*NEW* matchup discussion week #8: D3!

[J4pu]

gordos are how I used to lose the set
back when I was active in the tourney scene

 

[exdia_16]

LOL @ all you people with your 6:4s

this matchup is 8:2 i am not kidding

he CANNOT avoid the CG, you start every stock with DDD at 65% + edge guard so really he starts every stock at 80%

and then falco can just SHL into rapid A the rest of the time with RANDOM illusions and ddd can't do ANYTHING

im going to start using his strat thats a really smart strat in tourney then all falcos can build off thatand become very pro and legit thanks M2K.

 

[J4pu]

oh god i hope that was sarcasm

 

[erick gm14]

i hope so too..

 

[Wulfy07]

Wow@M2K.

It isn't THAT ****ing hard to not get grabbed. Jesus H. Christ...
Nair beats out phantasm even when sourspotted, so full hopped side-b's are still countered.

M2K and his silly opinions. Once apon a time, he thought falco was 2nd best character...

I personally think Falco is the second best character.

This is 65-35

 

[Bloodcross]

If you think you can time out D3 in this match up you're correct.

Fixed

10balls

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I see alot of people who haven't played a Dedede with the matchup experience. Falco's move really are not that safe, phantasm is not an instant escape. It has alot of startup lag, and Dedede has long lasting moves to hit you out of them.

 

[BOLT08]

Fixed

10balls

Okay maybe it IS possible. But i would say highly unlikely, i have never seen it or even heard of it happening. I don't see how D3 could possibly get timed out, we can't run away forever, eventually they will catch onto your escapes and get you. Or at least I would think so.

But, why would you be trying to time out D3 anyways?

 

[swordsaint]

Okay maybe it IS possible. But i would say highly unlikely, i have never seen it or even heard of it happening. I don't see how D3 could possibly get timed out, we can't run away forever, eventually they will catch onto your escapes and get you. Or at least I would think so.

But, why would you be trying to time out D3 anyways?

That would be because it's safer than throwing out unsafe kill moves on a character that doesn't die and get punished for being a ******.

 

[BOLT08]

Well even so, in running away and lasering it's hard to believe that the opportunity for a kill wouldn't arise. Laser>upsmash would be an example. I don't see your point. Why would you be throwing out unsafe kill moves in the first place? No decent player is going to do such a thing, and from my understanding these matchup ratios are determined on players of equal skill. In which case the falco wouldn't carelessly be throwing out kill moves.

I am not trying to hate on you or anything, but I still don't see how timing out would be a better option than setting up for kills. Since if you're trying to time him out, you're likely to be putting yourself in a position to kill him.

 

[swordsaint]

It's because if the D3 is just sitting around shielding all day, getting the kill will be hard. Obviously we will take the kill opportunity if it arises, but the AIM (not the outcome) should be for the time out. If we can kill it's better, but as long as the Dedede is playing really defensive against smashes, and recovering well, the kill will be difficult, especially since it's unsafe to try and CREATE the kill chance. We have to wait for a BIG screw up. We can't kill if they just shield all day. Sure we can grab, but they don't exactly kill.

It's because if we have to play defensive and patient to get the kill at a percentage very likely about 200%, the clock is whittling down anyway.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Who the **** goes for the time out on a matchup when they HAVE THE ADVANTAGE?

Seriously, have any of you ever even played a good d3? Wtf?

 

[swordsaint]

Who the **** goes for the time out on a matchup when they HAVE THE ADVANTAGE?

Seriously, have any of you ever even played a good d3? Wtf?

Being able to timeout contributes to a ratio.

 

[DEHF]

I see alot of people who haven't played a Dedede with the matchup experience. Falco's move really are not that safe, phantasm is not an instant escape. It has alot of startup lag, and Dedede has long lasting moves to hit you out of them.

Jumping over Dedede and doing side b cancel so that you go further is very safe.

What safe moves does Dedede have against Falco

 

[o-Serin-o]

What safe moves does Dedede have against Falco

Bair
Utilt
Dtilt
Ftilt (sometimes...)
Inhale
Double Jump Dair

 

[DEHF]

Bair
Utilt
Dtilt
Ftilt (sometimes...)
Inhale
Double Jump Dair

If bair hits Falco shield he can dash attack out of shield which can lead into a DACUS. If you double jump bair Falco is able to jump up and bair him.

Falco can shield grab utilt and dash attack that as well if it hits his shield.

Dtilt I'm sure falco can drop shield walk up to Dedede and grab him, that move is pretty slow.

Ftilt falco can side b out of shield

Falco can roll behind Dedede's inhale and use most of his moves if not all of them

Falco can jump up and hit Dedede out of double jump dair. If you're trying to hit his shield he can roll to avoid it and still hit him.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Keep in mind that all of these moves are safe depending on the Falco is doing or planning on doing.


If you're talking about safe moves at all times, then we have none, and the only thing you have that is a safe move is laser, and even that is easy to avoid.

 

[DEHF]

Falco also has side b, jab behind Dedede's shield, nair behind Dedede's shield, and maybe dair and f tilt behind his shield.

I think full hop dair on Falco's shield might be safe for Dedede, but that's about it.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Side B = Utilt or Ftilt.
Jab = Bair OoS
Nair = Bair OoS
Dair = Nair OoS (if you come above us.)


