Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Max Ketchum]

doom, why do you want to mm someone who doesnt play the game? i doubt it will prove much and besides hes a nice guy. most of the time you call people out on mm on the boards like poyo for btyf, you lose. so just stop.

What? I beat Poyo, lmao. I lost one game 'cause I SDed at 60%. I don't think the Marth vs. MK matchup is nearly as bad as the Marths say it is. He says he knows exactly how it should be played, so I want to find out.

 

[Tin Man]

the doom, I know its off topic, but in ur signature, I would think Zero Suit Samus is a better icon for lust then snake.

Maybe put Luigi for jealousy (cause of Mario)

falco for pride

iunno for anger

 

[Pr0phetic]

So you guys seem to be a little... hesitant?

Your tools > ours in every way. You outspeed us, you outrange us, your outprioritize you. You can gimp Marth well, and he'll get ***** for playing too aggressie, he'll get ***** for too much defense. However, Marth wins in aerial mobility, Marth is heavier, his pivot grab is decently long, and he owns through grab releases.

65:35 MK

 

[phi1ny3]

NEXT MATCH-UP

Week 13 - Marth MikeHaze
​

Discussion will end on Sunday, August 9th.

*sigh* I remember when they used to do that for lucario Azen.
Anyways, I think it's pretty steep for marth, but workable, lots of people also forget his DB, which is also something kind of good in this MU, provided he can use it successfully.
Still seems like a wait n' bait game.

 

[Affinity]

I'll have the other previous match-ups updated soon.

*sigh* I remember when they used to do that for lucario Azen.

Tell them to stop copying me

 

[haloman800]

I'll get around to it.

Thank You.

 

[Magik0722]

Awesome ill look forward to the discussion, although im not sure how much i can contribute for it

 

[SmashChu]

Call me crazy, but I think Meta-Knight has a poor match up against Game and Watch. From what I've seen, he matches him on speed, beats him in priority and killing power (which is a big win for him as Meta-Knight is very light where Meta-Knight doesn't have as many powerful attacks). It was a Meta-Knight player who told me this, and it seems to work. I do really well against Meta-Knight with Game and Watch. It's easy mode.

 

[Jupz]

Were discussing Marth now, we've finished G&W

Whats the next discussion?


Also, don't stand too close to the edge while marth is on it because they like to fall, instantly fair and upB back Also be careful of UpB OOS when tornadoing.

 

[nevershootme]

marth... lemmie just say good luck DI'ing side-b... and that's pretty much the annoying tool of his arsenal since it's super hard to escape, only option is blocking until you get poked, does up-b OOS work against it?

just keep in mind that marth has a longer range in attack than you.

 

[Affinity]

does up-b OOS work against it?.

Yes, it does.

 

[phi1ny3]

You can also upB after DIing the 4th down hit (the one where he thrusts you a bunch of times), which most good marths will NEVER use anyways (It's pretty trashy).

 

[Kamikaze*]

Call me crazy, but I think Meta-Knight has a poor match up against Game and Watch. From what I've seen, he matches him on speed, beats him in priority and killing power (which is a big win for him as Meta-Knight is very light where Meta-Knight doesn't have as many powerful attacks). It was a Meta-Knight player who told me this, and it seems to work. I do really well against Meta-Knight with Game and Watch. It's easy mode.

Yeah, you're crazy.

 

[Toronto Joe]

the only way GW can keep up with MK is if the MK cant tech the dthrow ever,he shouldnt even be getting grabbed in this match anyways mehhh

 

[Affinity]

the only way GW can keep up with MK is if the MK cant tech the dthrow ever,he shouldnt even be getting grabbed in this match anyways mehhh

We're currently discussing Marth, not G&W anymore.

 

[DanGR]

From my experience in this matchup, MK should try to play really defensively and use ftilt to transition into "poking mode" when the Marth player stays on the ground for too long.

• Use Upb at any time during your pokes if Marth goes to the air or you predict he'll be vulnerable.
• Roll away/shield if he continues to shield (dolphin slash is likely). Then just play really defensively again until a better situation for poking arises.

That's pretty much what I do, at least. It has worked well thus far.

 

[Palpi]

So you guys seem to be a little... hesitant?

Your tools > ours in every way. You outspeed us, you outrange us, your outprioritize you. You can gimp Marth well, and he'll get ***** for playing too aggressie, he'll get ***** for too much defense. However, Marth wins in aerial mobility, Marth is heavier, his pivot grab is decently long, and he owns through grab releases.

65:35 MK

You are making it worse than it actually is. It is no worse than 6-4 in MK advantage.

 

[UTDZac]

Decided to subscribe to this thread because my name keeps getting brought up.

That and I keep seeing some false information posted about G&W from time-to-time, just want to clear things up when they happen.

Oh and imho, MK is G&W's worst match up.

 

[Max Ketchum]

You think it's worse than Snake and Marth? <_<

 

[OverLade]

GaW still manages to beat Snake and Marth at the highest level. But at the highest level GaW can get outspaced at basically every turn (by MK). You can outsmart Snake and Marth (as GaW) and put them into positions that you can punish. You can't really force MK to do anything in the matchup. He only gets punished when he chooses to.

edit: Whoops didn't make that too clear.

