Luigi player
Smash Master
Squirtles jab also comes out on frame 1...
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Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?
- Thread starter xDD-Master
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Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Ike, Link, Captain Falcon, Falco, Sheik, and Snake all have great jabs..
Well, at least we could all agree that Ganon has the worst jab in the game. Slowest to come out (9 frames), the only non-multi jab, and easily the laggiest.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
To bad that Metaknight has two different jabs.
Popertop
Smash Champion
thats why you runa way an d SIED B DEM!
Nefarious B
Smash Champion
Ftilt=metajab
and ZSS's isn't that great, I'd put Falco's at #1 because it leads strait into his awesome grab, or can go into the infinite worly thing. It also is fast, has good priority, and good range.
and ZSS's isn't that great, I'd put Falco's at #1 because it leads strait into his awesome grab, or can go into the infinite worly thing. It also is fast, has good priority, and good range.
smashkng
Smash Lord
MK's jab can lock in walls.
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Me, thinkamen, bowyer, and G-regshow me a jiggz beating good players of those characters, and placing well.
I think Falco has a "better" jab just because he can grab right after and its so safe (frame 2 and long range)
ZSS would be right below that, she can jab and run away but it's not exactly threatening
Look at NJ power rankings. I'm 12th and I use (diddy, Jiggs)
*JuriHan*
Smash Master
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Thinkaman and Glick came in first in a tourny with Jigglypuff. Thinkman's was out of around 47, Glick's was much smaller, being 15 iirc.show me a jiggz beating good players of those characters, and placing well.
I think Falco has a "better" jab just because he can grab right after and its so safe (frame 2 and long range)
ZSS would be right below that, she can jab and run away but it's not exactly threatening
M.K
Level 55
Squirtle's is pretty good, too. Fast and easy to cancel/lead into other things/grab/juggle pancakes while throwing up motorcycles.
Master Raven
Smash Master
PND
Smash Champion
MK : Jiggernaut beating Zaf in a set at OBScene. Zaf is arguably MTL's best MK, and has won matches against Ally, for a measure of skill. Additionally, Thinkaman vs Overswarm, and most of the Midwest.
DeDeDe : Bowyer vs Lain
KuroKitt10
Smash Journeyman
I'd say I think Pikachu should move up a few spots, but I main him, so of course I'd think that.
I also believe that ZSS deserves a much higher spot than she has right now. Her learning curve is insane, but the few who can master her are a true force to be reckoned with. She has a lot of potential in my oppinion.
I also agree with the sentiments with Diddy, I think he'll be moving up as well.
I'm not sure about Olimar. Personally, I think he's too limited. I just can't see him competing very well with higher tier characters, I think a notch or two down for him.
That's my two pence.
Mew.
I also believe that ZSS deserves a much higher spot than she has right now. Her learning curve is insane, but the few who can master her are a true force to be reckoned with. She has a lot of potential in my oppinion.
I also agree with the sentiments with Diddy, I think he'll be moving up as well.
I'm not sure about Olimar. Personally, I think he's too limited. I just can't see him competing very well with higher tier characters, I think a notch or two down for him.
That's my two pence.
Mew.
Frown
poekmon
I'm very proud of you. No, seriously. I am.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
You sir, are wrong.
Also, to you people doubting thinkamen, Glick, Jigglymaster, bowyer, and G-reg... don't. Yeah, that's not very convincing, but they are good players, and frankly, I'm kind of surprised you guys don't know at least a few of them (Bowyer, G-reg, and Think in particular.).
Also, Framerate's Puff is another great Jigglypuff you shouldn't underestimate.
lain
Smash Master
You do realize that that was the first brawl tournament in MI. The game had been out for maybe a week.
Why people still reference that video, I'll never know.
BTW jiggs sucks. No one wins with her. Don't you think you're trying a little too hard trying to find jiggs winning?
Terios the Hedgehog
Smash Hero
I think Falcon is gonna overtake Ganon this time. I can FEEL it.
MK has like a 65:35 advanatge, which isn't very close. Just saying.
