Next Tier List on 5th June - What do you think we have to expect?

[Frown]

No its german ._.



Gdorf<CF<Link

And Danish and Norwegian and Swedish and Dutch.

Falcon<Ganondorf<Samus

 

[P. O. F.]

I personally think Marth could be third best.

His only bad matchups are Snake, DDD, and Meta Knight...thats about it.
He goes even with Wolf and from there he has an advantage against everyone. If you think about it all you need to do is main Iceys and Marth and you cover all matchups lol

 

[Mecakoto]

Falcon<Ganondorf<Samus

Samus is a ****-ton better then those 2. At least she has a few options in some situations. This, and she has a decent recovery, the super Z-air, and a projectile. That, and she can actually approach a few characters.

I personally think Marth could be third best.

His only bad matchups are Snake, DDD, and Meta Knight...thats about it.
He goes even with Wolf and from there he has an advantage against everyone. If you think about it all you need to do is main Iceys and Marth and you cover all matchups lol

Yes. His only bad matchups are against 3 of the most commonly seen tournament characters... This is bad.

3rd best will go to Diddy or Wario.

 

[Kinzer]

When/why is Samus going to be approaching when she has a projectile, let alone projectileS? There are probably only a few character who could force Samus to come to them.

Ah, but poor her, she's a contender for being 5th worst IMO.

If anybody thinks otherwise you're free to tell me why not.

 

[djm111]

I personally think Marth could be third best.

His only bad matchups are Snake, DDD, and Meta Knight...thats about it.
He goes even with Wolf and from there he has an advantage against everyone. If you think about it all you need to do is main Iceys and Marth and you cover all matchups lol

According to the matchup thread IC's go 30:70 against Snake, don't they? So you'd still have him to worry about.

 

[Flayl]

Marth is overrated. He's good, but he's not top 5.

 

[goodkid]

I personally think Marth could be third best.

His only bad matchups are Snake, DDD, and Meta Knight...thats about it.
He goes even with Wolf and from there he has an advantage against everyone. If you think about it all you need to do is main Iceys and Marth and you cover all matchups lol

Nah, Marth is too easy to gimp compared to the other high tiers. D3 & Wario have decent recoveries. G&W has the bucket braking, & Falco is harder to gimp than Marth when he uses side-b.

 

[fromundaman]

Marth is overrated. He's good, but he's not top 5.

I don't know about top 5, but I definitely see him as underrated.

He outranges most characters, is a lot of characters' worst matchup, can kill with most moves if tippered, is the easiest person to shieldbreak with, has the only useful counter in this game, Dancing Blade (It's a reason all of it's own), has a great combo breaker (Dolphin Slash), a spike, and fairly good speed/mobility.

On the downside, his recovery is linear, none of his kill moves are safe, his spike requires more precise spacing than most, and bad matchups against some of the most common tourny characters (though they don't seem like **** matchups either).


I don't know... maybe I'm not seeing something, but he seems like an amazing character, definitely worthy of being near the top.

 

[DZhou]

I think Ice Climbers will be B tier at least.

 

[Popertop]

I don't know about top 5, but I definitely see him as underrated.

He outranges most characters, is a lot of characters' worst matchup, can kill with most moves if tippered, is the easiest person to shieldbreak with, has the only useful counter in this game, Dancing Blade (It's a reason all of it's own), has a great combo breaker (Dolphin Slash), a spike, and fairly good speed/mobility.

On the downside, his recovery is linear, none of his kill moves are safe, his spike requires more precise spacing than most, and bad matchups against some of the most common tourny characters (though they don't seem like **** matchups either).


I don't know... maybe I'm not seeing something, but he seems like an amazing character, definitely worthy of being near the top.

he's worthy of high, but a lot of characters camp him and gay him.

he's **** though and hella fun.

 

[Remzi]

I don't see how Marth could be put anywhere but #6. Maybe 7 after Falco but I think it's becoming clear that Marth is the better character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd agree about Ness, Sonic, and PT, but their tourney placings have been very consistent (whether thats good or bad) and there is honestly no justification for them to move very much at all.

