Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

[Ray_Kalm]

lol ganon is NOT good in this game. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!

Ganon is the worst in this game.

 

[IKOU]

Pikachus recovery IMO is really not that hard to gimp or intercept due to the amount of options pikachu really has. He can either side B or up B twice back to the stage. If you ledge hog and they decide to side B towards you to get you off a nicely timed bair by most characters works nicely. If they decide to go above you a ledge hop to whatever punishes there lag for the landing of the upB. If they go straight for you and try to attack you with upB you can just shield and punish. I don't know, I find edge guarding Pikachu is a joke. Yes, I've played good Pikachus....I used to do Game battles.

Whoever thinks Marth is going down is an idiot. I also see DDD going down. Hes extremely overrated as a character and has too many bad matchups to be so high. Iceys, Meta Knight, Kirby, Toon Link, Falco, and anyone he cant chain grab basically.

Pika has one of the harder recoveries to gimp. and if you haven't noticed, D3 has good matchups on pretty much everybody else. add range, the fact that he's a heavyweight, and that he has a good recovery for a heavyweight, you have high tier material

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Pika has one of the harder recoveries to gimp. and if you haven't noticed, D3 has good matchups on pretty much everybody else. add range, the fact that he's a heavyweight, and that he has a good recovery for a heavyweight, you have high tier material

Just to clear this out, King DeDeDe isn't just heavy, he's the heaviest with DI.

 

[Red Arremer]

Add to this that his grabgame still is incredible - even without Chaingrabs - and he has quite a few abilities to KO and camp (oh believe me, a Waddle Dee camping Dedede is a horrible opponent)... He definitely will stay up there.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Wow...P.O.F's post made me LOL so hard. I mean he said DDD is overrated and has a bad matchup against basically everyone that he cant Chain grab...and then he mentions Toon Link which is chain grab'able.

EPIC FAIL.

 

[Kewkky]

DDD's bthrow does what, 16%? Thats wayyy too much damage for a throw, considering his amazing grab game! 5 bthrows and you have over 70%, which is enough to start edgeguarding a lightweight! Whereas heavies have to fear his chaingrab, which will do a buttload of % and can continue no matter what % the other character has...

His grabgame is just way too good. Not even considering his above-par recovery (DI, momentum cancelling, heavy, 5 jumps, upB with super armor) or his actual attacks (almost all of them have great uses... The only one I think has only moderate usage quality is the downB, and it's not even necessary in a battle), he still makes for a monster of a character.

Lightweights can just be tech-chased then, dthrow and run towards them and shield. If they roll towards you, dsmash. If they get up on spot, grab. If they roll backwards, dashgrab. if they get up and attack, you already have your shield up, so grab...

 

[fromundaman]

Huh? We're not even comparable. Mine's significantly better because of how much better of a player I am. I don't have to main Ganondorf to be better with him than Ganondorf mains. >_>;

So by that logic, M2K/Ally would have the best Ganons, right?

Anyway, Sonic will probably shoot up to mid tier. Sonic mains have done a very good job of showing what he's capable of.

Wario will definitely shoot up.

As everyone else said, Pika will go up.

Personally, I feel Marth could go up too. He has a lot of really good matchups and few bad ones. In fact, he a lot of characters' worst matchup.

I don't know what to think about Diddy TBH. He can both easily **** and easily get *****, depending how a match turns out. Every character with a reflector gives him problems, but he is also one of the easiest to win bad matchups with, since unlike most characters, he forces his opponents to both know the matchup and have experience using bananas.

Not sure what to think about Kirby either. Obviously I have some bias as a Kirby main, but it seems he has few truly bad matchups, and no bad stages (though a lot of really good stages), combos and kills well, and a number of tricks that can immediately reverse a match. That being said, he also has few really good matchups, no good approach options, no projectile, leaves himself open for punishment with a lot of his moves, and has ****ty airspeed (or speed in general for that matter), which can hurt him quite a bit considering he spends most of his time there.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

So by that logic, M2K/Ally would have the best Ganons, right?

I thought the same. From what it seems, Sadaharu Inui NEVER used Ganon in a tournament. I don't know what gave him the right to be calling himself "the best Ganon", then.

 

[TP]

I thought the same. From what it seems, Sadaharu Inui NEVER used Ganon in a tournament. I don't know what gave him the right to be calling himself "the best Ganon", then.

