Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[-Jumpman-]

"Way more", please. Based on what? No.

MK vs Marth isn't even because tourney results prove this? Did you even watch EVO? Video/moveset analysis isn't reliable because there are other factors than this. I hope you know MikeHAZE could have made better use of his GRs against M2k and he read M2k's approach perfectly quite some times.

 

[∫unk]

Based on you not playing any top MKs in any consistent fashion.

Alright I guess I'll just break down your post now since you clearly need to be clarified.

Didn't NEO already tell you you're dumb and don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Steel]

One Marth player proves a ratio? One set determines everything about a match? BTW.. he LOST.

Marth players are losing to MK's of lesser skill, this has been a known fact for awhile.

and I consider neo a top player and is where most of my experience in the match comes from, also i have no clue what constitutes a top player in the netherlands.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I live in Europe dude... my god.

NEO? I don't care about NEO. Do you believe NEO if he says you're dumb? (Hint: you shouldn't).

One Marth player proves a ratio? One set determines everything about a match? BTW.. he LOST.

Marth players are losing to MK's of lesser skill, this has been a known fact for awhile.

and I consider neo a top player and is where most of my experience in the match comes from, also i have no clue what constitutes a top player in the netherlands.

It was an example.

On non top player level, sure.

This is bs as we can't compare the US to Europe (except for the fact that Armada finished 17th with Sheik at Genesis and some other stuff).

 

[∫unk]

Pokes on his shield get punished by up-bs.

Not really up b is risky and is not usable at low percents at all. Up-b oos works on poorly spaced attacks. Notice how little Mike used it, and how many times he got ***** for misusing it.

Dashgrabs are really unsafe because you have to approach Marth. Dash attacks I wouldn't recommend either if the Marth is good at spacing.

No one dash grabs on purpose unless they're sure it's going to connect because you're lagging, otherwise its a running shield grab. MK's don't approach with dash attack very often anymore because as you said Marth ***** it. So you list one of MK's worst approaches as examples in the neutral situation.

Never use Tornado to rack damage on Marth. He'll up-b if it's used on his shield and if you press B during the nado he'll up-b you out of it.

Not true really... MK uses tornado vs Marth as an anti air... If you shield it they're either going to go past you or they're going to stay away until you react, or touch your shield then back off. Regardless it's not a winning situation for you the MK is in advantage and all he has to do is bait it.

If Marth thinks you're going to dashgrab, he will grab you or use side-b (simple as that, watch MikeHAZE). Side-b is the safer choice here because he can you cancel it and dash away.

I PLAY MIKE A LOT I KNOW THIS. I'm from SoCal... All those big names you dream of playing? I play them a lot. In tourney.

Like I said, Tornado isn't reliable at all. If he feels Tornado pressures him, he should roll away or up-b. Shielding in place or spot dodging is extremely risky and not a good choice at all.

Tornado is anti-air but that's not the main problem.

Saying up b solves everything is great in theory, terrible in practice. You sound like the Marth boards 6 months ago (maybe longer).

This is basically a guide on how to play a good Marth. Try to bait him and make use of this (his up-b for example). I think the most dangerous moves for you in the matchup are side-b and up-b.

This is a guide on what you think a good Marth plays like, by looking at a few videos. Matches only show so many situations... you have to play against great Marths and watch many many games to recognize all situations.

Up b isn't the most dangerous move for mk. It's DB and Grab as they set up for everything else Marth has and compliment each other.

I'd recommend spacing against a Marth (just spacing, not hitting). By doing this he won't be able to entirely control the stage. If the Marth likes spacing with full hops, fh fair, dash up to him and shield, whatever he does, remember it and try to anticipate next time. Using up-b get him off stage is extremely easy if Marth full hops to space, wait for it.

This is like obvious vs every good player you ever face. But what you're talking about is zoning. btw you can space attacks fine and be safe if you know they're oos options.

Marth can grab release you into very dangerous stuff. I believe it was fair, dash attack (the tipper kills EXTREMELY early), up-b, dair and up smash. So never let Marth grab you.

