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Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

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feardragon64

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On a side note, good luck finding good vids of Neo vs good MK's. He doesn't let his matches get recorded usually for fear of letting out his secrets.

But I'll admit, even a lot of good mk's play the matchup in a way that isn't totally to their advantage and end up losing because of it. Other times they might just lose to a better player or simply Marth getting lucky. The point is that there is no consistent Marth beating(or just not losing) other MK's that know the matchup and are at least close in skill level. Maybe it's just because there are a lot more good mk mains than marth mains in high level of play but that's just how I see it to my knowledge.
 

Dojo

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Lol Neo beat me 2-1 in a 5 dollar mm after I was already pissed about losing in bracket. Funny how the last time we met before that IN TOURNEY I beat him 2-0.

Haze also beat me in a 3 dollar mm at Hobo 17 Mk vs Marth 2-1. Funny how the time we met before that I beat him IN TOURNEY 2-0.

Typically in friendlies or MM's I'm not going to gay the matchup the way it is, I'm playing aggro 95% of them because it's generally more fun that way. Losing 5 dollars doesn't bother me.

I'll stop the johning but I do know the matchup quite well, it's just extremely boring. It's not hard to adapt to Marth's stuff. He has to commit to almost everything he does, so it's not hard to punish him...

Stop making faulty assumptions. I have a winning tourney record against every Marth I've played including Neo and Mike.
 

Steel

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In their defense dojo, both of them improved in the match up drastically. NEO definitely anyway. But I hear you when you just aggro'd to make it not boring.
 

Dojo

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Oh I'm not saying they can't beat me. They're **** good no doubt, but assuming I don't know the matchup from one money match and can't generally beat them is a whole other story.
 

RuNNing Riot

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You know, I came here expecting to read and find a motherload of hugely advantagous matchups on anyone who isn't IC, Yoshi or Snake. But now that I've seen it, MK's matchups are surprisingly balanced, even for him. I was especially shocked by Bowser's 60-40 matchup. I thought I would be seeing '****' written all over it.

Interesting...
 

CO18

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Neo no doubt knows the matchup far better than Dojo does, and Mikehaze is a better player than DSF.

If Neo told Dojo exactly what to do to beat him, Dojo would probably win every time. Plank/Omni techncially arent as good as Dojo but know the matchup better than he does, which is why they can beat Neo.

I think 60:40 is the safest bet, and Marth seems to be one of the few characters that still manages to compete with MK at the highest level, matchup known or not.
Except Omni and Plank CAN'T beat neo... Well I know Neo beats omni... and Id assume he beats plank since he barely plays this game anymore.
 

Flayl

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Looking forward to a M2K + Ksizzle + Shadow + Inui + Vex discussion.

But I'm guessing that MK ***** us horribly if he camps it up.
 

ksizl4life

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Lol, bowser. :laugh:

Looks, like we're done discussing all the good characters.
I dont think vex would take to kindly to that. He makes bowser real good. Anyway

Ive never played vex or any bowser in tourney. im clueless. Ask doom, and shadow.
 

Crizthakidd

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i got to have a huge epic tourny set this weekend with Vex. no doubt the best bowser in the country. he has a walking chaingrab and air release to fair which all add a lot of dmg. his shield to up B goes thru a lot of things but in the end....

... tornado and dthrow setups **** bowser. if u wanna win by a big margin u can camp hell on bowser. dair works well/retreating fairs ect alota mk stuff can go unpunished. btw. bowser uptilit is really strong kills at like 95 with no di. fsmash at like 80 near ledges. bowser is easy to edguard. most bowsers will use up their side B so it cant kill anymore even at 140 with pro di.

bowsercides are to be watched out too. Vex is so insane with his bowser but the novelty effect (meaning no one knows how to playu him) wont work on everyone
 

Plairnkk

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Except Omni and Plank CAN'T beat neo... Well I know Neo beats omni... and Id assume he beats plank since he barely plays this game anymore.
He probably would beat me now, but who really knows. Brawl "skill" doesn't exactly go away.
 

DMG

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Meta Knight???

META KNIGHT!

Oh and yes for actual matchup information. MK vs Bowser. Camp more, make Bowser approach you, Nair and Dair a lot offstage and Uair to bait the airdodge and then footstool him into Dair or just flat out footstool him.
 

B!squick

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This match up depends on two things, 1) how much you actually know about the match up from experience (almost always nothing), and 2) how much of a douche you want to be. There isn't much Bowser can do if you decide to plank, camp or whatever.

