We are WEAK IN THE AIR. Just why exactly do you think MK beats us? If you said Nado and Shuttle Loop, YOU'RE WRONG. MK beats us so hard because he has literally no problem getting us into the air, where unless we're there to edgeguard or wall someone out with BAir, we are INCREDIBLY WEAK. And he has no trouble keeping us up there, being relatively fast (WE HAVE THE LOWEST AIRSPEED IN THE GAME), a frame 2 UAir that frametraps, us being hella big, and our only option below us is DAir, which he can airdodge and punish our laggy as hell landing. Because I guarantee you while you are being pressured by Metaknight you WILL NO space the Autocancel right.
MK beats our grab. Most of his ground moves are safe on shield. And by most, I mean the two that matter here, FTilt and DTilt. Getting a grab, which is our primary way of dealing damage, is very hard in this MU.
MK beats our throws. DThrow sucks here. Oh yeah, sure, it can be used for techchase.
Until the MK learns he can DI up and shuttle loop us.
So BThrow will be stale. Or it would if it weren't so hard to grab MK.
Our FTilt, our primary spacing tool, is... wait, that's actually safe on MK's shield. Huh. Perfectly spaced.
UTilt is hard to land at high %s. In my experience, the only times I land it is when the MK gets greedy, like Nadoing me (playing M2K at CoT5, only way I got kills on him was UTilting Nado).
DTilt is passable, but it's hard to edgeguard MK. Shuttle Loop is always a threat against edgeguards.
BAir can keep MK out somewhat, but it's hard to wall out MK when he's that much faster.
I could break down our moves more but it wouldn't be all that useful.
I could break down other MUs but I'm tired.
Like seriously, STOP TALKING.
You have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
You're worse than I was when I joined SWF and argued Ganon's MUs.
You talk like we have no weaknesses.
We are SLOW. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR HEAD. UTilt and DTilt are our fastest moves, and they're frame 8 iirc (I'd have to check), though UTilt does have invincibility, but that's on the initial hit frames and irrelevant. Y'know who else has a fastest ground move hitting on frame 8? Ganondorf. Y'know what frame his next fastest move hits on? 10. Ours? 12. AND IT'S OUR JAB.
We are WEAK IN THE AIR. Just why exactly do you think MK beats us? If you said Nado and Shuttle Loop, YOU'RE WRONG. MK beats us so hard because he has literally no problem getting us into the air, where unless we're there to edgeguard or wall someone out with BAir, we are INCREDIBLY WEAK. And he has no trouble keeping us up there, being relatively fast (WE HAVE THE LOWEST AIRSPEED IN THE GAME), a frame 2 UAir that frametraps, us being hella big, and our only option below us is DAir, which he can airdodge and punish our laggy as hell landing. Because I guarantee you while you are being pressured by Metaknight you WILL NO space the Autocancel right.
MK beats our grab. Most of his ground moves are safe on shield. And by most, I mean the two that matter here, FTilt and DTilt. Getting a grab, which is our primary way of dealing damage, is very hard in this MU.
MK beats our throws. DThrow sucks here. Oh yeah, sure, it can be used for techchase.
Until the MK learns he can DI up and shuttle loop us.
So BThrow will be stale. Or it would if it weren't so hard to grab MK.
Our FTilt, our primary spacing tool, is... wait, that's actually safe on MK's shield. Huh. Perfectly spaced.
UTilt is hard to land at high %s. In my experience, the only times I land it is when the MK gets greedy, like Nadoing me (playing M2K at CoT5, only way I got kills on him was UTilting Nado).
DTilt is passable, but it's hard to edgeguard MK. Shuttle Loop is always a threat against edgeguards.
BAir can keep MK out somewhat, but it's hard to wall out MK when he's that much faster.
I could break down our moves more but it wouldn't be all that useful.
I could break down other MUs but I'm tired.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
Doc King:
D3 is most likely going to be bottom of high tier/top of mid tier next tier list. That's where seemingly the vast majority feels that he belongs.
Accept it. Embrace it. Move on.
D3 is most likely going to be bottom of high tier/top of mid tier next tier list. That's where seemingly the vast majority feels that he belongs.
Accept it. Embrace it. Move on.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Because Dedede's chaingrab is totally better than ICs'
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
LOL! You think D3 is weak in the air? Are you serious? D3 has like one of the best air games ever along with Game and Watch and Wario. Also all you brought up was mk in your argument while mk doesn't matter since he's banned.
D3 is pretty slow, but he's not that slow to compete.
The thing that doesn't make sense is why would D3 all of a sudden become mid tier just because some ppl on SmashBoards think so? Nothing has really happened to make D3 become mid tier. Plus with mk banned, D3 can actually compete well without getting countered hard by mk. If he was legal still then I could probably see how D3 would drop to low high/top mid, but I mean when mk is banned, D3 is gonna be able to use great cps like Rainbow and Brinstar.
Something like ZSS moving above D3 makes sense since ZSS seems to have more to her than D3, but D3 can go above Lucario and maybe Pika. I think he's pretty fine where he is at this point. A great character, but with a few major flaws that prevent him from being a top character.
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
It makes sense to anyone who has been around smashboards longer than you have.
The general public wanted Fox to go up, he went up.
The general public wanted PT to go up, he went up (too high, but then they fixed it two tier lists later, but point still stands)
The general public wanted ROB to go down, he went down.
I can name example after example, but the point is: if the majority of the general public feels strongly about something, more times than not the majority of the BBR feels the same way and it happens. Not always, but most of the time.
D3 is dropping, get used to it. It will be easier once you stop fanboying over D3 like a newbie.
The general public wanted Fox to go up, he went up.
The general public wanted PT to go up, he went up (too high, but then they fixed it two tier lists later, but point still stands)
The general public wanted ROB to go down, he went down.
I can name example after example, but the point is: if the majority of the general public feels strongly about something, more times than not the majority of the BBR feels the same way and it happens. Not always, but most of the time.
D3 is dropping, get used to it. It will be easier once you stop fanboying over D3 like a newbie.
Does anybody have top/high lucas sets they could recommend me? I'm pretty sure he has a crippling weakness nobody takes advantage of (no, I'm not talking about grab release) but I'd like to confirm with actual matches first.
Doc King
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 1,790
It seems like you guys want D3 to go down because you hate this character. Tier list shouldn't be listed on hatred.
Jimmyfosho
Smash Hero
- Status