Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

[Mecakoto]

it's a new technique called "spacing" it was discovered in mexico by TKD it limits your opponents options

Mind at all if I siggy this Mike? I love it. =p

 

[Anth0ny]

it's a new technique called "spacing" it was discovered in mexico by TKD it limits your opponents options

How could I have never thought of that?!?

Well, I'm convinced

 

[mikeHAZE]

that was easy

 

[Anth0ny]

that was easy

But seriously, DDD has so many tools against Marth. Sheild grab cg means Marth can't get out of it with upb (usually) without getting punished, his ftilt outranges everything Marth has on the ground (and I think his dtilt as well?), his dair goes through Marth's upair, so it's hard to juggle his fat ***, and his uptilt kills Marth at 100 or so. I can't think of anything that Marth really has on him other than...spacing. Which could be used for any matchup. If you outspace MK, then I guess Marth has the advantage?

I'm not saying DDD absolutely wrecks Marth, but I think it's worse than 60-40. 65-35 for sure.

 

[mikeHAZE]

just be patient, if i rush in stupidly and don't space everything and change up, then yeah, i'll get *****.

 

[etecoon]

Sheild grab cg means Marth can't get out of it with upb (usually

If DDD's timing is off Marth can escape the CG without DS anyway.

If you outspace MK, then I guess Marth has the advantage?

Marth doesn't outspace MK, though.

 

[Anth0ny]

If DDD's timing is off Marth can escape the CG without DS anyway.



Marth doesn't outspace MK, though.

If DDD's timing is off anyone can escape the CG lol.

And Marth doesn't outspace DDD either. I know that Marth doesn't have much on DDD on the ground... Does DDD's bair outspace Marth's fair?

 

[Remzi]

I'd say its about 60:40

They are pretty much even at a neutral state. Marth can pressure the hell out of him with well spaced fairs, dtilts, nairs, etc. But D3 has a strong defensive game and with waddle dees, ftilt, bair, etc. he has just as much going for him as Marth does.

The reason D3 wins this matchup is that he is allowed to make more mistakes. Marth can't punish D3 as hard as D3 can punish him. D3 has more kill power, weight, better recovery, and a good 40 % off any grab.

 

[Silver Swordsman]

Why are so many people saying D3's one of the top 3 now?
Sure, he's good and always has been, but he hasn't improved AT ALL since the last tier list. His metagame's very simple and the only changes in it have been to adapt to the developments in other metagames. How can he go from fourth to third if nothing new has been found for him and all kinds of new stuff have been found for others?

 

[goodkid]

Why are so many people saying D3's one of the top 3 now?
Sure, he's good and always has been, but he hasn't improved AT ALL since the last tier list. His metagame's very simple and the only changes in it have been to adapt to the developments in other metagames. How can he go from fourth to third if nothing new has been found for him and all kinds of new stuff have been found for others?

Its not about how many ATs a character has. Theoretically, No AT is required to win. D3 has tried and true tactics that look beatable, but really aren't in competition. D3 can punish w/ a grab easier than most characters & he has an infinite on 5 chars. His Bair edgeguarding shuts down a lot of characters. I don't know all of the specifics, but D3 is good from what I hear on the back-room.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Why are so many people saying D3's one of the top 3 now?
Sure, he's good and always has been, but he hasn't improved AT ALL since the last tier list. His metagame's very simple and the only changes in it have been to adapt to the developments in other metagames. How can he go from fourth to third if nothing new has been found for him and all kinds of new stuff have been found for others?

DDD is going up because falco is going to drop.

 

[pizzapie7]

S Tier
Metaknight

A Tier
Snake
Dedede
Marth
Wario
Falco

B Tier
G&W
Diddy
R.O.B
Pikachu
ICs

C Tier
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Kirby
ZSS

D Tier
Toon Link
Pit
Peach
Wolf

E Tier
Sheik
Fox
Luigi
Zelda
Ike
Bowser
Mario

F Tier
Lucas/Ness
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
PT
Ganon
Falcon
Jiggly
Link

Just my 2cents

 

[Kewkky]

Its not about how many ATs a character has. Theoretically, No AT is required to win. D3 has tried and true tactics that look beatable, but really aren't in competition. D3 can punish w/ a grab easier than most characters & he has an infinite on 5 chars. His Bair edgeguarding shuts down a lot of characters. I don't know all of the specifics, but D3 is good from what I hear on the back-room.

Because he doesn't have to work hard to keep the lead on the other characters. their metagames change, but his stays the same, meaning he can adapt.