He uses him in low tier tournaments. Whoopty-****ing-doo. In fact, he doesn't even use Ganon in low tier tournaments against good opponents. He switches to Ike. I guess he's the best Ike too.

 

[P. O. F.]

Wow.

This is the most Inaccurate post that I've read in a REALLY long time.

I lol'd at this

wat

Pikachu has like, the hardest recovery to gimp.

Don't judge your experiences based on wifi.

Pikachu is not easy to gimp.

Yes... I agree with this man, as he speaks the truth.

I main Marth....Pikachus worst match up. The match up is extremely easy. Dsmash? Sure...i'll just mash up a couple times. What? None of your aerials outrange or compared with mine? Sure, no problem.

Wait what? I guess I missed this AT. Tell me, how do I shield while I'm on the ledge? I need to learn it to get much better

Hey moron: I meant if you are on stage. Also, I'm pretty sure I can beat you so stop talking. K? Thanks.

Pika has one of the harder recoveries to gimp. and if you haven't noticed, D3 has good matchups on pretty much everybody else. add range, the fact that he's a heavyweight, and that he has a good recovery for a heavyweight, you have high tier material

Ok, but his aerial manueverability is utter.....crap. DDD is one of the slowest and biggest moving targets in the air. Kirby, Falco, Meta Knight, Snake, (its a toos up between 50-50 and in DDD's favor) Toon Link, Ice Climbers, all destroy him. DDD is overrated is not really high tier IMO. ROB, Diddy Kong, Marth, Meta Knight, Snake, GAW, and Wario are all better then him IMO.

Add to this that his grabgame still is incredible - even without Chaingrabs - and he has quite a few abilities to KO and camp (oh believe me, a Waddle Dee camping Dedede is a horrible opponent)... He definitely will stay up there.

His bair, u tilt, and grab game are amazing....that's about it. A camping DDD is horrible? LOL I'm pretty sure a camping Toon Link, Snake, Falco, Pikachu, Pit, or even Wolf is more annoying than arguably the slowest projectile thrown in the entire game.

Wow...P.O.F's post made me LOL so hard. I mean he said DDD is overrated and has a bad matchup against basically everyone that he cant Chain grab...and then he mentions Toon Link which is chain grab'able.

(2.1) - Discussed Matchups
The difficulty and colors are read like this:
30:70-10:90 (Red) -Very Hard
40:60-35:65 (Orange) -Hard
55:45-45:55 (Yellow)-Even
60:40-65:35 (Green)-Easy
70:30-90:10 (Blue)-Very Easy

To find a particular section, use ctrl+f (apple+f for Mac users) on your keyboard to find the section number in parenthesis (for faster results, include the parenthesis).

(3.1) - Ice Climbers
(3.2) - Falco
(3.3) - Olimar
(3.4) - Pikachu
(3.5) - Meta Knight
(3.6) - Mr. Game & Watch
(3.7) - Kirby
(3.8) - Zelda
(3.8) - Zelda/Sheik
(3.9) - Diddy Kong
(3.10) - Wario
(3.25) - Squirtle
(3.11) - Zero Suit Samus
(3.12) - Peach
(3.13) - Fox
(3.14) - Marth
(3.15) - ROB
(3.16) - Toon Link
(3.17) - Pit
(3.8) - Sheik
(3.18) - Yoshi
(3.19) - Jigglypuff
(3.20) - Snake
(3.21) - Lucario
(3.28) - Donkey Kong (Without Infinite CG)
(3.22) - Ness
(3.23) - Lucas
(3.24) - Sonic
(3.25) - Pokemon Trainer
(3.25) - Ivysaur
(3.25) - Charizard
(3.26) - Wolf
(3.27) - Ike
(3.28) - Donkey Kong (With Infinite CG)

Case and point. DDD has a chunk of bad match ups.

I can pick nine characters in the game to beat DDD? Yeah, hes high tier.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

He uses him in low tier tournaments. Whoopty-****ing-doo. In fact, he doesn't even use Ganon in low tier tournaments against good opponents. He switches to Ike. I guess he's the best Ike too.

I seriously lol'd.

Low tier tournaments don't count for much experience wise. You get to face a bunch of rarely used (out side of Sonic) characters. Yep, great experience there. You'd get better character experience from an online tournament.

And why the heck is Ike being using in a low tier tournament? He's bottom of mid tier for a reason: he's not quite low tier. Low tier means low tier, not "low tier + next closest guy".

EDIT: P.O.F. You are a complete joke. I'd advise that you just shut up before you are completely laughed off the site.

