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*NEW* matchup discussion week #8: D3!

Denzi

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Okay, moving on to fat blue penguins. This weeks matchup discussion, the king of Dreamland, Dedede!



So, our last discussion left us ahead of this fellow, has anything changed? Time to determine the best blue bird in Brawl!

I'll add more to this as the discussion progresses.
 

o-Serin-o

I think 56 nights crazy
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Gross picture. Anyways.

From A D3's Perspective said:
In this matchup you want to avoid being grabbed, particularly in starting percents to 30%. I say 30% because if he gets his first dthrow grab on you at 30%, it won't be decayed enough to do the full CG on you, leaving his CG at around 40% - 45%. After CG percents, avoid to get dthrow > jab for extra damage into a laser lock IF THE FALCO KNOWS WHAT HE OR SHE IS DOING. Against campy Falcos (which is what they SHOULD be doing), if they attempt to side-b to the other side, you can react with utilt, or with the preferred ftilt since it doesn't stale your kill move and puts Falco in a position to get grabbed or Fair'ed, depending on where they are. In general, you wanna stay in the air unless you wanna go through Falco's lasers powershielding them and predicting the aforementioned side-b and intercepting with ftilt or utilt.

When on the defensive, you want to avoid getting grabbed period. Grabs on you can be really dangerous especially if they Falco knows how to mix up dair tricks into baits and punishes. Use waddles to get 5% or to eat some of the lasers at waist level. Since you are either staying at from Falco or keeping yourself in a position to either block lasers or baiting and punishing side-b attempts.

On the offensive (which you should be since a Falco should never be a approaching), you want to stay in the air. Even though I say this for every matchup, your air options are just sooooo much better than your ground options. Bair > Falco's aerials by a lot. Our bair, when it hits, can be followed up really well, by running and going for the grab. If you get the grab, you can bthrow for the 16%, but you can dthrow and go for the tech chase. When tech chasing Falco, it tends to be your best option to slowly walk forward and wait for the Falco to tech in place or tech roll in front of you or behind you. Since Falco's tech roll is about the same speed as your dash, you can use that to regrab and either bthrow or dthrow again and repeat.

When in kill percents, whether it be you or Falco, you want to avoid getting dair. Please. Don't let him do it. Falco's options after a dair at high percents are ****ing ridiculous and can kill you if you don't know what's coming. If you get grabbed, he will dthrow and try to Fsmash kill you. Don't fall for it. Jump always. When Falco is in kill percents, you want to set up for the kill by ftilt him and trying to bait him to side-b, then punish. Whether or not is kinda important, because he can always just airdodge. If he does, go for the grab and fthrow or bthrow off the stage and proceed to kill him offstage. Remember, ftilt eats side-b and can stop his recovery if he doesn't use up-b to recover.

When it comes to offstage and edgeguarding, you have the upper hand. Falco has to get back on stage the best he can or get 30% easily, whether it be from bair or fair. When Falco has to edgeguard you, I usually tend to up-b into the air and wait for the uair to come and SDI the first hit if he tries to hit you with both hits. Not much to really cover in this section of the matchup.

Overall, 60:40 Falco. We have options, he just has better ones.
 

Denzi

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I like the pictures.

Anyway, I agree with that and I'll also add that D3's Dair is a good move.
 

Typ_Ex

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i need to play a D3. its been awhile. but id say that ratio looks about right, if not 65:35 us. Spiking is awesome. or getting his up-B at the apex with a sweet spot uair.
 

MetalMusicMan

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The more I play this, the less I think it is a hard counter. Honestly I think that at high levels, Falco gets not as bad for DeDeDe and MK gets worse. This is from the perspective of playing both Falco and DeDeDe in tournament. Coney, a very good DeDeDe main, confirmed this when I played him at VG Boot Camp Indianapolis. He said that he felt at high levels, MK was unwinnable, while Falco was just hard.


I would place this at 60:40 Falco's advantage.

I used to think it was more in Falco's favor, but I'm now quite convinced that it's hardly worse than 60:40 after playing Coney. Coney always picks DeDeDe no matter what, and thus has a great deal of experience against Falcos, compared to most people who would skip the matchup / counter pick.