LOL at emphasis on dash attack. Put emphasis on up b kill. Watch NEO vs Omni.

Many people have been telling you should poke Marth with f-tilt, down tilt or other moves. Do not do this, Marth will up-b you. You should always keep a distance against Marth and try to punish his spacing or predict his SHs and punish with dash attacks etc.

Again, Marth's up b's risk/reward in this matchup is terrible. It's a decent move that should be used to punish bad spacing for KOs and used out of grab release for KOs. You need to save the Up-B so it kills when you need it to. If you're just reacting with up b I'm going to bait it, then I'm going to **** you.

I've also seen people recommend using dash grabs. Well, by playing defensively you won't get those grabs because of what I said earlier. Using dash grabs is also very dangerous. Marth will never run up to you and shield, so don't wait for that either, don't try to grab him out of his approach. It's not like Marth will suddenly use shield a lot because you nado him two times. He has the tools to punish what you do, so don't do this.

Translation = if you break down your own spacing and the opponent isn't open, this is bad for you. True for every matchup.

I will now proceed with the things you should be doing against Marth.

1. Space, never let him gain control of the stage. You have priority, so if he makes one mistake, you have a free hit.

>___>

2. Use tornado to punish (not rack damage) spot dodges if you get him to. Just hitting the Marth is enough.

Wrong way to use tornado (they have the option of shielding) unless Marth is being stupid predictable. Most Marth's don't spot dodge a lot. You use it when they're in the air they have counter but you can bait that. Basically Marth's options suck if they're in the air and you're tornadoing.

3. Try to get to know what moves Marth uses in situations and outplay him. It could become a guessing game, but Marth's CAN be quite predictable.

Just cause you can predict it on youtube or whoever you're playing doesn't mean you can when you actually play them. MikeHAZE is extremely hard to predict.

4. Gimp Marth low. Marths tend to recover low and save their up-b. You'll know if they don't. Just get the Marth off stage and drop then dair etc. You know the drill.

Right but not the main way to edgeguard Marth. Marth will start high then go low so he has more options.

5. Safe up-b OoS. This is your best killing move if the Marth is good at spacing.

Shuttle loop is almost always safe. Pretty dumb move.

I think this matchup is 55 - 45 MK or even. If the Marth reads you and uses moves extremely well (spacing etc.) you lose. I know saying this is risky, but MK doesn't have a lot of options against Marth.

This alone shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Marth can limit options but Mk limits Marth's way better.

This is bs as we can't compare the US to Europe (except for the fact that Armada finished 17th with Sheik at Genesis and some other stuff).

Further proves your lack of tournament understanding. Nothing but the top placings matter in big tournaments. I've placed the same as Mike before, Steel has placed the same as Chudat before at regional tournaments. Doesn't mean anything.

Should have left the parenthesis part out and I'd agree with you.

 

[OverLade]

]
NEO? I don't care about NEO. Do you believe NEO if he says you're dumb? (Hint: you shouldn't).

lololololololololololol. Post of the day number 2. For no particular reason.

 

[feardragon64]

Jumpman:

i'd recommend just camping. ****s marth over hard

^This to everything you said. Everything you're saying is MK approaching Marth. If you really think that then why would you try so hard to approach? You notice that MikeHaze vs M2K vid you keep talking about that M2K starts winning when he doesn't constantly rush into Mike's "walk away to dancing blade"?

And don't poke? Marth's up+b OoS against MK's pokes like dtilt, ftilt, etc. is terrible. Why? Because it whiffs! If Marth is up+b'ing OoS as much as you suggest, he's going to get completely ***** when MK starts baiting it.

Marth can't approach. MK can. If MK gets a lead and camps *intelligently* there's not much Marth can do except try to get lucky and/or bait and (try to) punish. Meanwhile MK can just poke at Marth all day and not get punished for it. Who cares if Marth limits MK's options a bit. MK limits Marth's options a lot more.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Up-b is one of his safest moves. Easily. MikeHAZE does not punish M2k using nado to get back to the stage. He doesn't punish him using it to his shield either. He could have.