I actually think so too. at least falcon doesn't have an impossible MU (olol Ganon 0:100 against IC)
Many characters have really good jabs and I'm convinced that almost all character's jabs are not used enough. The jab can fulfil many different purposes and can be used in more situations than they're used for at the moment. They can deal very good damage, they refresh stale moves and they beat grabs as well as spotdodges. Some of them have extremely good range (for some of them it's actually hard to believe - look at the range of Warios jabs!) and Jab 1 is in some cases even safe on shieldas you can react fast enough. They can also be mixed with tilts and other moves depending on the character. Sheik, Snake, the space animals, Lucario, Ike, Luigi, Mario, ROB, Diddy Kong all have very good jabs. MK has horrible jabs but his ftilt and dtilt are very good replacement moves. (similar to Marth, whose dtilt and sideB can make up for his poor jabs).
Ganondorfs jab might be the worst but Jigglypuffs is also really bad and so is Cpt. Falcons (many ppl think it's one of his better moves but it's still way too easy to SDI out of).
To get this on-topic:
I think many characters could do better if they used their jabs more. Some characters do fine without them or already use them - those characters are usually high on the tier list (some aren't because they're just not very good characters overall like Peach or Luigi). However, many characters have a lot of untapped potential, partly because their jabs are underused. Those characters are (imo) Fox, Wolf, Pit, Mario and Sheik. I'm not saying those characters will magically become high tier in the next tier list (although Sheik and Wolf are imo low high/high B tier) but I think they'll eventually will rise on the tier list (I doubt it's just coincidence that Wolf, Pit and Fox are that high in the japanese tier list).
For the next tier list I don't expect any of those characters to rise much except maybe Sheik.
Rise: Wario, Diddy Kong, Fox, Sheik, Olimar
Wario and Diddy Kong are both top 5 characters and Fox is slightly better than the tier list shows. Sheik is really good and underrated - if she had better players (who also use Zelda well to help her) she could do a lot better in tournament.
The ICs will probably rise too and so will Pikachu.
Olimar is weird - he seems to have lots of bad match-up's but i think few of them are actually bad. I assume he'll rise ... I think he's S - Tier.
Sonic will probably rise to mid tier.
Drop: Falco, G&W, Kirby, ROB
Falco has his issues with certain match-up's and new CGs are found often (first Pikachu, then Wario). As a character Falco is possibly 3rd best but the game mechanics **** him too hard to justify that position. G&W isn't near the top 5 and ROB will probably continue to drop. Kirby will possibly drop as well even though I think he should actually be higher. His problems are his tournament results (his last top8 placing at a major tournament was ChuDat at CoT4), which I hope will change for the better. Kirby is imo a better character than ROB and possibly as good as Marth is.
Marth, D3 and Lucario will maybe drop a spot or two because of the changes (although D3 still has very good tourney results so he won't drop much).
Edit: Bowser will drop. He just lacks tourney results to justify anything higher than low tier.
Bottom tier is imo: Samus > Falcon > Link > Ganon
Edit 2: MK shouldn't have his own tier.
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
Since when do any low tiers win big tournaments?
I'm not trying to say that Jigglypuffs high tier lol. I'm just trying to prove that shes not bottom tier.
Also I forgot to mention that another top character Jiggly is good against is Diddy.
PND
Smash Champion
Kinzer
Mammy
Ike has a better jab game than Zero suit, even if his is 2 frames slower. Nobody can block the 3rd hit of Ike's jab and it does 16% damage fully fresh... not to mention it freaking kills.
Thank you.
At least the king gropes when he jabs, and has some decent pwoer I guess.
Ah well, whether you do or don't main Pikachu, it's for the most part undisputed he'll move up.
Also LOL pivot grabs as LOLimar.
But seriously no, Olimar is a good character no thanks to his range and power, the only thing he needs to worry about is
Yeah, can't you use some DI into MK to push him away from the wall and DI away from him to finally wake up?
Don't forget Sheik (God I still can't spell this right).
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
You can block it, it's just that most people don't see it in time due to the threat/application of jab canceling. And you have a very small window of time to do so....
Kinzer
Mammy
...So grab follow-ups don't work?
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Other reasons why Ganon should be at the exact bottom.
Along with his jab, his grab, Neutral B, DSmash, and UTilt, are also the worst (of their kind), or just really bad, in the game.
Warlork Punch is clearly a useless move. When have you seen this actually hit a smart opponent? Never.
UTilt is just a "better" replica of Warlock Punch, with more range and wind properties, but like Warlork Punch, it's still useless. It also gives Ganon a blindspot above him, Jump > Uair is just to slow.