He actually beat me in pools, though they were very close matches. I felt a bit bewildered because I had rarely played D3's since they usually don't play him against me, but the basics of the match were simple to pull off. Chain grab, camp, abuse jab, phantasm away, rinse repeat.

I felt like I was "winning", but the problem was that I couldn't kill him.

I generally ended up getting him to 200%+ without ever taking much damage, and he just wouldn't die. He was meticulous about punishing everything that he could, and eventually (slowly) got me to ~100% and killed me every stock.

Sure we can rack him up, camp him, CG him... but we can't kill him. He can inch his way in and he only needs a few successful attacks to get Falco to kill %. On his side of the matchup, he will eventually get you to kill % with b-airs / throws, and he has a very easy time killing Falco in comparison.

Still Falco's favor by at least 60:40, but I do not think that this is a hard counter at all. MK can do way worse stuff to DeDeDe than Falco can.
 

swordsaint

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I say kill potential alone makes the MU only 55/45 or 60/40. If we could kill the MU would be easy, but I think all things considered it's not anything better than 60/40.
 

DEHF

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I'd say this match up is about 65:35 Falco, it could be less 60:40, but I don't see it very likely.

Dedede is very heavy and slow. He can land hits, but doesn't really have follow ups to any of them besides his down throw. Falco can full jab combo Dedede without him being able to do anything about it because of his weight and how big he is. If Falco laser camps Dedede he has no big reward moves to punish it with, only f tilt and grab.

If Falco plays this match up correctly, he can shut down Dedede's options very easily.

LOL at J4pu
 

Yumewomiteru

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50:50, Falco can rack up the damage quickly, but can't kill Dedede. Dedede can punish many of Falco's moves with a grab, and rack up more damage by following up because of Falco's bad landing/recovery options.
 
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50:50, Falco can rack up the damage quickly, but can't kill Dedede. Dedede can punish many of Falco's moves with a grab, and rack up more damage by following up because of Falco's bad landing/recovery options.
Falco can kill the penguin. It just depends how you go about doing it. If you go about doing it in a way DDD can punish then yes, you will lose. By that I mean trying to kill him on the stage. But, you shouldn't be doing that. For one, trying to kill DDD when he is on the ledge or in recovery is much easier to land kill moves. The pressure you have on DDD when he is getting juggled or recoverying is quiet good. DDD has some defences, but they only work with you trying to approach him. His UpB should actually be the case for an immediate KO when he uses it. With our ability to boost smash such great distances across the stage we can stand around the middle range of his UpB and follow whatever he decides to do.
 

Vlade

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I'd like a good description on how to play this MU. I don't get much experience in it.
-DON'T GET GRABBED!!! If you minimise the number of times you get grabbed in the match that would help significantly because his bthrow is his best method of racking up damage and is essentially the only way he can keep up with our own damage racking ability.
-DDD's goal is to just powershield the lasers or jump over them and then hopefully get in with a grab or bair to get us off-stage and then attempt to **** phantasm. Just mix it up a lot, and don't get predictable with IAP especially at high % because it's so easy for DDD to just utilt it.
-If you're up close, just jab combo. Super fast and DDD aint gonna grab you unless he PSs lol
-Uair and Bair for the kill. DDD is less inclined to airdodge which means connecting fsmash is less likely (I usually try to read airdodges with charged fsmash but DDD has better, more likely options which he'll opt for usually)
-Just don't do anything stupid, period. Don't get grabbed, don't get sent off-stage. As long as you keep that in mind it's 60:40

Also, play with the mentality that DDD will shieldgrab a lot. You can bait this by doing SHAD crossover and then punish if he tries to shieldgrab by habit.
 

Shaya

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Its impossible on Final Destination (realistically).

D3 can beat phantasm with dtilts, ftilts, utilts, power shield dsmashes (<3), and bairs. D3 can hit Falco with ff nairs into other things if you catch an extremely low phantasm at around the apex of your jump; Dair can work in a similar fashion to MKs tornado. Pivot grab is a lot easier on low phantasms too. Mid height cancelled phantasms you are better off with dtilts, utilts and bairs.

