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Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

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Mecakoto

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His jab comboes are not VERY EASILY DIed out of, his up B isnt THAT HARD to hit. His up B can kill @ 70 and all you need to hit it is to jab your opponent or follow up on a simple mistake. Its not the easiest thing to hit with but for something that kills at 70 its as easy as it can get.
Just because other characters can jab cancel like luigi doesnt mean it isnt a amazing set up. Luigi has the 2nd best jab in the game imo. If you expect to get perfect shielded then grab its all about the outsmarting the other player in a match.
I would love to prove you wrong about Samus as I very strongly dissagree but considering I have no evidense to back it up then I won't even start I will just let time do the work. To many scrubs these days anyway.
His Jab combos are, admittedly, not hard to get out of with regular DI, but throw in some Smash-DI and you have some issues.

The second part are fundamentals of what to do if something will fail or is likely to.

I've played Samus and I see no real reason that she'd go up significantly. Sure, she has the potential to go up, but potential needs to be worked out. I doubt it will matter much, anyways.

I am guessing you and me have 2 very different play-styles. It makes some things easier for one of us to do and manage then the other. This skews our opinions of how things are applicable. Let's leave it at that, shall we.
 

Master Raven

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DDD/Snake is basically even right now and Seibrik (who knows the matchup like the back of his hand from both sides) even thinks the matchup will most likely go slightly Snake's favor once Snakes start to play it more properly. At a recent tourney at Naples, Lambchops actually managed to beat Seibrik's DDD 3-1 in the first set of grand finals, but got 3-0'd the second set lol, but more Snakes should catch up eventually.

I'm unsure about the Falco matchup. Do good Snakes really have a problem with good Falcos consistently?
 

BIGM1994

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DDD/Snake is basically even right now and Seibrik (who knows the matchup like the back of his hand from both sides) even thinks the matchup will most likely go slightly Snake's favor once Snakes start to play it more properly.

I'm unsure about the Falco matchup. Do good Snakes really have a problem with good Falcos consistently?
ughh i think so, i mean watch sk92 vs top snakes it looks like a pain in the ***.also snake cant camp that hard on a good falco i dont think but im not sure lol. also snakes have problems with ddd in general.
 

Seagull Joe

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actually luigi shoryuken is easy to do.if someone rolls into u its automatic hit.jab>shoryuken works well.in dubs when someone is grabbed can be up b'd.also laggy moves leave u open for up b.its not that hard to land.
 

Browny

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*NOTE: Everyone who says Lucario is going up is quite likely wrong.

EDIT: He's either staying where he is or going down. Olimar will most likely be above him.

Much of Lucario is rather telegraphed, his strings are escapable, he doesn't kill well until he is beaten up a bit, etc.
No one ever said lucario is going up lol

However I dont think he has any reason to go down, but other characters might end up above him (as in, a greater number of chars will be rated 10.94 or higher or whatever he was rated)
 

|RK|

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No one ever said lucario is going up lol

However I dont think he has any reason to go down, but other characters might end up above him (as in, a greater number of chars will be rated 10.94 or higher or whatever he was rated)
Ah, but some did. I posted that as I was catching up to this topic, reading it's earlier pages. A few people have said he's going up. If anything, I don't know if 11 would be considered going down since he's tied with Olimar.
 

Mecakoto

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actually luigi shoryuken is easy to do.if someone rolls into u its automatic hit.jab>shoryuken works well.in dubs when someone is grabbed can be up b'd.also laggy moves leave u open for up b.its not that hard to land.
1) If they rolled into me, they made a massive mis-calculation to what I was going to do. I'd just run and Up-B as their invincibility frames end. It'd be easier. Of course, this does not apply to Lucario.

2) I don't play doubles as Weegee. I play it as Peach or Game and Watch.

3) Laggy moves... Meta has none, really, and I play him 60% of the time. All the others need to be side-stepped or perfect shielded. Considering the people that I play, I don't have many opportunities that don't follow a course of risk that I, being a conservative player, am willing to take.


Basically, my Up-Bs come from safe punishment, air-dodge -> Up-B buffer, or ...ahem... ...
...
...
FIRE THAT **** MISSLE AT ME AGAIN! DO IT!