As we saw last tier list, huge difference in tournament results and tier placement =/= sudden large jump on the tier list. Sonic had a HUGE increase, and move up ONE spot. Obviously, tournament results only make up a tiny part of tier placement.

Wolf is better then Fox. Better Blaster for spacing, more KOing moves, better movement speed, Reflector is debatable (invincibility + 2x the speed VS stalling), better throws, from what I remember deals more damage with his moves, better spacing game all together thanks to bair....he's just plain old better.

You underrate Jiggs like hell

There is nothing to underrate. Brawl physics screwed her over like they screwed over Falcon and Ganondorf. She relied on combos: now she doesn't have any. She has a good aerial spacing game and gimping game....and thats about it. She sucks. She's bottom tier.

Regarding Bowser, another character with very low tourney rankings on EVERY list. He gets shut down by quite a few characters and his few strong characteristics simply don't justify a major jump.

According to that logic, Mario should have fallen down a lot more on your tier list and into bottom tier. (D3 = GG, worse then Bowser VS ICs, and D3 is more common then any of Bowser's really bad match ups) tournament results hanging right around Bowser's). As I pointed out, tournament rankings are the smallest factor in the tier list. It's not a jump either, it's keeping him where he belongs: mid tier.

 

[Poltergust]

Well Yoshi certainly can't be worse than PowerSuit Samus. :/ Neither is Sonic... C'mon, can we get that fixed this next time around please? I wouldn't mind if Sonic didn't move up much or at all as long as this was made right... -_-

But seriously now, how are Yoshi's MUs? Certainly though all MUs should be considered, but I think we all know that the MUs against the high tiers matter more than those of the lower half of the list (although in extreme cases like Shiek Vs. Ganon, I think it might count for something then... but then again MUs like this are one in a blue moon and I keep digressing but that's okay, anyway yeah I really don't see anything too outstanding concerning this.)

Some evidence would be very nice, because Sonic has a lot of 55:45s/6:4s with the top/high tiers (not including G&W who is suppose to be 65:35 but honestly where the Hell does this come from? Maybe I'm not fighting good G&W players or this one MU is overhyped..). I would assume Yoshi is barking up a similar tree here but I don't believe his MUs are significant enough to (considerably) factor it to push him above Sonic.

And now let's face it, both characters are very hard to pick up and be good at, this would discourage people from picking them up and using them to their full potential in competitive play, but why are we going to use a double standard? Sonic is up there whereas Yoshi hasn't been seeing much light, so that would lead me to believe that something is out there telling me that Sonic is in another ranking all on his own despite his similarities with Yoshi.

Would it be right if I compared them to MK and Marth where Meta Knight is just a better version of Marth...?

Well, I'll just list my opinions on the match-ups. They may not be right (some of them most likely aren't), but I should come close to most of them.

Meta Knight- 45:55
Snake- 40:60
Wario- 55:45
King Dedede- 45:55
Falco- 40:60
Mr. Game & Watch- 40:60 (I used to think it was 30:70, but then I learned the match-up)
Diddy Kong- 60:40 (based on my experience, and I fight a lot of Diddys...)
Marth- 35:65
DK- 40:60
R.O.B.- 60:40
Olimar- 55:45
Kirby- 50:50

I think that should be all the high tiers. Remember, this is just my opinion and doesn't represent the Yoshi boards' opinion as a whole.

 

[PND]

There is nothing to underrate. Brawl physics screwed her over like they screwed over Falcon and Ganondorf. She relied on combos: now she doesn't have any. She has a good aerial spacing game and gimping game....and that's about it. She sucks. She's bottom tier.

Not even considering rest and rollout, she kills most characters around 90% with a fresh, sweet spotted fair, which is really easy to hit. Her grab range is only bested by DeDeDe, Charizard, and tethers. All of her moves do a minimum of 10% (except pummel and jab, but pummel does 3%, being one of the most damaging pummels IIRC). She goes fairly even with MK, and we have lots of evidence of matches to support that claim, as well as fairly even with DeDeDe. (Don't believe me? Check DeDeDe's matchup guide.) We're second fastest at aerial acceleration and aerial speed, essentially making us the fastest thing in the air. Not to mention she has god tier recovery.