 

[Max Ketchum]

I'm aware. Still, 5 hits being a stock is dreadful. While he's easier to punish, Snake's ftilt is still relatively safe against GW. I don't see how GW can punish Marth, either. MK may be worse, but I dunno. It's Zac's opinion, anyway.

 

[UTDZac]

You think it's worse than Snake and Marth? <_<

G&W vs. Snake is more even or more advantageous for G&W than MK vs. Snake is more even or advantageous for MK. However, this only applies if the G&W understands the matchup and knows why it's in his favor.

EDIT: Also, G&W has a hard time against Marth because G&W usually likes to approach/do damage with multi-hit aerials and Marth has UpB to stop that. SDI and OOS options for Marth make the matchup really hard.

GaW still manages to beat Snake and Marth at the highest level. But at the highest level GaW can get outspaced at basically every turn. You can outsmart GaW and Marth and put them into positions that you can punish. You can't really force MK to do anything in the matchup. He only gets punished when he chooses to.

I agree with this for the most part.

 

[DMG]

MK gets punished by G&W when he makes a mistake. G&W can't really put much pressure onto MK to make that said mistake though.

I honestly think MK is now too. Every other bad matchup with G&W has some variables or trade offs he can abuse (Juggling characters like Olimar, Diddy, Snake) or for Marth he can at least try to edge guard fairly well. With MK, it's kinda like I'm out ranged, I can't put much pressure on him to make him make mistakes, so I have to approach or hope he messes up and lets me punish him.

 

[smasher01]

what happend to the mk vs marth discussion? not that talking about g@w bothers me just sayin
i still need more info lol

 

[Sph34r]

Like you need to discuss G&W vs MK -_-

Lol.

 

[DanGR]

We should get back on track.

Would anyone mind commenting on my post at the top of the page? Should I be using that game plan?

 

[OverLade]

We should get back on track.

Would anyone mind commenting on my post at the top of the page? Should I be using that game plan?

Alternate between poking, dashgrabs, dash attacks, and tornados.

If he thinks you're going to Dash attack, he'll either shield or sidestep. If he thinks you're going to dashgrab he'll either sidestep or attack. Torando will beat Side and Attack, but if he shields you lose. But once he feels nado pressured he can be dashgrabbed.

This is how you control the matchup basically, alternating between this depending on what marth is expecting. But I wouldn't recommend directly trying to poke as you get outranged on the ground, I'd stay just outside of his range while trying to outsmart him mixup wise.

 

[Steel]

You aren't out ranged on the ground cept for Marth's fsmash.

Redhalberd if we think MK is going to dash attack/grab (doesnt really matter) Marth is going to dash into dancing blade to intercept you or pivot grab you. None of this sidestep nonsense. You should very rarely ever dash approach.

i'd recommend just camping. ****s marth over hard

 

[OverLade]

You aren't out ranged on the ground cept for Marth's fsmash.

Redhalberd if we think MK is going to dash attack/grab (doesnt really matter) Marth is going to dash into dancing blade to intercept you or pivot grab you. None of this sidestep nonsense. You should very rarely ever dash approach.

i'd recommend just camping. ****s marth over hard

Either way, you can get a marth player to shield if they think you're going to torando, which allows you to dashgrab. Sure camping works, but MK doesn't have to camp against any character and if you actually want to play aggressive, you just have to win mixups.

 

[Steel]

Yeah tornado ***** Marth. If he goes into the air he has practically zero options vs it. If you ever see him trying to camp you with aerials just tornado his ****

 

[OverLade]

He can technically UpB (Which is so risky it's not worth it) or Counter but yeah it works too well. I've had marth players Upb directly out of tornado though, how does that work?

 

[Steel]

If the Marth manages to DI to a certain part of the tornado he can up b or counter, but it's hard to do and not reliable at all.

 

[DanGR]

Dash attack/grabbing doesn't seem very safe at all versus Marth, even if he predicts a tornado. He outranges them with every attack, sidestepping dodges them, Marth has great OoS options for dash attack, he's got a good pivotgrab that'll outrange them, his aerials will beat them out, and dancing blade is a great interrupter against both. He'll have to shield for a grab to work, and even then Meta Knight shouldn't be using tornado when Marth is just sitting on the ground anyways.

Approaching Marth in general just seems like a horrible idea, whether that be through dash attacking, dash grabbing, or really anything besides the occasional poke with a really safe ftilt or dtilt. Fsmash can outspace and tipper you if you try to zone with fairs too much. Everything else besides Meta Knights pokes just get torn up out of shield if he approaches.

 

[OverLade]

Dash attack/grabbing doesn't seem very safe at all versus Marth, even if he predicts a tornado. He outranges them with every attack, sidestepping dodges them, Marth has great OoS options for dash attack, he's got a good pivotgrab that'll outrange them, his aerials will beat them out, and dancing blade is a great interrupter against both. He'll have to shield for a grab to work, and even then Meta Knight shouldn't be using tornado when Marth is just sitting on the ground anyways.