Look Junkinthetrunk, I'm NOT going to reply to that. Way too much bs. Believe me or not, if you'd have some timing, you'd be hitting those.

About baiting the up-b, up-bing into a nado is pretty safe. I can't nado cancel into air dodge, can you?

 

[etecoon]

From my experience in this matchup, MK should try to play really defensively and use ftilt to transition into "poking mode" when the Marth player stays on the ground for too long.

• Use Upb at any time during your pokes if Marth goes to the air or you predict he'll be vulnerable.
• Roll away/shield if he continues to shield (dolphin slash is likely). Then just play really defensively again until a better situation for poking arises.

That's pretty much what I do, at least. It has worked well thus far.

Don't up B wrecklessly, tornado if he jumps in the air, he can bait up B, then he can uair/utilt/usmash you or run past you and pivot grab you if you dive directly back to the ground. Just SL OoS when you know it will connect.

Never use Tornado to rack damage on Marth. He'll up-b if it's used on his shield and if you press B during the nado he'll up-b you out of it.

you don't use it when he's grounded and not in lag, you use it to **** the idea of ever trying to zone you with fair. most good characters have a good OoS option against tornado(depending on where you use it at least, it is safe if used right on SV...), this isn't even matchup specific lol

Many people have been telling you should poke Marth with f-tilt, down tilt or other moves. Do not do this, Marth will up-b you.

lr2space? dtilt/ftilt hit from well out of DS' range and marth is COMPLETELY ****ED if he misses.

I don't think it's unwinnable bad for marth on neutrals really but MK has a number of near auto win gay CPs where as marth doesn't have a real CP on MK AFAIK, this should also be considered.

 

[∫unk]

Up-b is one of his safest moves. Easily. MikeHAZE does not punish M2k using nado to get back to the stage. He doesn't punish him using it to his shield either. He could have.

Look Junkinthetrunk, I'm NOT going to reply to that. Way too much bs. Believe me or not, if you'd have some timing, you'd be hitting those.

About baiting the up-b, up-bing into a nado is pretty safe. I can't nado cancel into air dodge, can you?

no response needed for this post

unfortunately, you're just really inexperienced (really obvious). no point in talking to you :/

you probably mean well but you just have no idea.

 

[Remzi]

Jumpman, you are talking straight out of your ***. The vast majority of the things you've said are wrong.

It's needless to point them out, because you'll probably just do what you did to the other replies and say they are ridiculous or not worth your time.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I have no idea right... heh... You don't have to believe me of course, I'm not going to argue with you anyway.

Really, up-b into nado? MAN that's stupid. I'm so dumb right.

 

[feardragon64]

Up-b is one of his safest moves. Easily. MikeHAZE does not punish M2k using nado to get back to the stage. He doesn't punish him using it to his shield either. He could have.

Sure, if the MK is just sitting there on top of Marth's shield with nado, Marth can up+b it. But most intelligent MK's don't do that. If Marth shields it, they move away and reset the situation. Marth doesn't have enough time to punish it at that point. And trying to up+b the moment it hits your shield takes ridiculous reaction time assuming you're actually reacting to the hit and not anticipating it. If you are just anticipating it, then you're going to get baited so badly.

About baiting the up-b, up-bing into a nado is pretty safe. I can't nado cancel into air dodge, can you?

When people talk about baiting the up-b, mk isn't going to be ABOVE Marth or right next to him. He's going to tap Marth's shield(or come close to Marth) and wait for it. If Marth is just sitting in shield, he won't have enough time to shieldrop->dash->punish and the situation resets if Marth doesn't take the bait. That's why intelligent nado use can **** Marth. Marth either takes the bait and gets *****, or the situation resets. If MK is constantly getting DS'd out of the nado he's not using it properly.

I'm only replying to this because I want to see if you'll actually respond to anything I'm saying since you don't seem to be doing it for random arguments(or in my case, an entire post directed specifically at you). I don't think I'm being rude or condescending so please don't respond with "I'm not going to reply to that. Way too much bs."