Plus there's rest interrupts (rest as a counter). Hard to pull off, but it HAS been pulled off in tournament settings. Hell, I saw Jiggernaut rest Zaf's MK through a tornado in a tournament, and I've rested through lots of multi hit moves myself. Oh, as for another AT, she can renew all her jumps UNDER a level. Like ISJR, but you know, applicable off stage. Although it only works on certain stages, this gives us unprecedented freedom in off stage harassment.

As for results, we're ahead of 7 other characters, and Thinkaman has placed 1st at a Midwest tourney with 47 entrants. With solo Jiggs. The sad fact is, we only have about 3 consistent placing tourney puffs. Everyone talks about Bowser being good, but no one playing him, this is a similar scenario, although with a bit less redeeming qualities than Bowser

We suffer from range and survival issues, and anything that's a long lasting disjoint (pretty much anything Game & Watch does) is our weakness. And we actually have a few true combos, but aside from that reading an opponent's airdodge and uairing keeps them pretty well juggled, which leads to consecutive hits with basic prediction, provided they lack a fast enough dair. We just can't bair chain like we could in Melee, which does significantly hurt her game. Jiggs is bad, but I doubt bottom. She is really underrated, and I wager it's a few token matchups that keep her from being semi-viable.

I don't mean to sound like a blind fanboy, but I want to bring to light her strengths for consideration. I personally don't care if she rises or drops in the tiers, but I want people to evaluate her realistically, not just from a "no combos, she's light, she sucks" perspective.

 

[P. O. F.]

Samus is a ****-ton better then those 2. At least she has a few options in some situations. This, and she has a decent recovery, the super Z-air, and a projectile. That, and she can actually approach a few characters.



Yes. His only bad matchups are against 3 of the most commonly seen tournament characters... This is bad.

3rd best will go to Diddy or Wario.

When/why is Samus going to be approaching when she has a projectile, let alone projectileS? There are probably only a few character who could force Samus to come to them.

Ah, but poor her, she's a contender for being 5th worst IMO.

If anybody thinks otherwise you're free to tell me why not.

Marth is overrated. He's good, but he's not top 5.

he's worthy of high, but a lot of characters camp him and gay him.

he's **** though and hella fun.

I don't see how Marth could be put anywhere but #6. Maybe 7 after Falco but I think it's becoming clear that Marth is the better character.

Let us say that the following characters in Brawl are somewhere between the best and top 13? (Arguably, this list is not accurate to the T)

Meta Knight
Snake
Marth
Diddy Kong
ROB
DDD
GAW
Falco
Olimar
Wario
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Kirby

Marth does exceptionally well against all of those characters minus Donkey Kong, (even) DDD, (maybe 55-45 IMO) Snake, and he does fairly decent against MK.

Marth struggles with the top two characters but other than Wolf and Donkey Kong who he goes even with, hes beyond dominant.

Falco struggles against Marth, Pikachu, Meta Knight, Snake, (IMO) Kirby, and other characters. I'm not too knowledgable about Falco but I know he has more bad matchups than Marth does.

Wario has a grab release glitch....enough said. Hes good if you can avoid getting grabbed (Melee FTW) but characters like Snake, MK, Marth, and DK all destroy him.

Diddy Kong is a great all around character that could potentially be better than Marth in my opinion. Hes a great all around character that can control the center of the stage with his bananas. Hes fantastic. He's definitely top five but does not get enough rep.

DDD is a huge target that relies on throws, u tilts, and bairs. Every other move that he has is a disrupter, a sort of "GTFO move if you will." His f smash has terrible startup time, his d smash is horrible, and he has his share of horrible match ups. I posted on this earlier. See my posts for info.

GAW is also arguably top five but struggles against dumb characters such as Toon Link, Snake, Marth, Meta Knight, Donkey Kong, Bowser?, and in some cases maybe even a good Link because he is FORCED to approach because he can't bucket his projectiles. Link still sucks but some lower tiers do just fine against GAW.

Basically to wrap this up, with looking at the AMOUNT of bad match ups Marth really does not have many other than the top three characters. Thats it. Those match ups are really not all that bad actually. I'm really used to fighting Snakes in tournament and do fairly well against them.