Ahem... cough...
I do not like the Snake Match-up. I hate it more then the Falco match-up.
 

Kewkky

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Snake has all the tools needed to beat falcos... Now, people using te tools how they're supposed to be used, that's another problem. ;)
 

Kinzer

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Who are in the SBR? Link please?
Every moderator and everyone with a purple name. I don't have a link to a list you could see.
I got c'ya covered Inui.

It's the last sub-forum under the "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" forums (you're viewing it right now)... although unless you are in the Smash Back Room yourself you won't be able to see it and most likely when you try to go into it you will see something like this:

"*Insert yourself here*, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
"

And does every mod really have access to the SBR-B? I recall Xiivi telling me sometime ago that wasn't true. It also makes sense since some mods really don't do anything that I see in the Brawl forums.

Even Cutter said it and I believe it to apply to mods too that some of them really don't want to deal with this game at all. :/

...But I guess I will admit some mods just don't have the time or interest I guess, it might not be because of MAY-LAY!.

...but I digress though, this is not the topic for that.

Wait... does SBR-M have different colored names now?
Shouldn't the SBR-M have Green names for that?



And I guess since it's been a while and nobody has yet to reply, I guess I will.

Poltergust, why do you think Yoshi should be above Sonic? I think they're quite even and like Lucario/Olimar and Ness/Lucas (ATM anyway...) share the same spot or at worst keep Yoshi below Sonic.

His representation is lacking, yet his MUs are moreorless even. He also happens to have an awkward playstyle and a very high learning curve that even with all that done and taken care of only take him as far as... eh well let's just say F(or)TM he can't be any better than low-mid tier...
 

Poltergust

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Wow. It's amazing that I happened upon this topic right now to see that someone asked me a question. XD

Well, you are right about Yoshi and Sonic being close, it can actually go either way. Sonic edges out now because he has better tournament results, although if they had the same tournament results I believe that Yoshi would be higher due to having (in my opinion) better match-ups with the high tiers.

Learning curve is what turns a lot of people off from Yoshi (learning Sonic is no easy task either, but I think Yoshi is harder to master), which leads to his low tournament results.

I really think that Yoshi belongs in the bottom of mid-tier, but almost no one else seems to share that same sentiment. =/

But yeah, like I stated before it's impossible for him to get worse. He can only go up from where he is right now.
 

Swordplay

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The following characters will not make the next tier list because they will be banned.

The SWF reasoning is they will be cut from the roster and sent into a pit of shame for being so bad.

Link
Ganon

At least there they can duel for eternity in hyrule instead of being ***** by everyone.
HA HA you thought I was going to say MK didn't you
 

Jenkins

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UP:

Olimar
Diddy
IC's
Sonic (maybe)

Down:
Pit
Rob
Marth

Staying the same:

Fox (maybe)
Peach
Ganon
Zelda
Mario
 

highfive

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going with last guy's post style.
Up:
Sonic
Ganon
(perhaps) Toon Link
Down:
Mario
(probably not) DK
Fox
Stay the same:
Pit
MK
PT
Jigglypuff (don't ask...)
 

Kinzer

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Well Yoshi certainly can't be worse than PowerSuit Samus. :/ Neither is Sonic... C'mon, can we get that fixed this next time around please? I wouldn't mind if Sonic didn't move up much or at all as long as this was made right... -_-

But seriously now, how are Yoshi's MUs? Certainly though all MUs should be considered, but I think we all know that the MUs against the high tiers matter more than those of the lower half of the list (although in extreme cases like Shiek Vs. Ganon, I think it might count for something then... but then again MUs like this are one in a blue moon and I keep digressing but that's okay, anyway yeah I really don't see anything too outstanding concerning this.)

Some evidence would be very nice, because Sonic has a lot of 55:45s/6:4s with the top/high tiers (not including G&W who is suppose to be 65:35 but honestly where the Hell does this come from? Maybe I'm not fighting good G&W players or this one MU is overhyped..). I would assume Yoshi is barking up a similar tree here but I don't believe his MUs are significant enough to (considerably) factor it to push him above Sonic.