As long as you can keep the starter to Battlefield (pray to the Gods for such a stage list), its really feasible.

Predict something, grab it, down throw if facing and near an edge, bthrow everything else, rinse repeat.
Waddle dees can at least often cut one laser out of the way for a bit to allow at least a better paced approach... but bleh.

Ratios are somewhat silly. Dedede can win the starter in a favourable striking system, but can only CP Falco to stages other potential characters can destroy him on.
 

Typ_Ex

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i keep hearing he can't be killed. If you can manage to get him off stage, you could probably kill him at around 80-130%
 

Jon?

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I play against a few good DDDs where I'm from. My basic strategy against them is to land a grab whenever it's safe. Camp them to high percents. It is very hard for them to punish IAP. I usually end up killing DDD off the side with Bair which can easily be set up with Bthrow.
 

o-Serin-o

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I play against a few good DDDs where I'm from. My basic strategy against them is to land a grab whenever it's safe. Camp them to high percents. It is very hard for them to punish IAP. I usually end up killing DDD off the side with Bair which can easily be set up with Bthrow.
...Where are you from?

It's hella easy to punish IAP if you expect it whenever you get close. Ftilt, dtilt, and utilt **** the **** outta.

A smart D3 will always recover high and cancel the up-b before you can uair or bair us.

I stick with 60:40.

Larry what D3's do you even PLAY?! <_<

WC has no more than 4 D3s; Junk, Beefy, ZEDD, and Aero.
 

MetalMusicMan

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Its impossible on Final Destination (realistically).
This is true. I still think the matchup is 60:40 Falco though.

It's basically the same for Fox, too. I beat Zeton's Fox with DeDeDe on Smashville, then he CP'd me to FD and I stayed DeDeDe (bad idea), and he 3 stocked me. Falco is pretty much the same way, only instead of being 50:50 on the rest of the stages, it's more like 60:40 Falco. But yeah it's doable on most stages except FD.

Again I play both characters in tournament, so I'm speaking from having played both sides of this matchup.
 

M@v

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I thought I had this matchup down to a science, then I started playing florida DDDs(co18 and hbox mainly). It is not a complete blowout, its not worse/better than 60:40 falco. DO NOT go to fd, unless you love getting tech chased for 60% every time your grabbed(hbox is godly at ddds grab game). We do have the camping advantage, and both characters edgeguard the other effectively(lasers/ bair make it hard for ddd, and ddds uptilt completely wrecks phantasm recoveries). Ddd can make us miserable, but we can make him even more miserable.
 

exdia_16

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I say 60-40 Falco his camp game is too good against D3 and not to mention his CG,spike to footstool if done right i say ban BF and or YI and counter pick RC you hav semi-infinite CG on the boat and lasers gimp quite often and i reflect to BDACUS D3 is fat it best to gimp him then to send him up just play safe egde game thats wat i do to all D3s they dont pose a threat to me......Dont Try Me!
 

clowsui

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i will probably ask junk to post on this sometime, i'm sure he wouldn't mind

he and i talk about this a lot, from our discussions i feel as though this is 60:40 at BEST, 65:35 realistically
 

BOLT08

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I would say 60:40 I play this match-up a lot against Razor (JakeBudden)

Advantages D3 has on us
  • He's a pain to kill
  • Uptilt rocks us
  • Swallowcide
  • Swallow-armor
  • Crazy long grab range
  • Good at gimping

We have
  • Supreme campy game
  • big painful cg
  • bair to keep him off the edge
  • did i mention campy game?

Basically the way I fight this match is camp camp camp camp camp camp. The biggest thing is not letting D3 get you off the edge. Which is much harder than it sounds imo. I tend to get beat by my friend's D3 but he's better at this game than I am. The biggest problem I have is figuring out when to IAP. He tends to stay at a distance where I'm unsure if i could get away with an IAP but yet he's close enough he might be able to grab me if i laser again.
I have found that f-tilt is extremely useful in keeping D3 away if you're unsure about where he is.