 

[Deathcarter]

Might as well post my list since everyone else is doing it and I have acquired more basic knowledge:

S
MK

A
Snake
King Dedede
Wario
Diddy Kong
Marth

B
Falco
Pikachu
Mr. Game & Watch
Olimar
Ice Climbers

C
Kirby
R.O.B.
Zero Suit Samus
Lucario
Toon Link
Pit
Donkey Kong

D
Peach
Shiek
Luigi
Sonic
Wolf
Bowser
Fox
Zelda
Ike

E
Pokemon Trainer
Yoshi
Ness
Mario
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Samus

F
Captain Falcon
Link
Ganondorf

Also, I understand if you can't answer me Spadefox. Thanks for replying though.


EDIT for P.O.F.: Don't rely on the DDD's matchup chart. Heck, don't rely on any matchup chart in general. Experience (whether it be yours or that of a well known player) is a better source of matchup knowledge.

In my honest opinion, DDD only gets noticably beaten by Olimar, Falco, Ice Climbers, and Pikachu; all of his other matchups are arguably more even than listed. Those 4 characters are unique in that they basically damage DDD a lot more than he does to them. They also make it VERY hard for DDD to play his usual defensive game as opposed to others that claim to beat him like Kirby, Diddy, Mk, Zelda, or G&W.

They are excellent, but they are not top 5. I would gladly take being disadvantaged to high tier characters whom aren't in the top 6 as opposed to being disadvantaged to 2 of the top 5 characters and another one of the top 5 depending on port priority.

 

[Kinzer]

...Why are you quoting me?

 

[Poltergust]

Because you wanted me to respond to you...? o_O

 

[Kinzer]

No not you, you're fine. I mean the other guy

Though if you could like gather a general consensus for Yoshi's MUs, that would be pretty swell.

 

[Poltergust]

Well, I'm positively sure that I'm right about Snake, King Dedede, DK, and Kirby and almost positively sure on Meta Knight, Mr. Game & Watch, Wario, Falco, and Olimar. The rest are basically my opinion based on my experience.

 

[fromundaman]

Marth struggles with the top two characters but other than Wolf and Donkey Kong who he goes even with, hes beyond dominant.

Isn't Marth vs ROB supposed to be the most even matchup in the game?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not even considering rest and rollout, she kills most characters around 90% with a fresh, sweet spotted fair, which is really easy to hit. Her grab range is only bested by DeDeDe, Charizard, and tethers. All of her moves do a minimum of 10% (except pummel and jab, but pummel does 3%, being one of the most damaging pummels IIRC). She goes fairly even with MK, and we have lots of evidence of matches to support that claim, as well as fairly even with DeDeDe. (Don't believe me? Check DeDeDe's matchup guide.) We're second fastest at aerial acceleration and aerial speed, essentially making us the fastest thing in the air. Not to mention she has god tier recovery.

Plus there's rest interrupts (rest as a counter). Hard to pull off, but it HAS been pulled off in tournament settings. Hell, I saw Jiggernaut rest Zaf's MK through a tornado in a tournament, and I've rested through lots of multi hit moves myself. Oh, as for another AT, she can renew all her jumps UNDER a level. Like ISJR, but you know, applicable off stage. Although it only works on certain stages, this gives us unprecedented freedom in off stage harassment.

As for results, we're ahead of 7 other characters, and Thinkaman has placed 1st at a Midwest tourney with 47 entrants. With solo Jiggs. The sad fact is, we only have about 3 consistent placing tourney puffs. Everyone talks about Bowser being good, but no one playing him, this is a similar scenario, although with a bit less redeeming qualities than Bowser

We suffer from range and survival issues, and anything that's a long lasting disjoint (pretty much anything Game & Watch does) is our weakness. And we actually have a few true combos, but aside from that reading an opponent's airdodge and uairing keeps them pretty well juggled, which leads to consecutive hits with basic prediction, provided they lack a fast enough dair. We just can't bair chain like we could in Melee, which does significantly hurt her game. Jiggs is bad, but I doubt bottom. She is really underrated, and I wager it's a few token matchups that keep her from being semi-viable.