Any character that has advantages on almost all the cast AND has the ability to keep those advantages no matter how their opponents change their playstyles, has got to mean something, right?

 

[Kamikaze*]

S Tier
Metaknight

A Tier
Snake
Dedede
Marth
Wario
Falco

B Tier
G&W
Diddy
R.O.B
Pikachu
ICs

C Tier
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Olimar
Kirby
ZSS

D Tier
Toon Link
Pit
Peach
Wolf

E Tier
Sheik
Fox
Luigi
Zelda
Ike
Bowser
Mario

F Tier
Lucas/Ness
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
PT
Ganon
Falcon
Jiggly
Link

Just my 2cents

Fix your F tier. It's totally ****ed up. Seriously.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok, about Marth vs Dedede. Marth outranges everything DDD has except DDD's f-tilt and DDD won't spam this simply because the move isn't that hot. Unsafe on block and Marth dodges it with SH fair.

A well spaced fair or d-tilt is super safe. DDD can't shield grab grab it.

DDD only gets CG's on Marth when Marth messes up or DDD takes a risk and it pays off. Waddle dees can disrupt Marth but aren't hard to contend with.

The main reason it's 60/40 is because DDD lives so long and can gimp Marth if he puts him in bad situation. That's all it is.

On the ground the match is quite even. But off stage the nod goes to DDD.

Stop talking non-sense Anthony because it's apparent you don't know what is going on in this match-up. It's ok. I have educated you.

Match-ups come down to options. Don't pull random traits outta your *** and attach a ratio to it. All you will do is earn my animosity and the my opinion that you are a moron. This isn't directed to anyone specific.

Look at the options and the ways each character limits the options of the other.

Then, you will have your ratio.

 

[Browny]

actual real tournament matches played by the best of each char > "the options and the ways each character limits the options of the other."

for determining ratios

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do Marth's even fight alot of DDD's in tourney?

Anyway, wtf is a tournament match gonna show you? Besides the obvious.

If you look at a move and notice it's laggy as balls clearly you don't need to a tourney match to know it's unsafe.

And tournament matches alone don't determine ****. If you watch a match and say...hmmm I think that match shows this match-up ratio is blah blah. The other person will say why do you feel that way.

wtf r u gonna say? You are gonna have to EXPLAIN wtf just happened in that match.

And if you know wtf you are talking about the high level matches will back up your claims for the most part.

Case in point. Mk beats Marth because MK com The only way Marth beats MK is if the Marth is far better or completely outplays him and outthinks him every step of the way.

No go watch some vids of that match and get back to me.

*****.

 

[Anth0ny]

Stop talking non-sense Anthony because it's apparent you don't know what is going on in this match-up. It's ok. I have educated you.

I really don't. I've played Marth since the game's launch, but there's no good DDDs in my area, so I pretty much haven't played the matchup at all. But from what I've heard from others and seen in vids, I thought that the matchup was worse than 60-40.

But you're the Marth master lol, I have no right arguing with you

None the less, I still think Marth is going down on the list. Still a top 10 character for sure, but because of his disadvantages against the top 3 characters in the game, he's gonna suffer.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No shame in ignorance. The shame is in choosing to live in it.

He might go down. Might not. I really don't care.

It doesn't matter.

I think you care because you are former Marth main so you are going through the standard phase of, " My old character failed me so now I must hate on him to distance myself and accept the fact that he isn't as good as I thought he was."

Is that about right?

 

[Inui]

Marth sucks.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So does Brawl.

OH SH*T!!!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So does Brawl.

OH SH*T!!!

I love you AGAIN, Emblem Lord.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Anth0ny]

No shame in ignorance. The shame is in choosing to live in it.

He might go down. Might not. I really don't care.

It doesn't matter.

I think you care because you are former Marth main so you are going through the standard phase of, " My old character failed me so now I must hate on him to distance myself and accept the fact that he isn't as good as I thought he was."

Is that about right?

LOL that's about it

Marth was just frustrating as hell. Having to play damn near perfect to even compete with the MKs and Snakes just made me cry at night. Now I despise him.

But I still secondary him

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's cool bro.

Inui is still going through it.

And he is a HUGE Fire Emblem Fan so hating Marth is secretly killing him inside because he wants to love him.

Watching him write in pain feeds me with strength.

 

[Pierce7d]

Marth is going to drop because he's going to be surpassed by more characters. However, he will become more tourney viable simultaneously. His score will rise, but his competition will rise higher. People might not be noticing this, but the playing field is being neutralized a bit. Wario and Diddy are amazingly healthy for the metagame, because now that people are learning their two very distinct styles of play, they are offering new options. Marth happens to win both of these matches, so he doesn't have to do rounds of 6-4s and MKs every round anymore, becoming more viable.