Ftilt can get away with it though.




And using a fullhop Dair on Falco can be Nair'd OoS.

 

[Denzi]

Jab = Bair OoS

Even if we do the full jab combo?

 

[o-Serin-o]

If you start a full jab combo, I'd rather you let it hit me so I can SDI out and jump and Dair you. If we shield it, we can just ftilt you after we come out of shield.

 

[DEHF]

If falco spaces a side b above Dedede there's nothing he can do about it.

Bair out of shield isn't fast enough to beat jab or nair and the nair wouldn't beat Falco's dair, at best it would trade hits.

 

[o-Serin-o]

By spacing a side b above d3 what do you mean.

 

[DEHF]

you side b to the point where it'll barely tip his head and close enough so that u tilt won't hurt you.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Are you side-b canceling?

 

[CO18]

At the end he is im pretty sure, i know what hes talking about but theres a way to punish it..

 

[o-Serin-o]

**** whatever you're talking about, I'd just shield and throw a god**** waddle xD

 

[CO18]

**** whatever you're talking about, I'd just shield and throw a god**** waddle xD

yes, because it would obviously hit...

 

[∫unk]

mew2king has no idea what he's talking about regarding this matchup. and larry your memory is horrible (regarding our tp4 friendlies... and yes i know they're just friendlies lol)

i don't see winning a set vs larry as ddd unless you win game 1. i don't see winning a match if you're significantly behind (over a stock) unless you get a gimp (not likely).

i'm not very smart with my cp's (i usually stick to neutrals), but i usually cp lylat. if that's banned then rainbow. if that's not legal or you don't want to play a possible ddd vs mk (i personally think ddd vs mk is better on rc is better than a neutral lol) then battlefield (you still might get mk anyways LOL). i'm wondering now though if YI is a good cp? i dunno i could see both sides getting ***** on that stage lol.

falco's options at the moment he needs to get away from ddd is better that's why it's 6:4... but if ddd plays safe enough, falco has to damage ddd through a lot of b-air and n-air for the first 50% of DDD's stock (at which point Falco will at least eat some d-air and b-air of his own).

from there, i powershield all lasers (at which point larry starts doing grounded lasers, so i have to jump, then he goes back to sh dl, at which point i have to go on the ground again lol so i take a little damage but not a lot)

then i get in a range where i can easily hit him with an f-tilt by taking a step forward and doing it (at the same time, or if he moves forward at all he'll run into f-tilt). from here it's a guessing game. basically anything he does to combat me in this situation is going to lose overall imo. if he side b's, as long as he doesn't do it predictably, it'll probably hit me from there he can air chase/punish my landing.

sometimes i hit falco with u-tilt, which leads to air chase and hopefully forcing an airdodge so falco gets landing lag so i can get a free grab (b-throw or d-throw to air chase or tech chase, although like larry said he can extended side b to avoid any follow up from b-throw on reaction).

if falco does it perfect it clanks and the situation is reset. either way that situation is a losing one for ddd.

i don't think ddd should die to anything except a random b-air at like 180+% that was initiated from a side b air chase. ive lived to 300% vs falco lol. but larry's literally the only falco i've played so far that's patient enough to do that every stock.

VS 99% of FALCOS - they get impatient that they can never grab me, so i get a lot of d-airs/b-airs/swallows. they get impatient that they can't kill me and end up losing stocks over it.

so yes, if falco executes perfectly, ddd will probably lose. i honestly feel that way for most, if not all, of ddd's high/top tier matchups lol. he just punishes extremely well.

edit: this also largely depends on how patient the DDD is. if the DDD gets grabbed in tournament, something went horribly wrong. if the DDD didn't live to 180+, something went horribly wrong.

 

[J4pu]

D3 stuff

did you get tired of wearing a tiara?

 

[clowsui]

not really, junk just didn't do that well with marth and he liked ddd a lot so he switched!

 

[Bloodcross]

I'm pretty sure D3 Fsmash is very safe.

I changed my mind this is 60-40 D3's favor.

 

[o-Serin-o]

clowsui you ride alot of WC's players' meats, don't you?

 

[clowsui]

...wat?

i don't really meatride lol, junk's my friend so i talk to him a lot about smash and life and manga, dunno where you got that impression

same thing w/ larry but i ask him more about smash than anything else

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Jumping over Dedede and doing side b cancel so that you go further is very safe.

What safe moves does Dedede have against Falco

Neither player have a safe move against each other. This matchup solely depend on how well you read each other.

As for phantasm, he can utilt or bair you out of it, and if you do it high enough that they would miss, he can just run after you and you'll basically be in the same position again.

Plus you have 1 frame to do a long cancelled phantasm, if you mess up and do a shot cancelled you'll be punished hard for it.

 

[Typ_Ex]

Neither player have a safe move against each other..

pew pew pew!

 

[o-Serin-o]

Once again, laser isn't THAT safe.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Siletn Laser gives a +2 advantage on shield. It's pretty much as safe as possible.

 

[o-Serin-o]

Powershield > grab
Powershield > ftilt
Powershield > Utilt (for side-b's)
Powershield > dsmash (for rollers)

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

All will be stopped by a jab afterwards, which isn't punishable. You can shieldgrab it if you see it coming, but in that case we can simply go for a grab ourselves.

Ftilt, utilt and dsmash are all too slow.