I don't mean to sound like a blind fanboy, but I want to bring to light her strengths for consideration. I personally don't care if she rises or drops in the tiers, but I want people to evaluate her realistically, not just from a "no combos, she's light, she sucks" perspective.

I never said she doesn't have her pocket match-ups. I know about D3 (It actually makes sense when you think about it. Not CG able + opposite ends of the air movement spectrum + D3's relatively slow attacks = lol).

Perhaps I was a bit blunt, but there has been a sudden wave of "Jigglypuff isn't that bad" posts, and quite frankly I'm not seeing it. She's better then Link, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon, but besides that I don't believe she beats anyone else. I also honestly think that a large part of Thinkaman's placement came from people's lack of experience against Jigglypuff. Not to take away from his ability, he's obviously amazing with Jigglypuff, but honestly: how often to people practice the Jigglypuff match-up?

Yes, she has a few rest tricks as well, I do know about them, and the renewing of the jumps (I've done it with Falcon once by accident. Yays for two Up Bs underneath FD's lip.)

She has her uses, but she lacks the number of advantages most of the other characters have.

 

[B!squick]

I'm hoping for Bowser to make the low tier so I can use him in low tier tournaments. :D

And anyway, I stopped caring too much about the tier list when 2 characters got their own tier. I'm glad you all agree that they're great, but ****. :/

 

[Remzi]

Isn't Marth vs ROB supposed to be the most even matchup in the game?

Wow, why do people keep saying that. It was said one time by some Marth (can't remember who) and everybody throws it around now.

It seems to be a slight advantage to ROB, so any matchup that is truly 50:50 is more even than this one.

 

[IxxI]

We need Ken back to bring back Marth.
=[

 

[B!squick]

Didn't Ken have a nasty Fox too?

Also, I think Bowser - Wolf is pretty even steven.

 

[SmashGod17]

We need Ken back to bring back Marth.
=[

Not gonna happen. He lost to a scrub in the first Brawl tournament he went to. It wasn't official and items were allowed, but rather than take the loss gracefully, he got butthurt and decided to quit the game. I lost all respect for Ken after hearing that story, and until he mans up and returns, I will forever know him as a quitter.

 

[demonictoonlink]

Every character board is making a personalized one of these ^^

 

[IxxI]

...What? I don't remember Ken quitting because he got butt hurt? I remember him quitting because he needed a break. Ken says so himself in one of his interviews after Survivor if I remember. If not Survivor, it was more than likely here on SWF. Not to mention he probably has a lot of work to do with school. Remember, he's Asian, LOL. Besides, I'm sure Ken wouldn't get butt hurt over losing in a tournament with items. Items appear at random, and whoever happens to be closest next to the item has a pretty solid advantage.

I think Ken coming back would be pretty good. He was really inventive, and did things that no one else did in melee.
-Dolphin Slash Kill
-Ken Combo
-Dancing Blade

 

[demonictoonlink]

Ken left because he grew out of this...

 

[SmashGod17]

...What? I don't remember Ken quitting because he got butt hurt? I remember him quitting because he needed a break. Ken says so himself in one of his interviews after Survivor if I remember. If not Survivor, it was more than likely here on SWF. Not to mention he probably has a lot of work to do with school. Remember, he's Asian, LOL. Besides, I'm sure Ken wouldn't get butt hurt over losing in a tournament with items. Items appear at random, and whoever happens to be closest next to the item has a pretty solid advantage.

I think Ken coming back would be pretty good. He was really inventive, and did things that no one else did in melee.
-Dolphin Slash Kill
-Ken Combo
-Dancing Blade

I'm just reciting a story I heard. Unless my story was wrong, in which case my friend is in trouble.

 

[.AC.]

Not gonna happen. He lost to a scrub in the first Brawl tournament he went to. It wasn't official and items were allowed, but rather than take the loss gracefully, he got butthurt and decided to quit the game. I lost all respect for Ken after hearing that story, and until he mans up and returns, I will forever know him as a quitter.

he recently went to a tourney in socal.

 

[IxxI]

If Ken did go to a tournament in SoCal. How did he do? I didn't know this?
Are you sure this was Brawl? XD

 

[SmashGod17]

he recently went to a tourney in socal.