Otherwise, it's not as bad as you'd think. Klaw Hopping allows for near limitless mix ups since MK doesn't have a projectile, can chain grab MK, and then we always have the "when in doubt, Fortress out... of shield" mantra to fall back on while will always hit you if you're in range of it, so yeah, it will probably hit you.

... tornado and dthrow setups **** bowser.
Not really.
 

Alfa

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Bowser Grab Release Information

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=193617

Jump Release:

Grab release chaingrab
Grab release dash attack
Grab release fair
Grab release upb

Ground Release:

Grab release regrab
Grab release overb
Grab release ftilt
Grab release dtilt
Grab release jab

Other Links:
Spadefox's Bowser - MK thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233635
Liquid Gen's Pivot Grab Release thread
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=233550

There you go, a list of all the stuff we can do to you out of grab.

Basically, we have can infinite you with grab releases, kill you early with F-smash, or at reasonable percents fairly easily with F-tilt/D-tilt/Fair, we are the heaviest characer in the game, we outspeed you in the air, out range you with fire, eat through whorenado with F-tilt, can suicide on you fairly easily, and have a really good OOS option with UpBOOS. However, your Metaknight (nuff said), so either 40-60 or 45-55 MK overall.

Although I believe that this matchup is somewhat stage dependant, because on stages like Battlefield, if you hide beneath the platforms and juggle us, we can't really do much, and it's very difficult to grab release here, but on stages like FD, we have enough spaces to abuse air speed to get from one side of the stage to the other and avoid juggling, and there is nothing to stop grab releases. So on BF, about 70-30 / 65-35, but on FD, about 50-50, or 45-55. So basically, the more platforms there are, the worse we do (thus we are screwed on Rainbow Cruise).
 

etecoon

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I think 70:30 MK, ban FD and I don't think Bowser has another great stage on MK...maybe 65:35 but not worse than 7:3 IMO, I'd be hesitant to give an 80-20 out against ANYONE if some kind of ridiculous infinite or other gimmick isn't involved.
 

Omni

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Except Omni and Plank CAN'T beat neo... Well I know Neo beats omni... and Id assume he beats plank since he barely plays this game anymore.
Where are you getting your information? It's inaccurate.
 

OverLade

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I'd say probably 65:35, mabye 60:40 on FD. Bowser lives long time but his tools against MK are very limited. He doesnt have the ability to connect with as many hits as DK or D3 and still gets nadoraped pretty hard.

When Bowser is falling back to the stage, before you tornado watch for a Bowser bomb as he comes down. Otherwise there isn't much risk in trying to juggle him. Getting grabbed shouldn't be much of a problem as you don't have to fight him on the ground if you don't want to. Mixing up Dash grabs and Tornado works well when you are on the ground though. Be safe on landings etc...

Pretty self explanatory matchup just stay outside of his range and punish laggy attacks while watching out for big hits.
 

Flayl

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Feel free to tornado Bowser while he is in the air, but you really shouldn't use it while he's on the ground.

So far this discussion has been pretty disappointing.
 

B!squick

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I love random numbers with no basis on anything.

First of all, what's this "his tools against MK are very limited", Red? Let me tell you something about Bowser. He is a defensive character. Sure, NinjaLink, Sliq, and Vex get by on being aggresive, but that's just how they roll. If a Bowser player wants to turtle, there isn't a better character for it.

Secondly, MK is dream com true for Bowser's defensive game, as Bowser has better range, excellent grab release options which becomes an infinite if you don't jump release and lead into a FAir if you do, and Fortress OoS which not even MK can stop. This is not a limited list of options, it is maximum available for Bowser.

Thirdly, Whorenado is terrible against Bowser. It gets beat by FTilt and FAir with proper spacing, Bowser Bomb from above if you miss your chance to land it during the start up animation, and of corse, UpB OoS. Or we can just shield the whole thing. Bowser's shield is massive. Also, 2 'Nados = about 1 of any of Bowser's attacks, so if you're retreating it to safety, it's not even worth using it for the damage anyway.

The part where the match up becomes disproportioned is when Bowser is off stage, most likely due to a fresh DSmash. And, like I mentioned earlier, planking and all that jazz.

EDIT:
(thus we are screwed on Rainbow Cruise)
Tell that to Ixis. :p

And yes Flayl, very disappointing indeed.
 

DanGR

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Some of you guys are only looking at Meta Knight's moves on their own. Look at them in conjunction with each other and you'll see how the matchup really plays out.

Yeah, if you see Meta Knight use tornado from all the way across the stage, then yes. You'll be able to ftilt it. What if he's up in your grill though? He's dair camping, and comes down with a tornado after a dair? Are you always going to uptilt it? Will you be able to hit him with an uptilt considering you've got to watch for a billion other ways MK can hurt you? MK has a lot of mixups- several different options the player has at his disposal. He could use a rising dair and then fast fall an airdodge behind you. If you predict a tornado you're screwed.

