Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[-Jumpman-]

Well, no. It means they disagree.

 

[∫unk]

MK Up-B isn't even a kill move if you know how to DI. It's also VERY easy to punish. SH Uair OoS says "hi"...you don't even need a brain to punish it. A shielded MK UpB is one of the easiest moves to punish.

Jumpman, you base things too much on your personal experience imo.

Edit: MKs fsmash is safe on shield.

from my experience all of mk's kill options are viable on marth but like how every high level matchup goes, none of them are spammable. up b kills if it's unexpected but thats the only time it would work anyways (both grounded and aerial).

if marth didnt have to recover it would be pretty even. but because he does, and there's counterpicks which heavily favor mk, it's more like a hard 60:40.

again, if you show ignorance but claim intelligence, people are going to call you out and ridicule you jumpman. unfortunately you're not known as a legitimate player, your region isn't known to be good, and you don't have significant high level tournament experience, so the best you can do is prove yourself through intelligent discussion. you haven't shown in these discussions the ability to do that (example: failure to respond to my posts that break down your statements on the matchup).

 

[-Jumpman-]

unfortunately you're not known as a legitimate player

Irrelevant.

your region isn't known to be good

Based on persumptions.

and you don't have significant high level tournament experience

Except for the fact that I have played the best player in Europe a lot (which will be confirmed after this weekend).

so the best you can do is prove yourself through intelligent discussion

Like I said, it's your loss if you don't believe me. I don't have to prove myself at all.

you haven't shown in these discussions the ability to do that (example: failure to respond to my posts that break down your statements on the matchup)

Being annoyed by your statements can be called "failure". Good job man. You convinced me.

people are going to call you out and ridicule you jumpman

Sorry, I am REALLY offended now. I wanted to have an awesome e-rep...

 

[feardragon64]

MK Up-B isn't even a kill move if you know how to DI. It's also VERY easy to punish. SH Uair OoS says "hi"...you don't even need a brain to punish it. A shielded MK UpB is one of the easiest moves to punish.

I think I just don't see it coming usually and have bad reaction time, but makes sense. Still, fsmash and dsmash are safe on block. Maybe not dsmash, but it's at least difficult to punish when spaced.

And jumpman: just because someone can do it on you doesn't mean anyone can do it anyone. It just means anyone can do it on you. In other words, did you consider the possibility you're just not doing it right?
Anyways, it's not just the Marth boards. Seems like hefty number of mk's agree too. Renown mk's.

Lastly, jumpman let me put it this way. Yes, we don't have to listen to you. And no, you don't have to refute our points. But if you don't want to argue our points everbody is going to ignore your points because you're not responding to anything. It's like if I came in and said, guys 1+1=3. If everyone else in the room just looks at me and says no, it's 2, then the burden of proof lies with me. Even if it didn't, if I'm not answering their responses to why 1+1=2, and keep insisting that it equals 3, people are going to realize that I'm just being dumb and disregard everything I'm saying.
So once again, no we don't have to listen to you and you don't have to argue our points. But if you want to go around giving your opinion it's in your interest to back it up when it's questioned or your opinion becomes a hell of a lot less valued and has less of an impact. If that doesn't matter to you though then by all means respond like you've been responding so far and assuming that everything said is an attack on you rather than your argument.

tl;dr for jumpman: keep tossing out your opinion and not backing it up when challenged if you want people to think you don't know what you're talking about every time you post.

 

[Steel]

I don't see why anyone is wasting their time with jumpman at this point.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I think I just don't see it coming usually and have bad reaction time, but makes sense. Still, fsmash and dsmash are safe on block. Maybe not dsmash, but it's at least difficult to punish when spaced.

And jumpman: just because someone can do it on you doesn't mean anyone can do it anyone. It just means anyone can do it on you. In other words, did you consider the possibility you're just not doing it right?
Anyways, it's not just the Marth boards. Seems like hefty number of mk's agree too. Renown mk's.