How'd he do?

 

[Master Raven]

I'm reeeeally skeptical of Bowser being low tier.

 

[Matador]

I think Bowser's simply victim of under representation. He has one of the better matchups vs MK. One of the best grab games, excellent defensively, and one of the heaviest characters in the game. He just seems to have a little more going for him than characters like Ike and Fox.

 

[Shaya]

Ken went to a tournament in Socal after being "coerced" by his crew members (he was told they were going to get something to eat, ended up being driven to a tournament, LOL), but didn't participate in the tournament, and pretty much only sat around watching/talking/playing friendlies.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

G&W dropped a bunch for some stupid reason on this tier list. He's being underrated this time around, sitting at #8.
Anyway, I care about this list as much as the last one; Not very much.

 

[C.box]

Let us say that the following characters in Brawl are somewhere between the best and top 13? (Arguably, this list is not accurate to the T)

Meta Knight
Snake
Marth
Diddy Kong
ROB
DDD
GAW
Falco
Olimar
Wario
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Kirby

Marth does exceptionally well against all of those characters minus Donkey Kong, (even) DDD, (maybe 55-45 IMO) Snake, and he does fairly decent against MK.

Marth struggles with the top two characters but other than Wolf and Donkey Kong who he goes even with, hes beyond dominant. Marth goes even with ROB too.

Falco struggles against Marth, Pikachu, Meta Knight, Snake, (IMO) Kirby, and other characters. I'm not too knowledgable about Falco but I know he has more bad matchups than Marth does. Marth, pika, kirby, ic(pretty sure its his hardest match up), falco doesn't do bad against mk and has a slight lead on snake.

Wario has a grab release glitch....enough said. Hes good if you can avoid getting grabbed (Melee FTW) but characters like Snake, MK, Marth, and DK all destroy him."Enough said" you realize how difficult it is to grab a good wario? Also none of those characters destroy wario besides marth who only has a 60:40 advantage, wario is supposed to have a slight lead on snake and goes even with snake and mk.

Diddy Kong is a great all around character that could potentially be better than Marth in my opinion. Hes a great all around character that can control the center of the stage with his bananas. Hes fantastic. He's definitely top five but does not get enough rep.Not enough rep? He has higher rep then both wario and marth he loses to falco, wolf, mk(people are gonna say this is even but I got it from the diddy boards k? etc.

DDD is a huge target that relies on throws, u tilts, and bairs. Every other move that he has is a disrupter, a sort of "GTFO move if you will." His f smash has terrible startup time, his d smash is horrible, and he has his share of horrible match ups. I posted on this earlier. See my posts for info.He also makes characters unviable <_<

GAW is also arguably top five but struggles against dumb characters such as Toon Link, Snake, Marth, Meta Knight, Donkey Kong, Bowser?, and in some cases maybe even a good Link because he is FORCED to approach because he can't bucket his projectiles. Link still sucks but some lower tiers do just fine against GAW. Pretty sure link is only low tier that doesn't get utterly hardcore ***** by gaw.

Basically to wrap this up, with looking at the AMOUNT of bad match ups Marth really does not have many other than the top three characters. Thats it. Those match ups are really not all that bad actually. I'm really used to fighting Snakes in tournament and do fairly well against them.Snake and d3 are debatable for closer then 60:40 but mk is bad and mk is by far the most tourney used character.

Answers in bold. Also i think the lowest marth can possible get is 7th and im rooting more for 5th :/.

 

[Shaya]

Snake has the advantage on Falco.

With Snake's damage output per grab being as much or more as Falco's entire CG (without continuining combos/gatling etc),
With Snake having the best damage output in the game (or at least in this match up devestatingly more than Falco can)
With Snake outranging Falco completely as well
Being able to duck under lasers, and realistically out camp Falco with nades and ducking,
With out living by A HUMONGOUS margin,
and killing a lot earlier than falco can kill snake,
To top it off Snake can blow himself up to completely avoid the CG, not allowing Falco to do anywhere from 60-80%+ (or even take a stock) that he could do.
Falco doesn't beat Snake.