DSmash. Has..around 35 frames or higher of lag? Doesn't kill at all. To top that off, the first hit could be air dodged out of.
Grab.. lowest range, slowest pumelling and yet it only does 1-2%.
I also believe that Ganon has the worst recovery in the game. It's a crappier version of Falcons (less aerial speed, smaller second jump). It has no hitstun, while Falcon's does, so players could attack him right out of it. Oh and it does about 6 % less damage than Falcons (11%).
Along with his jab, his grab, Neutral B, DSmash, and UTilt, are also the worst (of their kind), or just really bad, in the game.
Warlork Punch is clearly a useless move. When have you seen this actually hit a smart opponent? Never.
UTilt is just a "better" replica of Warlock Punch, with more range and wind properties, but like Warlork Punch, it's still useless. It also gives Ganon a blindspot above him, Jump > Uair is just to slow.
DSmash. Has..around 35 frames or higher of lag? Doesn't kill at all. To top that off, the first hit could be air dodged out of.
Grab.. lowest range, slowest pumelling and yet it only does 1-2%.
I also believe that Ganon has the worst recovery in the game. It's a crappier version of Falcons (less aerial speed, smaller second jump). It has no hitstun, while Falcon's does, so players could attack him right out of it. Oh and it does about 6 % less damage than Falcons (11%).
Nidtendofreak
Smash Hero
If by grab follow-ups you mean Jab->Grab, technically they have a 2 frame window to jump+AD away. If they attempt anything else, they WILL get grabbed.
If you mean grab releases: they ones that we say work actually work. >_>
sniperworm
Smash Ace
Zelda's jab hits on frame 11...
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Sorry, Ganon's jab comes out on frame 15. I had it wrong.
Kinzer
Mammy
You have a thread/referral/resource?
I find it hard to believe that Ganon's jab is about as slow as Sonic's Forward Smash.
I find it hard to believe that Ganon's jab is about as slow as Sonic's Forward Smash.
B!squick
Smash Master
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
I could've sworn it was 15...
B!squick
Smash Master
You're probably going by the frame data on the Ganon board itself... which is horribly inaccurate. >.>
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
You can also DI down and shield to shieldgrab him out of it.
KuroKitt10
Smash Journeyman
Very true, I was just noting that it's not very surprising to see a pika-main thinking that pikachu will rise. Though I try very hard to be objective, it's hard to deny a bit of bias =P
I suppose I've just never seen/played against a very good olimar. I could be wrong. But, even with his strong grab game, it's not too terribly hard to work around if you're playing a character with decent areals. And, IMHO, once you gimp Olimar's grab game, he's not left with as many options as many of the higher tier characters are. I just think he's too limited to deserve such a high spot on the tier list.
Meow.
Deathcarter
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2007
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- 1,358
Honestly, the notion that Ganondorf's fastest attack was THAT slow made me rofl.
Kinzer
Mammy
Even if he can't pivot grab (which I have no idea when he doesn't have that option except maybe at the edge of the stage where he shouldn't be) he still has his smash attacks.
"You just- That Up-Smash!"
Sorry fellas, no Wombo-Combo, but what character can stop Olimar? He can just use aerials/attacks that hit any angle necessary, and they all reach quite a way except maybe his aerials, but that's the beauty of it, his long-reaching attacks force his opponents to him andb y then they're already committed to one thing where all it takes is just a bit of Mathematics (concerning angles and @#$%) on the part of Olimar to swat you back.
"You just- That Up-Smash!"
Sorry fellas, no Wombo-Combo, but what character can stop Olimar? He can just use aerials/attacks that hit any angle necessary, and they all reach quite a way except maybe his aerials, but that's the beauty of it, his long-reaching attacks force his opponents to him andb y then they're already committed to one thing where all it takes is just a bit of Mathematics (concerning angles and @#$%) on the part of Olimar to swat you back.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
I think Marth is going up along with Sheik
TP
Smash Master
Nope, the Ganon board has it at frame 8. I also tested it myself and got 8. Kalm just misremembered. Ganon's Dtilt, DA, Ftilt are all 10 frames, etc.
Slowest pummeling? Now you're just making stuff up. Master the IASA frames and it is middle of the pack. Also, his Fthrow is the strongest Fthrow in the game, which makes up for the low pummel damage.
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