Edit: And this matchup isn't dependent on the nado! MK can camp Marth better than Marth can camp MK. You're big post on how to fight Marth showed that you thought Marth wasn't going to approach(I'll assume means you aknowledge Marth can't reliably approach MK) and MK constantly approaching Marth(which I'm assuming means you're thinking that since Marth is camping, MK has to pursue). All I'm saying is, you haven't given a good reason on why MK has to even deal with any of this ****. Why does he have to approach in the first place?

 

[-Jumpman-]

Sure, if the MK is just sitting there on top of Marth's shield with nado, Marth can up+b it. But most intelligent MK's don't do that. If Marth shields it, they move away and reset the situation. Marth doesn't have enough time to punish it at that point. And trying to up+b the moment it hits your shield takes ridiculous reaction time assuming you're actually reacting to the hit and not anticipating it. If you are just anticipating it, then you're going to get baited so badly.


When people talk about baiting the up-b, mk isn't going to be ABOVE Marth or right next to him. He's going to tap Marth's shield(or come close to Marth) and wait for it. If Marth is just sitting in shield, he won't have enough time to shieldrop->dash->punish and the situation resets if Marth doesn't take the bait. That's why intelligent nado use can **** Marth. Marth either takes the bait and gets *****, or the situation resets. If MK is constantly getting DS'd out of the nado he's not using it properly.

I'm only replying to this because I want to see if you'll actually respond to anything I'm saying since you don't seem to be doing it for random arguments(or in my case, an entire post directed specifically at you). I don't think I'm being rude or condescending so please don't respond with "I'm not going to reply to that. Way too much bs."

Marth's up-b has quite a big range. You can jump into the nado and up-b (a Marth in The Netherlands does this). And I'm not sitting on his or w/e. Like I said, do what you want with this information, ignore it, put me on your ignore list, I don't care. Reading it would help you though.

 

[feardragon64]

Marth's up-b has quite a big range. You can jump into the nado and up-b (a Marth in The Netherlands does this). And I'm not sitting on his or w/e. Like I said, do what you want with this information, ignore it, put me on your ignore list, I don't care. Reading it would help you though.

Ok, thanks for the response(not being sarcastic). Please also read my edit. You said you were going to argue your point as I'm doing mine. I just hope you have an open mind about it so if you do see convincing arguments you'll change your stance. Especially since you're a BRoomer and actually have some influence based on your opinions. I'm trying to be open-minded, consider your argument, see if it makes sense, and then posting a reply and not just read the argument, figure out what's wrong with it and just reply with what I think is wrong with the argument.

So about what you said, I would argue that MK usually move fast enough in the nado to not have to worry about getting up+b'd out. Especially if you're not sitting next to him. I know the range of Dolphin Slash since I used to be a total dolphin slash spammer. The problem is baiting and reaction time. You just can't reliably react fast enough to tell if MK is just going to go right through your shield(Marth up+b's a quarter of a second too late and MK crossed through the shield?), or just taps it and backs off, or just doesn't even come in range. The fact that MK can toy with Marth on that makes it so unreliable.

And also I'm 150% certain MK's dtilt and ftilt outrange Marth's DS. Check for yourself if you want to argue this point before you post a response. Just trust me on this one. Marth boards did so much research on MK vs Marth and did move range/priority comparisons and everything. Marth barely outranges MK in the air, but MK wins on the ground in range except for Marth's fsmash(which is ridiculously punishable anywho).

And lastly, again, I've said this three times now: why does MK have to approach the whole game if he can camp better than Marth?

 

[Palpi]

soo I am guess it is 90-10 mk advantage amirite? That is sure how marth's make it sound like hahaha

It is not THAT bad. /drama!!!

 

[etecoon]

they're just being realistic, marth loses at least 60:40 on neutrals, far worse on some other stages while marth can't do the same kind of ******** CPing to MK, it's known to be his worst matchup for a reason.