Even if you hit him out of a tornado at a really low percent, there's enough cooldown lag on the uptilt for MK to punish Bowser with a tornado! If you wanted, you could purposely dair camp->tornado just to get hit by the uptilt so you could punish Bowser right back with even more damage.

Lets say he gets you in a tornado now, after using one of his many mixups. It's not just the tornado damage, but also MK's followups. He has a billion different ways to juggle big characters. Bowser is one of the weakest characters from below too. Do the math.

His best bet it to just rely on his air speed and drift away from MK and hope he doesn't get hit. If he does get hit? That's about 30-40% from the upair chain if he's at a low percent. If you're at a high percent you'll likely get hit offstage- where you can't do a whole lot.
 

Max Ketchum

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I've played Vex in tournament with both my Meta Knight and my Pokemon Trainer. I have a very good grasp of how HE plays specifically (his habits, his tricks), but I'm not sure if all the other Bowsers do most of this stuff. When I fought him with MK, I made the stupid mistake of not camping. It wasn't until after the set that I knew camping was the best way to fight Bowser, but the more I mentally analyze the matchup, the more I think it's ridiculously hard for him to beat.

MK can't do his normal poke game on Bowser. Dtilts (more than one, or even only one if he powershields it), ftilts, and tornadoes on Bowser's shield = lol up B. The move does something like 18-20 damage. Not worth the trade. MK's safe options on Bowser's shield are dair, first hit of ftilt (unless they have amazing reaction time), and fsmash. As soon as you hit him, RUN AWAY. Continuing to pressure a blocking Bowser is dumb, since he'll either grab you for oodles of damage or up B you away. Neither of the two are very favorable outcomes.

Since he's going to be hiding in his shield a lot, grabs are extra helpful. Throw in tricky stuff like first hit of ftilt -> walk away to see how he reacts (spot dodge/up B/stays in shield), then just dash grab right back into him. Dthrow to tornado is a guaranteed 20+ damage fresh. Given Bowser's lack of general options after a dthrow, you can regrab him if you can generalize where he's going to land. Once you pop Bowser into the air, his falling options suck, so uair him into nair or up B (or nothing, if he's at high percents), then return to the ground. Don't be stupid and get hit by down B...it's very telegraphed. If you can't move out of the way fast enough, escape it with tornado. He'll either land on the stage with heavy lag or grab the edge. Situation is set back to normal.

When Vex is on the edge, I know he likes to do edge jump fair, edgehop air dodge, and stand up shield/up B/side B. Sometimes he'll regrab with down B. Bowser's ledge attack below 100% is pretty good too. Watch out for all of these moves, as they come quickly and by surprise if you don't know stuff about Bowser. The best idea is probably to stand just outside of the range of his getup attack and let Bowser commit to something, then punish it. If he does edge jump fair, uair or up B the lag on it. If he does get up attack, run and grab it. Air dodge, grab/tornado/ftilt/charged dsmash. It's not hard.

Bowser's vertical recovery sucks, but up B has silly hitboxes on it. Just be careful and hit him with tipper dairs. Two-three should end his stock. If you catch him without a second jump, hog the edge. The reverse up B edgeguard works exceptionally on Bowser due to the lack of hitboxes underneath his up B. If he recovers high, catch him with uair chains/nair/tornado...it's a free hit.

Killing Bowser is annoying as **** if you don't gimp him. Fsmash kills at like 135, dsmash at 160. You can try forcing him to land near you with a charged dsmash for earlier kills. It's important to save this move for obvious reasons. Just remember that every dsmash you used before kill percents could have been an ftilt. He'll be taking your stocks at much lower percents with his grab releases, utilt (don't glide into him predictably), or fsmash (if a retreating fair misses him entirely, he can hit you with this)...but his kill moves are very situational. The most practical way for him to kill you is with a side B (probably will be stale), up B out of shield (probably will be stale), or grab release fair/dtilt. Just don't be stupid. Oh yeah, and don't get Bowsercided, seriously...just fair/uair/tornado him if he's jumping around with side Bs constantly.

Never approach him with tornado...angled up ftilt, utilt, and up B all just **** it. Tornado should be used when he's just slightly above the ground to eat his air dodges, when his shield is low (aim it appropriately to shieldpoke him), or if you KNOW he will spotdodge (not recommended until you know your opponent's habits/patterns).