So basically just move around with your lasers and keep D3 on his toes. Also, i found it more useful for the chaingrab if you don't spike him off the edge, because you will never gimp a good D3 like that. I like to spike them at the edge of the stage and then try to get an Fsmash off, but face the fsmash towards him. Since they will likely try to roll behind you, and they're so big they'll usually still hit the hitbox of the Fsmash that's behind us. So that's a good 60-70 percent right there. Being able to boost pivot grab is a must, if you want to be able to get the max percents on the chaingrab.

Also, if they do throw you i have found it more useful to NOT tech and roll with it. We're still slow and at least if we fall down it gives us the option of a get up attack.

In short
-Watch your IAP's
-Keep moving while you're lasering
-Go for more percents on CG than the spike.
 

Mew2King

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LOL @ all you people with your 6:4s

this matchup is 8:2 i am not kidding

he CANNOT avoid the CG, you start every stock with DDD at 65% + edge guard so really he starts every stock at 80%

and then falco can just SHL into rapid A the rest of the time with RANDOM illusions and ddd can't do ANYTHING
 

Yumewomiteru

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Dedede can grab anything that Falco does, he needs to make like 3 correct reads and Falco is at death percentage. The one more read for the kill.
 

swordsaint

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LOL @ all you people with your 6:4s

this matchup is 8:2 i am not kidding

he CANNOT avoid the CG, you start every stock with DDD at 65% + edge guard so really he starts every stock at 80%

and then falco can just SHL into rapid A the rest of the time with RANDOM illusions and ddd can't do ANYTHING
You may be one of the best, but you're ****ing stupid.
 

M@v

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LOL @ all you people with your 6:4s

this matchup is 8:2 i am not kidding

he CANNOT avoid the CG, you start every stock with DDD at 65% + edge guard so really he starts every stock at 80%

and then falco can just SHL into rapid A the rest of the time with RANDOM illusions and ddd can't do ANYTHING
Even though your m2k, your the best mk, not the best falco or DDD.
 

Orion*

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I say kill potential alone makes the MU only 55/45 or 60/40. If we could kill the MU would be easy, but I think all things considered it's not anything better than 60/40.
you dont need to kill. D3 has no options. why throw out kill moves? just run the clock

m2k is sadly right
 

DEHF

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Dedede can't catch Falco!!!!

it's hard for Dedede to do anything vs. a Falco that knows the match up.
 

erick gm14

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props to the "There will be brawl " Ddd lol. this MU is closely related to dk. PLAY CAREFULLY or u get *****. i have my fair share of DDD(Atomsk,basic sausage,etc) experiance and DK (cable, will) experiance.
m2k is right, if u feel like grabbin his ***, u can most the time... CG to 70, Dacus combo to 90, lasers,phantasm,*^%#ERY^,??????, profit.

65-35 MU goes to the bird with the gun.
lmao 100-0...
 

BOLT08

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D3 can still rack up damage on us easily by getting us off the edge just once, or even with good tech chasing. I don't think I have ever gotten 90% unanswered on a D3. And even then 90% you still need a good 50-80 percent to get him within easy kill range.
 

DEHF

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I don't get why people are so focused on Dedede living for so long, especially since he's the easiest of the entire cast for Falco to combo. Plus Falco can jump over Dedede and do a long side b cancel if he's ever cornered.
 

erick gm14

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oh yea ..,CG>double spike =P i **** d3s with that.

the only dumb thing IMO, is Lucky gordos and waddle dees with electricity..but even then u can reflect/laser camp..

lol look at your opponent when u CG them =P, i only do it vs big chars since cg is easier..

BOLT-tech his dthrows, NEVER tech roll/roll towards him or u eat a dsmash..
 

Bloodcross

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I don't get why people are so focused on Dedede living for so long, especially since he's the easiest of the entire cast for Falco to combo. Plus Falco can jump over Dedede and do a long side b cancel if he's ever cornered.
Or you can just not kill him and not get killed.

GG
 

o-Serin-o

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Wow@M2K.

It isn't THAT ****ing hard to not get grabbed. Jesus H. Christ...
Nair beats out phantasm even when sourspotted, so full hopped side-b's are still countered.

M2K and his silly opinions. Once apon a time, he thought falco was 2nd best character...
 
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