The main reason I'm so unsure about what exactly what will happen is because I'm so unsure of what will happen with Falco and GnW. I personally think G&W is linear, but workable if you're clever, and the same for Falco, but similarly to how before G&W had attack capabilities and Falco had defensive capabilities, Diddy and Wario have taken these one dimensional styles and transformed them. Marth wins all these matches, with his dynamic attack and defense, but still loses to D3, Snake, and MK.

Basically the question is, where is D3 really going, where is Falco going, and where is GnW going?

 

[Inui]

It's cool bro.

Inui is still going through it.

And he is a HUGE Fire Emblem Fan so hating Marth is secretly killing him inside because he wants to love him.

Watching him write in pain feeds me with strength.

lmao...

He knows.

 

[Emblem Lord]

*Soaks up Inui's anguish and goes SSJ3

 

[∫unk]

It's cool bro.

Inui is still going through it.

And he is a HUGE Fire Emblem Fan so hating Marth is secretly killing him inside because he wants to love him.

Watching him write in pain feeds me with strength.

well played sir

 

[P. O. F.]

Marth is so going down. I can't believe people think he's going to stay where he is, or actually go up

S Tier
MK- Shouldn't be in a tier by himself at the top.
Snake- Definitely second in this game. I know guys like Samurai Panda and DMG disagree for legit reasons, but I live ther region where Ally reigns. Nuff said.

A Tier
DDD- Chaingrab is way too good. Counters Snake (who is now on the same level as MK remember), even if that matchup is closer than everyone thinks (55-45). Also, M2K has stated that the matchup between MK and DDD is closer than everyone thinks.
Wario- Deserves to be here. I think he is interchangable with DDD for 3/4 tbqh. He's the Brawl version of Melee Jiggs, and there are lots of great Wario players that are proving it.
Diddy- Very, very good character that deserves to be this high.
Game and Watch- I know many are going to disagree with me putting him this high, but Game and Watch is way too good. The problem is that all the best Game and Watch players have godly players in their region that make Game and Watch look bad (NOJ, UTD Zac, Hylian, Omega Black Mage). Still a very good character, and I refuse to believe that he is worse than Falco or Marth.
Falco- What a drop off since the last tier list. He went from third to tenth on Ankoku's list (or something like that). He also no longer counters Snake, but still has a pretty close matchup with MK. Many will argue he should be higher than GW, and I think that's fine, but he's not better than Diddy.

B Tier
Marth- He's horrible I think if Roy_R and NEO are still the only Marth players doing anything worthwhile with him by the next tier list, he's going to drop to the bottom of B tier. I just see ZERO potential with this character, and he gets ***** too hard by the top 3 characters in the game.
Ice Climbers- I think they are definitely A tier material, but it might be a little controversial if I put him there lol. I play in a region dominated by Lain and Ambrose, so I know the true potential of these guys. When more and more people start to play Iceys (which they will), and more and more people play at the level Lain and Ambrose and Meep are playing at, Iceys will be in A tier.
Pikachu- THRZY BABY. But seriously, Pikachu is an amazing character with nearly endless potential imo. Anther shows it. Imagine if more and more Pikachus emerged displaying even half of the skill of Anther's Pikachu! Incredible.
ROB- I play with Holy, and his ROB is amazing, but I just don't see much potential for this character. He probably won't drop this low on the actual tier list, but I'm not sure where to place him right now. Maybe above Pikachu?
Kirby- Kirby is amazing. I play with Percon, who is probably the 2nd best Kirby out there, and he does some crazy stuff with him. I think Kirby has crazy potential and could go a little higher if more people played him, but he's severely underplayed.

I think that's where the major drop off starts when it comes to tournament viable characters. Olimar is right after Kirby IMO, but there just aren't enough Olimar players playing him at a well enough level to warrant him a spot in B tier IMO. I don't really care about the other characters, but I know for sure that Sonic, Peach, Pokemon Trainer and Fox will be going up. Oh, and Falcon is not the worst in the game. That would be Ganondorf.