I did consider that possibilty. Stop questioning me and say where I'm wrong. I believe one of the things you said was it's easy to bait the up-b. This shouldn't be taken into consideration. Baiting and mindgaming aren't part of theoretical discussions. We wouldn't want discussions with "He will bait me but then I will know so I will wait and counter but then he knows I know and then he will punish me".

 

[∫unk]

but steel matchups are a matter of belief

 

[adumbrodeus]

I believe one of the things you said was it's easy to bait the up-b. This shouldn't be taken into consideration. Baiting and mindgaming aren't part of theoretical discussions. We wouldn't want discussions with "He will bait me but then I will know so I will wait and counter but then he knows I know and then he will punish me".

The fact that a character can easily produce a situation where the only possible response is a move that you can punish so you have the ability to abuse that situation to force the opponent to use that move (aka baiting) is A CHARACTER attribute.


Trying to use a situation that a character creates by it's attributes isn't mindgaming, it's the top of the metagame because match-up knowledge is assumed. Mindgaming is successful pattern-reading and prediction.


Furthermore, you can discuss character attributes in terms of what makes mindgaming opponents easier in terms of a match-up by simply increasing the chance that you predict right ("option-select", where you have one move that beats several of your opponent's moves is a great example).


I've discussed this at length in my thread.


So mindgames potential (aka, the character tools that improve the chances of a successful prediction, or improve the situation obtained upon successful prediction) are COMPLETELY based on character attributes, and both necessary and proper for match-up discussions. It's only when you assume they'll get it right instead of looking at the odds that it becomes a problem.

 

[∫unk]

i hear hylian is doing an open invitation for the sbr... anyone can get in! just talk like you know what you're saying, ignore others counterpoints, claim you are good with no evidence, and you're in!

here, i've done a copy paste format for you guys... just repeat these posts in your favorite character forum then show these as example posts in your application to the sbr! make sure you edit the parts that are bolded...

This is basically a guide on how to play a good (insert whatever character you're discussing here). Try to bait him and make use of this (his up-b for example). I think the most dangerous moves for you in the matchup are side-b and up-b.

NOTE: KEEP EVERYTHING THE SAME REGARDLESS OF THE MATCHUP. SIDE B AND UP B ARE ALWAYS THE MOST DANGEROUS MOVES.

I'd recommend spacing against a (insert whatever character you're discussing here) (just spacing, not hitting). By doing this they won't be able to entirely control the stage

(insert whatever character you're discussing here) can grab release MK into very dangerous stuff. I don't understand which options are dangerous, or what the best one is, but they're dangerous stuff!!! I believe it was fair, dash attack (the tipper kills EXTREMELY early), up-b, dair and up smash. So never let (insert whatever character you're discussing here) grab you.

Many people have been telling you should poke (insert whatever character you're discussing here) with f-tilt, down tilt or other moves. Do not do this, they will up-b you. You should always keep a distance against (insert whatever character you're discussing here) and try to punish his spacing or predict his SHs and punish with dash attacks etc.

AFTER THIS, FEEL FREE TO WRITE WHATEVER YOU WANT FOR A FEW PARAGRAPHS. IN THE END THOUGH YOU SHOULD WRITE...

I think this matchup is (Insert the commonly agreed SWF Matchup +10/-10 in either direction). If the (insert whatever character you're discussing here) reads you and uses moves extremely well (spacing etc.) you lose. I know saying this is risky, but MK doesn't have a lot of options against (insert whatever character you're discussing here).

 

[feardragon64]

I don't see why anyone is wasting their time with jumpman at this point.

Cause I was practicing and a level 9 snake did half of a wargasm on me without the shieldbreak. I'm emo and have nothing else to do since I just finished summer classes. =\

I did consider that possibilty. Stop questioning me and say where I'm wrong. I believe one of the things you said was it's easy to bait the up-b. This shouldn't be taken into consideration. Baiting and mindgaming aren't part of theoretical discussions. We wouldn't want discussions with "He will bait me but then I will know so I will wait and counter but then he knows I know and then he will punish me".