 

[-Jumpman-]

And also I'm 150% certain MK's dtilt and ftilt outrange Marth's DS. Check for yourself if you want to argue this point before you post a response. Just trust me on this one. Marth boards did so much research on MK vs Marth and did move range/priority comparisons and everything. Marth barely outranges MK in the air, but MK wins on the ground in range except for Marth's fsmash(which is ridiculously punishable anywho).

People don't space perfectly, can't use range on his d-tilt as an argument. Just like I can't say Marth beats MK because of the aerials.

MK has to approach because he needs to deal damage (yeah, Marth doesn't have to approach either).

Edit: Look, I'm not even going to try continuing this, it won't end anyway and I won't agree just like you won't. Arguments like "MK can bait" are false, because this means I can use the same argument for Marth. It's that simple. Up-b beats nado, period. We can keep talking about mindgames, spacing etc. but this is about theoretical advantages. Unless someone can convince me MK beats Marth 60-40 with an argument that's not "Why does MK have to approach", go ahead. Otherwise, don't reply to this.

Edit2: Oh yeah, what my long post was about: if Marth can shut down almost all of MKs option, why do you think MK has the advantage?

Edit3: Going to bed.

 

[Steel]

People don't space perfectly, can't use range on his d-tilt as an argument. Just like I can't say Marth beats MK because of the aerials.

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

WOW

You have NO clue how to discuss match ups I'm sorry. RANGE ISN'T AN ARGUMENT? LOL

BTW Meta can approach. And it's well known Marth's aerials outrange metas, thats why he can juggle him.

 

[OverLade]

*Looks at thread*

Case and point example as to why DISCUSSION is necessary.

 

[phi1ny3]

OMG everybody listen to the 1337 logic! Marth has a longer sword, thus he BEATS MK!
It's now officially 90:10 Marth's favor, 100:0 if marth takes off the tiara.
What were we thinking?

 

[etecoon]

yeah but MK's sword has greater girth, that's what really counts.

 

[feardragon64]

Alright I'm done. It's clearly a lost cause trying to argue with you Jumpman as you said. I wish you wouldn't make assumptions about me not listening to you because I honestly am and was. But that's how it is. Also, I suggest you try giving this a read:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

Anyways, I'm not a mk board frequenter but I'm casting my vote for 65:35.

 

[mikeHAZE]

guys don't worry



jumpman places well

 

[.AC.]

Alright I'm done. It's clearly a lost cause trying to argue with you Jumpman as you said. I wish you wouldn't make assumptions about me not listening to you because I honestly am and was. But that's how it is. Also, I suggest you try giving this a read:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

Anyways, I'm not a mk board frequenter but I'm casting my vote for 65:35.

i wont go in to detail but marth does better than that.

 

[Shaya]

Marth v MK:

MK's approaches:
Marth's options cover the approaches from MK exceptionally well; Dash Attack, Dash Grab, Dash to Shield are all covered well by Marth on reaction. Pivot DBs, pivot grabs, sh retreating fairs/nairs are all wall-esque moves MK struggles with... MK trying to approach is also giving Marth openings for dtilt, which from low to mid percents will be giving Marth 20% or so damage.
(Marth's advantage...)

Range/Priority Battle:
Whilst MK outdisjoints Marth on the ground; Marth wins slightly in the air. MK's ground beats Marth's air, whilst Marth's ground beats MK's air as well. However Marth has larger commitment in the moves he requires to counter MK's aerials.
MK won't be approaching with aerials though, he'll be using them for walling/camping/baiting purposes, or once he's got a string going.
(EvenISH, slight advantage MK)

"Even ground"
Marth vs MK on the ground is a situation of at optimal spacing, Marth has his options restricted. However he does have forward smash, a high risk move with a high pay off for any error on MK's part in timing whilst having a spacing 'fight off'. He also has a dashing transcended priority/long range move, which at high levels of play is often used for baiting (foxtrot, react, DB); This is something MK does not have. Whilst functioning similar to MK's ftilt, it has more commitment and less range, and less speed over all.