Approaching Marth in general just seems like a horrible idea, whether that be through dash attacking, dash grabbing, or really anything besides the occasional poke with a really safe ftilt or dtilt. Fsmash can outspace and tipper you if you try to zone with fairs too much. Everything else besides Meta Knights pokes just get torn up out of shield.

The idea is to pressure marth into thinking you're going to do one thing and doing something else (basically outsmarting your opponent). And If I said use dash attack at all that was a mistake, I know it doesnt work.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Alternate between poking, dashgrabs, dash attacks, and tornados.

If he thinks you're going to Dash attack, he'll either shield or sidestep. If he thinks you're going to dashgrab he'll either sidestep or attack. Torando will beat Side and Attack, but if he shields you lose. But once he feels nado pressured he can be dashgrabbed.

This is how you control the matchup basically, alternating between this depending on what marth is expecting. But I wouldn't recommend directly trying to poke as you get outranged on the ground, I'd stay just outside of his range while trying to outsmart him mixup wise.

Pokes on his shield get punished by up-bs. Dashgrabs are really unsafe because you have to approach Marth. Dash attacks I wouldn't recommend either if the Marth is good at spacing. Never use Tornado to rack damage on Marth. He'll up-b if it's used on his shield and if you press B during the nado he'll up-b you out of it.

If Marth thinks you're going to dashgrab, he will grab you or use side-b (simple as that, watch MikeHAZE). Side-b is the safer choice here because he can you cancel it and dash away.

Like I said, Tornado isn't reliable at all. If he feels Tornado pressures him, he should roll away or up-b. Shielding in place or spot dodging is extremely risky and not a good choice at all.

The idea is to pressure marth into thinking you're going to do one thing and doing something else (basically outsmarting your opponent). And If I said use dash attack at all that was a mistake, I know it doesnt work.

This is basically a guide on how to play a good Marth. Try to bait him and make use of this (his up-b for example). I think the most dangerous moves for you in the matchup are side-b and up-b.

I'd recommend spacing against a Marth (just spacing, not hitting). By doing this he won't be able to entirely control the stage. If the Marth likes spacing with full hops, fh fair, dash up to him and shield, whatever he does, remember it and try to anticipate next time. Using up-b get him off stage is extremely easy if Marth full hops to space, wait for it.

Marth can grab release you into very dangerous stuff. I believe it was fair, dash attack (the tipper kills EXTREMELY early), up-b, dair and up smash. So never let Marth grab you.

Many people have been telling you should poke Marth with f-tilt, down tilt or other moves. Do not do this, Marth will up-b you. You should always keep a distance against Marth and try to punish his spacing or predict his SHs and punish with dash attacks etc.

I've also seen people recommend using dash grabs. Well, by playing defensively you won't get those grabs because of what I said earlier. Using dash grabs is also very dangerous. Marth will never run up to you and shield, so don't wait for that either, don't try to grab him out of his approach. It's not like Marth will suddenly use shield a lot because you nado him two times. He has the tools to punish what you do, so don't do this.

I will now proceed with the things you should be doing against Marth.

1. Space, never let him gain control of the stage. You have priority, so if he makes one mistake, you have a free hit.

2. Use tornado to punish (not rack damage) spot dodges if you get him to. Just hitting the Marth is enough.

3. Try to get to know what moves Marth uses in situations and outplay him. It could become a guessing game, but Marth's CAN be quite predictable.

4. Gimp Marth low. Marths tend to recover low and save their up-b. You'll know if they don't. Just get the Marth off stage and drop then dair etc. You know the drill.

5. Safe up-b OoS. This is your best killing move if the Marth is good at spacing.

I might add some stuff later.

I think this matchup is 55 - 45 MK or even. If the Marth reads you and uses moves extremely well (spacing etc.) you lose. I know saying this is risky, but MK doesn't have a lot of options against Marth.

 

[Steel]

Don't use tilts, he'll up b you? >___>

MK doesn't have a lot of options vs Marth? >___> You destroy everyone of his approach options. All he has is baiting when it comes to approaching.

MK's dtilt outranges his landing fair, just walk away from it. Ftilt is also extremely useful like always in this match.

If he's spacing with full hops just **** him with tornado or up b.

His grab releases are: fair, db, up b, dash attack, down air at a specific point on the stage and you have to time a double jump frame perfect

No way is this match close to even lol

 

[-Jumpman-]

Ehm... Marth can do exactly the same you know...

Edit: Wow f*ck, why am I even taking your post seriously.

 

[Steel]

Because I've done the match extensively on both sides with top players probably

 

[-Jumpman-]

Depends on what you call top players, as I can say exactly the same.

 

[∫unk]

Jumpman... unfortunately, Steel has way more experience than you :/

MK vs Marth isn't even. Tournament results and video/moveset analysis proves this.

And your post shows that you really don't understand high level Marth vs MK, which is funny because you could easily deduce it on your own by watching Neo or MikeHAZE fight M2K/Dojo