Marth gets ***** by the top three? Marth hardly gets ***** by DDD (by the way, hes not top three.....at all.) It's a tough match up but its very winnable. LOL Marths only other hard matchups are Donkey Kong and Wolf which are EVEN and he pretty much can win as long as the Marth is not stupid and picks his spots. Seriously, playing Snake is not even that difficult. I find Marth only gets ***** by Meta Knight IMO. I'm perfectly comfortable with picking Marth for any other matchup aside from DDD and MK. Marth has no potential? I've killed a GAW at 45% on the far right side of FD with a tippered F smash. If you can space wonderfully with Marth....he ***** a good 90% of the cast. Please, stop typing. You say if Neos the best Marth and hes not placing that well than it means the character sucks? LOL I'm surprised you have not brought up Green Ace or Dark Pch than.... Green Ace is the best Yoshi in the US and Dark Pch is arguably the best Peach and he didnt do so hot at Apex. What's your point?

DDD gets ***** by Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, goes even with Snake, Kirby, Falco, and so many more characters. I honestly wouldnt be surprised to see a Jigglypuff beat a DDD. DDD is the most overrated character in Brawl. Hes not that good.

I agree w you with Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, and Kirby though.

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

I definitely believe that Kirby, ROB, and Diddy will move up higher on the list.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

MK
Snake
Wario
Diddy
D3
Falco
Marth
Game and Watch
Pikachu
IC
Olimar
Kirby
ROB
Lucario
ZSS
Toon Link
Pit
DK maybe?
Peach maybe?


This is about what I'd guess for the tourney viable characters. After that you'd probably have Fox... and I dunno.

 

[P. O. F.]

Hmmm Wario for three? For some reason that does not appear to be all that awkward....hmmm

 

[The Halloween Captain]

lmao...

He knows.

Hey, fandom hurts.

It always hurts.

 

[fromundaman]

Marth gets ***** by the top three? Marth hardly gets ***** by DDD (by the way, hes not top three.....at all.) It's a tough match up but its very winnable. LOL Marths only other hard matchups are Donkey Kong and Wolf which are EVEN and he pretty much can win as long as the Marth is not stupid and picks his spots. Seriously, playing Snake is not even that difficult. I find Marth only gets ***** by Meta Knight IMO. I'm perfectly comfortable with picking Marth for any other matchup aside from DDD and MK. Marth has no potential? I've killed a GAW at 45% on the far right side of FD with a tippered F smash. If you can space wonderfully with Marth....he ***** a good 90% of the cast. Please, stop typing. You say if Neos the best Marth and hes not placing that well than it means the character sucks? LOL I'm surprised you have not brought up Green Ace or Dark Pch than.... Green Ace is the best Yoshi in the US and Dark Pch is arguably the best Peach and he didnt do so hot at Apex. What's your point?

DDD gets ***** by Ice Climbers, Meta Knight, goes even with Snake, Kirby, Falco, and so many more characters. I honestly wouldnt be surprised to see a Jigglypuff beat a DDD. DDD is the most overrated character in Brawl. Hes not that good.

I agree w you with Ice Climbers, Diddy Kong, and Kirby though.

Woah woah woah... While I can't speak for the other characters you mentioned, your Kirby info is not very good. 60-40 is not a **** matchup, not to mention many Kirbies, and I believe Percon was one of them, feel that our matchup ratio is wrong and that it's closer to even or perhaps even slightly D3's advantage.

 

[Matador]

Woah woah woah... While I can't speak for the other characters you mentioned, your Kirby info is not very good. 60-40 is not a **** matchup, not to mention many Kirbies, and I believe Percon was one of them, feel that our matchup ratio is wrong and that it's closer to even or perhaps even slightly D3's advantage.

He said "goes even with". You jumped the gun there a bit.

Edit:....I think. He may actually think it's **** XD

 

[smashkng]

No matchup of Marth are ***** (maybe MK), but DDD and Snake have not very high advantage over Marth.

 

[lain]

wrong stuff

Whoa. Whoa.

 

[ADHD]

Diddy = fourth or fifth, any lower is stupid at least for the way competitive brawl is at this moment.

 

[JUDGE]

rise: olimar diddy wario mario
fall: luigi snake (but snake is cool)

 

[etecoon]

If DDD's timing is off anyone can escape the CG lol.

duh, but Marth can't DS out of DDD's chain grab if he does it perfectly either, so what was the point of mentioning it? Good Marth's aren't just going to spam up B when getting CG'd, if DDD's timing is off Marth gets out anyway, he doesn't need to DS and leave himself wide open.

And Marth doesn't outspace DDD either. I know that Marth doesn't have much on DDD on the ground... Does DDD's bair outspace Marth's fair?

Marth can attack DDD's shield more safely than MK's anyway, and DDD's ftilt is the only attack that outranges Marth but it only really hits Marth when he's grounded.