 

[bigman40]

I used to do Game battles

Hey moron: I meant if you are on stage. Also, I'm pretty sure I can beat you so stop talking. K? Thanks.



I main Marth....Pikachus worst match up.

Hmm....That's alot of talk since you do something that's very insignificant. Just cause I poked fun at your statement doesn't mean that you need to judge my skills w/o any backup.

Also, just because you play Pika's worst MU, it doesn't mean that his recovery is ****. It's about the overall stuff, not certain ones.

 

[Remzi]

Wow, didn't realize how soon June 5th was.
My new prediction, again, not much thought put into it but w.e

SS:
MK

S:
Snake
D3

A:
Wario
Diddy
Marth
Falco
Olimar
G&W
IC's

B:
Pikachu
ROB
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Lucario

C:
Toon Link
Pit
ZSS
Peach
Sonic
Zelda/Sheik
Luigi
Fox
Wolf

D:
PT
Yoshi
Ike
Mario
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Bowser

E:
Ness
Link
Samus
Ganondorf
C. Falcon

 

[PND]

I think that's the most realistic list yet.

 

[Red Arremer]

You certainly know nothing about Bowser, he's not (almost) Bottom Tier. But... I won't argue with you about it, because it is vain, anyway. Talking about Bowser will always fall on deaf ears.

 

[Remzi]

I think that's the most realistic list yet.

Thank you

You certainly know nothing about Bowser, he's not (almost) Bottom Tier. But... I won't argue with you about it, because it is vain, anyway. Talking about Bowser will always fall on deaf ears.

I thought I was rather fair with Bowser's placement by putting him in D tier. Bowser, Lucas, and Jiggs are very close in my mind and he might move up above those two if I actually thought a lot about this. As of now, I think his placement is fine, though I'd love to hear why you think he should be so much higher.

 

[P. O. F.]

Wow, didn't realize how soon June 5th was.
My new prediction, again, not much thought put into it but w.e

SS:
MK

S:
Snake
D3

A:
Wario
Diddy
Marth
Falco
Olimar
G&W
IC's

B:
Pikachu
ROB
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Lucario

C:
Toon Link
Pit
ZSS
Peach
Sonic
Zelda/Sheik
Luigi
Fox
Wolf

D:
PT
Yoshi
Ike
Mario
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Bowser

E:
Ness
Link
Samus
Ganondorf
C. Falcon

I like where you put Diddy. I think hes amazing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

LOL at Bowser's placement.

Him, Ike, and Ness are all too low. Sonic, PT, Olimar and Jigglypuff are all too high.

Edit: Ugh. Bowser is NOWHERE near Jigglypuff's level. He has his amazing grab releases, great KOing ability, ability to set up KOs through grab releases, good damage racking abilities, good edgeguarding with fire breath, one of the, if not the best OoS option, and better match-ups.

Edit: I should also add: what the heck at Fox>Wolf?

 

[Remzi]

LOL at Bowser's placement.

Him, Ike, and Ness are all too low. Sonic, PT, Olimar and Jigglypuff are all too high.

Edit: Ugh. Bowser is NOWHERE near Jigglypuff's level. He has his amazing grab releases, great KOing ability, ability to set up KOs through grab releases, good damage racking abilities, good edgeguarding with fire breath, one of the, if not the best OoS option, and better match-ups.

Edit: I should also add: what the heck at Fox>Wolf?

I'd agree about Ness, Sonic, and PT, but their tourney placings have been very consistent (whether thats good or bad) and there is honestly no justification for them to move very much at all.

You underrate Jiggs like hell

Wolf is horrendous offstage and decent on stage. I think he is all around a very overrated character.

Regarding Bowser, another character with very low tourney rankings on EVERY list. He gets shut down by quite a few characters and his few strong characteristics simply don't justify a major jump.

 

[P. O. F.]

Edit: I should also add: what the heck at Fox>Wolf?

Fox is definitely better than Wolf.

 

[Red Arremer]

I thought I was rather fair with Bowser's placement by putting him in D tier. Bowser, Lucas, and Jiggs are very close in my mind and he might move up above those two if I actually thought a lot about this. As of now, I think his placement is fine, though I'd love to hear why you think he should be so much higher.

No... if you know so little about the character that you already put him on the same level as bottom tier characters, I won't discuss with you about Bowser. Read the threads on Bowser in his boards and educate yourself.
Otherwise, you will just ignore me and call him slow.