If MK is not spacing optimally, Marth can 'fight' with dtilt for creating openings, similar to mk's dtilt if it trips (but can be used at optimal spacing as its longer range). If Marth perfect shields a well spaced dtilt he'll get a free (most likely) tippered down smash. Whilst yet again a high commitment move, down smash does outdisjoint MK's dtilt, and as for it's speed [6 frames] can punish a whiff... A mix up at best.
(MK's advantage; slight or noticable)

Marth's approaches
Marth approaching MK is difficult. His approaching is 'walling' [with aerials] his way closer, finding openings for dancing blade, or dash to shield...
MK counters two of the three purely with ftilt. Walling can also be hindered by dtilting at Marth's landing, however fair can beat it, and better spacing from Marth can weave out of range inbetween fairs...
Then comes Tornado. Tornado essentially beats all of Marth's approaching options for the most part; dash to shield whilst potentially allowing dolphin slash, is risky and at great use won't be working often (this is from myself playing M2K, whos tornado usage is... unbelievable to the point if he's hitting my shield, Dolphin Slash will not come out due to the shield stun he somehow produces). Due to it's nature it's a low commitment move that is a long range spacing tool that 'counters' Marth's approaches; and to a degree his walling as well. Being pushed into a corner and then escaping is... not really fair, is all I can put it down as.

Also a quirk of "even ground", but Marth struggles with characters with great rolls; as none of his moves cover him from both sides at fast speed, any minor committment what so ever can have MK use his STUPIDLY FAST forward roll to ... make us cry, getting grabs or other moves whilst we're still lagging from the first strike of dancing blade...
(MK's advantage, oh GOD, most definitely)

Punishment game...
Marth's higher damage moves is what creeps the match up back towards Marth, slightly. Grab release for 14%ish (with many options for this, so move staling isn't to be overly considered), grab releasing to kill moves. Juggling options that MK struggles with. Dolphin Slash for bad spacing. The looming 'tipper' that can be taking stocks extremely early even if MK is power housing along. Nair and bair killing well...
Marth can cover MK's options on the edge well, but Marth cannot handle planking, because of this, Marth is most often forced to let MK back on the stage (it's not stalling keeping yourself in a safe position). However any predictions give Marths a smash attack or aerial - Fsmash for ledge drop crap and get ups, up smash/aerials for ledge jumps...

MK's grabs, nair, and gimping, juggling. MK's grabs are hard for Marth to deal with, good damage, allow FANTASTIC reading for follow ups (look at any Dojo vs Marth vid from Genesis, he literally chaingrabs us with dthrow; he did it to me as well as Bardull and Mikehaze). Nair is ****ing fantastic. Transcended priority, reasonably good range, high damage, kill potential punishment move for any bad spacing or for gimping. With Marth's mediocre recovery, and MK's many set ups or just ledge tactics, Marth gets gimped to lose stocks on a more common basis than Marth would get the 'lucky' tipper to get an early stock; from Mk's various crap: dair, shuttle loop, etc
Marth forced to the ledge is in a predicement, especially if he has to handle the triple jump glitch. MK's dash grab that cover him for a distance Marth can't "reach" from the ledge, and fsmash that Marth cannot beat with any of his moves in a trade off, plus the high chance of a gimp... MK is able to Tornado above the ledge against Marth, and it is FREE DAMAGE for MK, unless Marth attempts to dolphin slash onto the stage (hello landing lag/punishment)
Marth's weakness of below him is amplified when MK has tornado, nair and uair to set up into things. Marth with his better aerial mobility can weave away from some things, but if he's forced to move towards the stage, Marth's options are severely limited, free damage, almost.
(All in all, quirks to both sides, but it would seem obvious MK has it better)

 

[DanGR]

Don't up B wrecklessly, tornado if he jumps in the air, he can bait up B, then he can uair/utilt/usmash you or run past you and pivot grab you if you dive directly back to the ground. Just SL OoS when you know it will connect.

Well, yeah. I know. I must sound like a total noob in this thread right now...

Thanks for helping out though.