I understand what you're saying but saying that up+b is the solution to every single situation that MK hits Marth's shield is ridiculous. That kind of logic would make this Marth's advantage. Especially since you were saying poking wasn't safe. If MK couldn't poke Marth, nor could he hit Marth's shield, and you're saying MK has to approach Marth, why would this be even? From what you're saying, Marth could sit in his shield until MK approached, then dolphin slash almost every single move, including pokes. The moves he couldn't hit with up+b OoS he would just do with SH uair(shuttle loop), DB, or grab. If that's the case then my vote goes 70:30 Marth.
But if we're going to try and be a little bit realistic here then I'm going with 65:35. I'm cool with 60:40 though since I think it's somewhere around 63:37.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Heh.

I don't think you would ever want to bait out Mks shuttle loop. Let alone any of his other specials.

Everyone knows that Marth is weak when he is above you. And Mk has a lagless u-air.
U-air can be followed up by numerous things. But I see shuttle loop performed more often then anything else. Shuttle can be dangerous. A smart Mk wouldn't just throw it out so it can be shielded and punished. They would get under you and in the air.

@Fear: I think there should be a decimal point added in there somewhere.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I was merely saying up-b counter a few moves (shield pokes and nado).

Junky, I post differently in the SBR (for a reason).

The fact that a character can easily produce a situation where the only possible response is a move that you can punish so you have the ability to abuse that situation to force the opponent to use that move (aka baiting) is A CHARACTER attribute.


Trying to use a situation that a character creates by it's attributes isn't mindgaming, it's the top of the metagame because match-up knowledge is assumed. Mindgaming is successful pattern-reading and prediction.


Furthermore, you can discuss character attributes in terms of what makes mindgaming opponents easier in terms of a match-up by simply increasing the chance that you predict right ("option-select", where you have one move that beats several of your opponent's moves is a great example).


I've discussed this at length in my thread.


So mindgames potential (aka, the character tools that improve the chances of a successful prediction, or improve the situation obtained upon successful prediction) are COMPLETELY based on character attributes, and both necessary and proper for match-up discussions. It's only when you assume they'll get it right instead of looking at the odds that it becomes a problem.

Well, I disagree with your definition of mindgames, I think it's provoking movement and punishing this.

But yes, being able to bait is character specific in some cases. But I just wanted to leave this out of the discussion because baiting can be read too. I'll note this as a positive aspect in this matchup (even though I don't entirely agree).

Everyone knows that Marth is weak when he is above you. And Mk has a lagless u-air.
U-air can be followed up by numerous things. But I see shuttle loop performed more often then anything else. Shuttle can be dangerous. A smart Mk wouldn't just throw it out so it can be shielded and punished. They would get under you and in the air.

That's correct. However, getting Marth in the air is quite hard without grabs. If MK manages to get Marth in the air he has a huge advantage though.

 

[Steel]

Darxmarth shuttle loop is baited at tourny play, it's punishable if you're on the ground.

BTW a word to Marths: don't waste your second jump ever on stage, good MK's look for this and will up b you leaving you unable to recover since all you have is your up b.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Lol Steel, that has been known since the beginning of Smash.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Darxmarth shuttle loop is baited at tourny play, it's punishable if you're on the ground.

BTW a word to Marths: don't waste your second jump ever on stage, good MK's look for this and will up b you leaving you unable to recover since all you have is your up b.

I know that you can shield it and punish it when you are grounded. I didn't know that in typical tourney play it was purposely baited... My bad Missouri isn't typical.

As an Mk main, I've never had anyone try to bait out my shuttle loop. But whenever I go against Marth I just want him in the air above me.

I typically utelize my tilts, grabs, u-air with shuttle loop, and my perfect shield. Along with some of the other moves that are staples to Mk's metagame.

 

[Steel]

And some of the Marth's here don't have all the experience in the world, thus why I wasn't contributing it to the actual MU discussion and just directing it at them.

Please don't try and make fun of one of my posts when all of yours are clearly full of ignorance. Neither side is agreeing with you, you're just proving you don't know how to discuss these things.