Regarding Bowser, another character with very low tourney rankings on EVERY list. He gets shut down by quite a few characters and his few strong characteristics simply don't justify a major jump.

Tournament results don't make a character better or worse. Falco is still an amazing character even if he is one of the lesser used characters.
Bowser only gets "shut down" by three characters, which are Dedede, Ice Climbers and Diddy, otherwise he does only have slightly disadvantageous matchups.

I'm not saying Bowser is amazing or good, by all means, but I'm saying he's not Low Tier, and he's definitely not Bottom Tier.

 

[Exceladon City]

LOL at Bowser's placement.

Him, Ike, and Ness are all too low. Sonic, PT, Olimar and Jigglypuff are all too high.

Edit: Ugh. Bowser is NOWHERE near Jigglypuff's level. He has his amazing grab releases, great KOing ability, ability to set up KOs through grab releases, good damage racking abilities, good edgeguarding with fire breath, one of the, if not the best OoS option, and better match-ups.

Edit: I should also add: what the heck at Fox>Wolf?

Ike should stay where he's at. Ness should probably go to E tier and Bowser should probably stay where he's at or move up like 2 spots. He's a formidable opponent but he's not quite good for a much higher placement. As for Sonic, PT, Olimar and Jiggs. Jiggs should stay low, like middle of D tier, Olimar is good. Real good. Like a good Olimar would make you cry. Sonic deserves to be C tier. He's better than people think. Go play a good Sonic and tell me otherwise. PT isn't that bad either. If you learn all 3 PKMN you have yourself a pretty solid character.

As for your Fox > Wolf statement. I think they are pretty close but Fox has some overall better match-ups than Wolf does. Which would kinda make a difference.

 

[urfat]

olimar is a mans man! and pokemanz will push higher until he hits mid C maybe not this time around but eventually!!

 

[Remzi]

No... if you know so little about the character that you already put him on the same level as bottom tier characters, I won't discuss with you about Bowser. Read the threads on Bowser in his boards and educate yourself.
Otherwise, you will just ignore me and call him slow.



Tournament results don't make a character better or worse. Falco is still an amazing character even if he is one of the lesser used characters.
Bowser only gets "shut down" by three characters, which are Dedede, Ice Climbers and Diddy, otherwise he does only have slightly disadvantageous matchups.

I'm not saying Bowser is amazing or good, by all means, but I'm saying he's not Low Tier, and he's definitely not Bottom Tier.

*sigh*

look at my list, i have him at low tier

I've said from the very beginning that Falco is overrated, his recent results are showing that.

Tournament results don't make a character better or worse, but they are a **** good indication of how good a character is.

Also, don't make the assumption that I will simply blow off your arguments until you at least try. I'm not that arrogant.

 

[Red Arremer]

*sigh*

look at my list, i have him at low tier

At the very last spot of it, yes. Huge difference.

I've said from the very beginning that Falco is overrated, his recent results are showing that.

k.

Tournament results don't make a character better or worse, but they are a **** good indication of how good a character is.

It's not a character's fault if noone plays them because of silly prejudices.

Also, don't make the assumption that I will simply blow off your arguments until you at least try. I'm not that arrogant.

Just get into any thread of your choice talking about Bowser. You will see this arguments over and over again.
I'm not blaming you in particular, but I'm blaming people who have no idea about the character(s) they are talking about and yet still allow themselves to judge upon them. I had soooooooo many "discussions" with other people about Bowser. Believe me. I'm tired of it. It lead me to quit talking about him.

Seriously. The Bowser boards are open. Go in there. Read. Educate yourself. You seem to have a bit of intelligence in your head, so you should be able to see the light.

 

[K@0S]

My prediction / personnal tier list :

S tier :
MK
Snake
Wario

A tier :
Diddy
Falco
Dedede
Marth
G&W
Olimar

B tier :
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
ROB
Donkey Kong
Lucario

C tier :
Peach
Toon Link
ZSS
Pit
Luigi
Sheik
Sonic
Fox
Bowser
Wolf

D tier :
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Ike
Mario
Zelda
Lucas
Ness

E tier :
Jigglypuff
Samus
C. Falcon
Link
Ganondorf

 

[Red Arremer]

My prediction / personnal tier list :

Aside from Zelda's position, that's a very solid list.