And now let's face it, both characters are very hard to pick up and be good at, this would discourage people from picking them up and using them to their full potential in competitive play, but why are we going to use a double standard? Sonic is up there whereas Yoshi hasn't been seeing much light, so that would lead me to believe that something is out there telling me that Sonic is in another ranking all on his own despite his similarities with Yoshi.

Would it be right if I compared them to MK and Marth where Meta Knight is just a better version of Marth...?
 

Inui

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I can assure you that Ganondorf will be on the very bottom, possibly in his own tier of suck. There is no way he will move up.

I believe I'm the best Ganonorf in the USA (Koskinator is probably better) and I think Ganondorf can't ever win against anyone that just waits and reacts to any of his horribly slow and unsafe approaches.
 

TwentyTwo

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What else could he mean? :bee:

Snake owns all.
lol, idk about owns all, but I'd be inclined to agree that his matchups are underrated. Every community comes to the Snake boards and says the same thing every time. Snake can be juggled, and he has a terrible air game. I've expressed my thoughts about it, and many of our matchups are not what they should be, but of course I'm just a guy who goes to a few tourneys here and there in MD/VA.

and yes Snake is **** :laugh:
 

BigLøu

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Definitely.

Falcon can move around more quickly, avoid gimps better, and actually set himself up to be able to approach and mount some form of offensive. I think he's better than both Link and Ganondorf.
I was on the fence at first between those two simply becasue ganon has some stupid priority
 

Moozle

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I forgot to mention it earlier, but I definitely think Sonic is going to go up. He places crazy-well in tournaments. I know he's not amazing, but I never really got why he was THAT low on the tier list.

And yeah, this whole new sheik infinite thing will definitely give them something to think about:laugh:
 

Deathcarter

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lol, idk about owns all, but I'd be inclined to agree that his matchups are underrated. Every community comes to the Snake boards and says the same thing every time. Snake can be juggled, and he has a terrible air game. I've expressed my thoughts about it, and many of our matchups are not what they should be, but of course I'm just a guy who goes to a few tourneys here and there in MD/VA.

and yes Snake is **** :laugh:
I don't know, he seems to be worse than MK, matchup wise. The only time he clearly beats MK is when facing against Mr. G&W, Kirby, and a few of the low/bottom tiers. And aside from that, I cannot recall any top/high/mid tier character except G&W and Peach people are in almost unanimous agreement that he 65:35's. At least MK has R.O.B., Marth, and Olimar.

That aside, he is VERY good.

Well, for this tier list, I can definitely see Sheik moving up. Anyone else?

Also Pikachu MIGHT move up, but I'm on the fence about that one.
I have been saying this for a while: Shiek's top tier matchups are simply above those of what you expect of a non-viable character.
 

Rajam

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lol, idk about owns all, but I'd be inclined to agree that his matchups are underrated. Every community comes to the Snake boards and says the same thing every time. Snake can be juggled, and he has a terrible air game. I've expressed my thoughts about it, and many of our matchups are not what they should be, but of course I'm just a guy who goes to a few tourneys here and there in MD/VA.

and yes Snake is **** :laugh:
Lol i can't agree more; that kind of arguments are crap, in fact, following that same logic Ice Climbers should be the best character ever in Brawl (and already banned btw) because they can chaingrab and infinite every character, but what people forget is that they need to check how can they setup the grab, how risky (or safe) are those setups, and how hard is to do the infinity
Same for Snake; when people say "Snake can be juggled and has terrible air game, so the matchup isn't that bad, it's 45:55 or 50:50 instead of 35:65, 30:70, etc" they just made a terrible point; because they need to explain first how can they get to that point of juggling snake, how safe is to do that, how hard is to do that, and take all that into account.
Ice Climbers isn't the best at brawl and despite the infinite they have bad matchups because the infinite it's very hard to perform, and it's very hard for them to setup a grab. They already know that many times they need to be frame perfect. I kind of laugh when new infinites or "combos" are discovered and immediatly people start to say that the matchup it's more do-able; many of those infinites are very hard to perform and/or setup, they need frame perfection... etc
It's the same concept with vague arguments like "Snake it's juggled", "G&W is light", "Bowser is fat", "Falco has terrible recovery" because, though those are facts, still a deep analysis is needed in order to how effectively exploit those weak points, how hard, risky is to do, what setups can i use, and most obviously but almost always forgotten, what the other character can do as a response for not falling into your tricks, and what weak points can the other character exploit about your character, and finally then, make a correct and a non-one-sided balance of the matchup