Synopsis:
Don't approach him, especially in his shield. He can outrange you with ftilt, but it's not disjointed, so you'll win the head to head against it.
Use grabs (dthrow to tornado is amazing) a lot for positioning and damage.
Tornado is the worst approach available, use it properly.
Save your dsmash, it's unsafe on block anyway. Use ftilt as a substitute for damage.
Bowser is screwed without a second jump offstage. If he's below the edge, he's not gonna waste it to attack you or air dodge. Dair him to oblivion. Reverse up B to the edge or stage if he's going to up B. He gets lots of horizontal distance, barely any vertical.
 

Flayl

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Some of you guys are only looking at Meta Knight's moves on their own. Look at them in conjunction with each other and you'll see how the matchup really plays out.

Yeah, if you see Meta Knight use tornado from all the way across the stage, then yes. You'll be able to ftilt it. What if he's up in your grill though? He's dair camping, and comes down with a tornado after a dair? Are you always going to uptilt it? Will you be able to hit him with an uptilt considering you've got to watch for a billion other ways MK can hurt you? MK has a lot of mixups- several different options the player has at his disposal. He could use a rising dair and then fast fall an airdodge behind you. If you predict a tornado you're screwed.

Even if you hit him out of a tornado at a really low percent, there's enough cooldown lag on the uptilt for MK to punish Bowser with a tornado! If you wanted, you could purposely dair camp->tornado just to get hit by the uptilt so you could punish Bowser right back with even more damage.

Lets say he gets you in a tornado now, after using one of his many mixups. It's not just the tornado damage, but also MK's followups. He has a billion different ways to juggle big characters. Bowser is one of the weakest characters from below too. Do the math.

His best bet it to just rely on his air speed and drift away from MK and hope he doesn't get hit. If he does get hit? That's about 30-40% from the upair chain if he's at a low percent. If you're at a high percent you'll likely get hit offstage- where you can't do a whole lot.
I see this huge wall of theorycraft and CTRL-F Up B. No result. You can't talk about tornado vs a grounded Bowser without mentioning fortress. That just points out how ridiculously low your knowledge on the matchup is.

Gonna read Doom's post now.

edit: Excellent post. Should be easy to see how Bowser is not a contender for even MU against MK. You did overestimate a bit on UpB's damage but yes it does do nicely in that department. I'd also mention how platforms screw Bowser over in this matchup, although Vex might have been able to overcome that, dunno.
 

OverLade

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for anyone who doesnt know.

If you simply hover at the top of bowsers shield with Nado he can't fortress out of it (you're have to shield poke of course, or you're gonna get fortressed on the way down). But point is, as long as bowsers shield is low you can tornado him with no fear of being fortressed.
 

Plairnkk

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You're metaknight, he's a ****ty version of DDD. Just **** him.

My advice on matchups is always so awesome and accurate.
 

Flayl

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for anyone who doesnt know.

If you simply hover at the top of bowsers shield with Nado he can't fortress out of it (you're have to shield poke of course, or you're gonna get fortressed on the way down). But point is, as long as bowsers shield is low you can tornado him with no fear of being fortressed.
I knew you had to wait a bit, but doesn't bowser tilting the shield up prevent it from being stabbed, until, like, it's tiny? That's really not going to happen that often.

I should note Bowser can shield drop UTilt against a DAir that is above his head with 3 or 4 frames of room for error, reverse DAirs that are farther away I have no experience with.
 

OverLade

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I knew you had to wait a bit, but doesn't bowser tilting the shield up prevent it from being stabbed, until, like, it's tiny? That's really not going to happen that often.

I should note Bowser can shield drop UTilt against a DAir that is above his head with 3 or 4 frames of room for error, reverse DAirs that are farther away I have no experience with.
If Bowsers shield isn't full it will likely poke, but importantly, once his shield is low, you can keep tornadoing and his ability to reataliate is limited. You can simply expect a Ftilt and slightly wait/outspace it and tornado.

DK/D3 can punsih shielded dairs but I dont think bowsers aerials are quick enough. Haven't seen it done though.
 

DanGR

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I see this huge wall of theorycraft and CTRL-F Up B. No result. You can't talk about tornado vs a grounded Bowser without mentioning fortress. That just points out how ridiculously low your knowledge on the matchup is.
>___>

Of course you're not going to just jump on top of him with a tornado. That's stupid. I was saying that MK has a lot of options... options that give MK a lot of useable mixups... mixups against a big character with laggy attacks... laggy attacks that can be punished with tornado if the Meta Knight uses his mixups well. That's how tornado should be used in this matchup- not against Bowser's shield, and definitely not when it's likely he'll use fortress OoS.
 
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