 

[Xyro77]

You certainly know nothing about Bowser, he's not (almost) Bottom Tier. But... I won't argue with you about it, because it is vain, anyway. Talking about Bowser will always fall on deaf ears.

bowser is horrible. There is no escaping that

 

[Frown]

bowser is horrible. There is no escaping that

At least he doesn't have that five minute landing lag from Melee.

 

[Red Arremer]

bowser is horrible. There is no escaping that

He is bad, but he's not Bottom Tier.

 

[:mad:]

Wut?

Captain Falcon above Link and Ganon?
PT at top of D and Zelda in D?

 

[Frown]

He is bad, but he's not Bottom Tier.

Nah. Somewhere around Zelda.

I guess I could give you my personal tier list.


Samus tier


1. Samus
+30

Top-ish Tier


2. Snake
=



3. King Dedede
+1



4. Falco
-1



5. Mr. Game & Watch
=


6. Diddy Kong
+1


7. Wario
+1


8. Marth
-1

Next Tier


9. Olimar
+2


10. R.O.B.
-1


11. Lucario
-1

Mid-High Tier


12. Ice Climbers
+3


13. Kirby
=


14. Pikachu
-2


15. Donkey Kong
-1


16. Zero Suit Samus
=

Mid Tier


17. Toon Link
=


18. Peach
+1


19. Pit
-1

Somewhere around Zelda Tier


20. Wolf
=


21. Bowser
+2


22. Zelda
=


23. Fox
+1


24. Weegee
-3

:shiek:
Sheik
=


26. Yoshi
+7

Fire Tier


27. Lucas
+1


28. Mario
-1


29. Ness
=


30. Pokemon Trainer
+2


MK Tier


31. Meta Knight
-30


Bottom Tier



32. Link
+1


33. Ganondorf
+2


34. Captain Falcon
+2


35. Jigglypuff
-1

Pork tier


36. Sonic/Ike (Ike is a Sonic clone)
-5

True bottom tier

38. Pinocchio
-3

 

[Kinzer]

Why not, Zelda is going to drop.

Falcon I think is going to be above Ganon, but Link... nah... keep him on-stage and he does decent.

Also Bowser may have some "get *****" MUs, but he is (or seems to be) a character you don't want to be near, considering he has his GR shenanigans, fortress which is pretty much the best OoS option in the game, heavy with a decent (horizontal) recovery, and can kill pretty decently... some of his attacks are fast too right?

 

[Red Arremer]

Why not, Zelda is going to drop.

But Zelda's not Low Tier/almost Bottom Tier. lol

Also Bowser may have some "get *****" MUs, but he is (or seems to be) a character you don't want to be near, considering he has his GR shenanigans, fortress which is pretty much the best OoS option in the game, heavy with a decent (horizontal) recovery, and can kill pretty decently... some of his attacks are fast too right?

Ja.

 

[Frown]

Ja.

That's Danish for "Yes".

Bowser is... okay. Somewhere around Zelda.

 

[Flayl]

Zelda shouldn't even be seperated from Sheik. If you're in a bad matchup that can use Sheik (or vice-versa), just take the god**** 25% and have the matchup converted into your favor.

Seriously.

Stop seperating Zelda and Sheik.

 

[Remzi]

There is a huge difference between top of bottom tier and bottom of low, hence the separation between tiers. If there wasn't any difference, characters would be grouped into one large tier.

I've read up on bowser a good bit in the past, I know what he is capable of.

And yes, separating Zelda + Sheik is ridiculous.

Link>Gdorf>CF

 

[Mecakoto]

Link>Gdorf>CF

Captain Falcon is better then Ganon. This is pointless, though, since each will remain at the bottom of the list for the duration of Brawl's life span, but Captain Falcon is better, and should be higher on the list, then Ganon.

 

[xDD-Master]

That's Danish for "Yes".

No its german ._.

Link>Gdorf>CF

Gdorf<CF<Link

 

[Pichu4SSB4]

Captain Falcon is better then Ganon. This is pointless, though, since each will remain at the bottom of the list for the duration of Brawl's life span, but Captain Falcon is better, and should be higher on the list, then Ganon.

I agree. Ganon is just bad. Just take a look at what has been said about Ganon in this thread. Sadaharu Inui and Ray Kalm have pointed out good reasons why Ganon is the worser character. Hell, Ganondorf should be in his very own tier, Ganondorf Tier. And i main Ganon, infact, i main all the bottom ranked characters. And i sadly have to say Ganon is the worst in this entire game. So it should be "Link>CF>Gdorf"