Please don't say tl; dr, lol :laugh: and btw, i already did a post with the movement i think will happen in the next tier list; it's just a what-i-guess list, but anyways this is only a fun topic about what each one believes, not something serious like a match-up discussion :dizzy:
 
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It's the same concept with vague arguments like "Snake it's juggled", "G&W is light", "Bowser is fat", "Falco has terrible recovery"
G&W is light; add the bucket braking when correctly done = G&W acts like a heavy.

"Bowser is fat" it's sort of true xD

"Snake is juggled" What's normally missed there is that snake has a ton of options when he starts to recover high. Aerials, reversals, C4. I feel that I get a good sizeable amount of damage from being juggled at times.

"Falco has terrible recovery" True again. Hardly ever is explotable. Falco still has enough variations in the recovery that make it hard to predict.
 

Browny

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lmao, please divulge

Falco can use his side b above the stage to not get edgehogged
he can use his side b into the ledge
he can side b under the stage and die
he can use his upb, and die

he has 1 variation in his recovery
 

Swordplay

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Other people agree. I was not joking.

Link and Ganon will be banned from Brawl to avoid further embarrassment.

You can put money on that!
 

Rajam

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G&W is light; add the bucket braking when correctly done = G&W acts like a heavy.

"Bowser is fat" it's sort of true xD

"Snake is juggled" What's normally missed there is that snake has a ton of options when he starts to recover high. Aerials, reversals, C4. I feel that I get a good sizeable amount of damage from being juggled at times.

"Falco has terrible recovery" True again. Hardly ever is explotable. Falco still has enough variations in the recovery that make it hard to predict.
That's true, but my point is, when people put these facts into the discussion, they measure them awfully when they have to make a veredict of the matchup

For example, snake can be juggled and g&w has excellent air game, so, a wrong conclussion would be something like "ok, have Snake in the air and juggle him (this is a right concept btw, though still would be needed to explain how and why would Snake be in the air; now the wrong part), so the matchup shouldn't be terrible, it's like 45:55 Snake or 50:50 (...)", when we all know Snake it's terrible for G&W (most likely his worst MU) and that's because, in resume, though Snake is very bad in the air against G&W, Snake won't be there most of the time, and in response, Snake "uses" a lot better one of G&W main weak points: his weight.

Now this was kind of an "extreme" example because no G&W had ever said something like that (i hope...), but a lot of times i've seen things like this, presented in a more deceptive, hidden way in the analysis of some matchups, specially high and mid tiers fall into this, minimizing the disadvantages v/s better characters, and throwing crap against lower tiers (Bowser, Jigglypuff as emblemathic cases, along with Lucas, Ness, Sonic, etc.)
 

.AC.

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What else could he mean? :bee:

Snake owns all.
hmm to be honest im starting to believe snake´s worst matchup might be 45:55 against d3 and mk and after that no one gets close.thinking about it even against d3 is 50:50
 

Deathcarter

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This may be an assumption, but I think the people posting in this thread think a 60:40 advantage in Snake's favor is a **** matchup for the other character. Somebody enlighten me, what characters ABOVE THE LOW TIER does Snake beat with a 65:35 advantage or more aside from G&W, Peach, and Zelda since I already know about those three?

I cannot help but beleive that people don't really understand that the vast majority of matchups between the viable and quasi-viable characters are no worse than 65:35 (which are rare enough to begin with as it is) with a few rarities (matchups where one character is either horribly screwed over by a chaingrab/infinite or simply have their weaknesses exploited (or strentghs destroyed) far to easily by the opposing character (Luigi v. MK or Bowser v. Ice Climbers for example).

I really hope SOMEBODY actually replies to this. The last FIVE ****ing posts I made were ignored entirely. Honestly, there is nothing to indicate that I would not get more replies by posting tiers are for blablabla.


EDIT: Given all that I said, I don't think Snake is actually beaten by anybody. I just think he doesn't outright obliterate anyone above E tier.
 
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