 

[Jupz]

Nice info Shaya. I would say around 60:40 MK's favor. One thing we haven't looked at yet (and something I'm not experienced at in this matchup) is how easy it is for one to kill the other. Marth is heavier, but not by much, and MK has faster and less punishable kill moves (Dsmash, UpB). Plus he can gimp Marth more easily then vice versa.

 

[-Jumpman-]

guys don't worry



jumpman places well

For some reason, I think this is sarcasm.

Alright I'm done. It's clearly a lost cause trying to argue with you Jumpman as you said. I wish you wouldn't make assumptions about me not listening to you because I honestly am and was. But that's how it is. Also, I suggest you try giving this a read:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=236705

Anyways, I'm not a mk board frequenter but I'm casting my vote for 65:35.

I'm not going to read this. I'm just saying what I think about the matchup, no need to believe me.

Nice info Shaya. I would say around 60:40 MK's favor. One thing we haven't looked at yet (and something I'm not experienced at in this matchup) is how easy it is for one to kill the other. Marth is heavier, but not by much, and MK has faster and less punishable kill moves (Dsmash, UpB). Plus he can gimp Marth more easily then vice versa.

Kill moves? Well, if either of those moves hit Marth's shield, they get punished easily.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth boards - Your amazing logic and approach to this match-up discussion has made this sage proud.


Jumpman - Seriously?

 

[feardragon64]

Kill moves? Well, if either of those moves hit Marth's shield, they get punished easily.

What does up-b get punished by?

lol EL. It's not hard to argue with the logic we had from october/november 08. >>

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What does up-b get punished by?

MK Up-B isn't even a kill move if you know how to DI. It's also VERY easy to punish. SH Uair OoS says "hi"...you don't even need a brain to punish it. A shielded MK UpB is one of the easiest moves to punish.

Jumpman, you base things too much on your personal experience imo.

Edit: MKs fsmash is safe on shield.

 

[Plairnkk]

mk ***** marth

ive beaten NEO multiple times even though hes a far better player and put way more time into the game than I would ever even dream of wasting XD

cmon now, lets be honest here.

its at least 60/40 MK =D

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thank you John.

 

[Darxmarth23]

So 60-40?

Shaya here has a convincing argument imo.

 

[Steel]

it's 60 40 at best, i feel its 65:35. doesn't really matter, Mk's clearly got the advantage.

 

[etecoon]

So 60-40?

Shaya here has a convincing argument imo.

I feel like it's near 60:40 on most neutrals, probably a bit better for MK but I wouldn't put something stupid like 63:37, but if you take into account counter picking, 65:35 at least.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I would feel fine with either.

 

[-Jumpman-]

MK Up-B isn't even a kill move if you know how to DI. It's also VERY easy to punish. SH Uair OoS says "hi"...you don't even need a brain to punish it. A shielded MK UpB is one of the easiest moves to punish.

Jumpman, you base things too much on your personal experience imo.

Edit: MKs fsmash is safe on shield.

Well, I am basing things on what is possible on reaction against me. It might depend on my opponent, but if he can do it, more players can. And it's actually really funny most Dutch players agree with me on this matchup. Some of them even convinced me. And I'm not easily convinced of something. I'm not going to continue this discussion anyway. If you want to argue with me Gheb, PM me or something. Comments like "the players you dream of playing with" annoy the f*ck out of me, so yeah.

 

[TKD+ITA+Mar=]

Ok, first of all, when a WHOLE character board disagrees with you, it probably means you are wrong.

Most of the points have been covered, but there are a couple more.

MK's dtilt comes out twice as fast as Marth's (3-4 compared to 7), AND outranges it (IIRC by three pixels), not to mention it has transcendent priority and it has a high trip rate. This makes Marth's dtilt less effective in this match-up than it normally is (usually considered his second or third best move).

Also MK's small hurtbox can make it much more difficult to nair (especially against a grounded MK). In addition to this I find the MK can target Marth's blindspots easier than most character's due to his hitboxes and his small hurtboxes.

Not an impossible match-up, but MK's favor.