 

[∫unk]

jumpman my friends in the sbr say that ur pretty much the same LOL

no im not saying who and yes i have a lot of friends in the sbr

and youre representing the sbr when you post outside of it.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, I disagree with your definition of mindgames, I think it's provoking movement and punishing this.

"Provoking" is actually part of what I was talking about.

Understand what provoking is.


It's observing, "oh, my opponent does this when I do this", then being like, "let me do this so my opponent will do what I observed that he does and punish him for it". Of course understand that because characters have different sets of options, it can be much easier to bait in some match-ups, because recognizing a situation where the opponent will do x becomes so much easier. This is one example, since marth basically has on two options, shield or up b.


It's applying something that you know causes your opponent to do something resulting in them doing it and getting punished for it.


Since it all comes down to predicting what your opponent will do in a situation, but predicting is more general, prediction based on observation is a better way of referring to mindgames.

Yomi also works.


For a little addition insight:

A lot of people, a lot of smashers here, aren't even aware of one of the most basic functions of high level play. You will ALWAYS see people discussing tech skill and mindgames. Mindgames, the term at least, has become a joke throwaway word for the most part, because so few people actually realize what mingaming is and it is often misunderstood. Still, all you see are topics about those 2 things, but never do you come across a thread talking about observation.

EVERYTHING in smash comes down to observation. EVERYTHING. Did I say that enough? I don't think I did. Once again, EVERYTHING branches from your ability to process as much data as possible visually. Most players play the game half blind, to be blunt and honest. They look only at their character, and focus on trying to get those hot, stinky, wet, nasty combos. Everybody loves dem combos!!! All they see is the most basic set of information going on in the match, which is their character's placement in conjunction to their opponent. The thing is, there is so much more out there to look for. For starters, why do most players focus on their own character in the first place? What information do you get by focusing on your character? You are making your own inputs, so you *should* know what you are doing most of the time without needing to look at your character. The focus should CLEARLY be on your opponent. This is a small tip that goes A LONG way, but you never ever hear it discussed. Of course, from time to time you might stumble a wavedash or not do that dash when you hit the ground like you wanted to or what not, but even if the focus is on your opponent you can still see your character. Keep in mind you can see the whole screen and focus your attention on one spot. You don't have to predict your own moves, or look for your mistakes as much as your opponent. The ability to be able to see through your opponents strategies and take advantage of their mistakes is a lot harder to determine than your own.

I first began to notice the power of observation by ****ing around. My marth was crap, total and utter crap about a year ago. I didn't have jack **** tech skill with him, didn't really know any combos or setups and what not. Complete garbage. One day though, I got bored. So instead of trying to beat my friends in a match, I was just trying to make them look stupid. I didn't realize this, but it was the first time I gave my entire attention to my opponent. All the sudden, I'm winning by spamming well spaced smashes at oppertune times. All the sudden, I'm seeing and responding to missed techs with smashes. My opponents, while not as good as I were, were not horrible players. There was no reason in my mind why this was happening, I was not just winning, I was ******, by spamming no more than 6 attacks. I later dubbed this strategy the "Make you feel stupid Marth."

So how did that work? How was I able to see more all of the sudden? Simple really. I changed my goals. My focus was only to get in tippers and smashes. I limited myself to just one thing, and when I did that, I could see ALL of the openings for that one thing. Normally I would look at the big picture, and I wouldn't notice all of the small things going on. I was clouded by thinking I should have to do some combo, or some lead in, when the most obvious and most effective answer was right in front of my face. Once I realized this, I knew what I could do to improve my observation.

MookieRah's explanation on this, and probably one of the best reads on the improve compilation.

But yes, being able to bait is character specific in some cases. But I just wanted to leave this out of the discussion because baiting can be read too. I'll note this as a positive aspect in this matchup (even though I don't entirely agree).

Actually it's character-specific, period.

Granted, characters have a general list of options that tend to work (aka, good moves), but baiting is in reaction to the opponent, and what they can do, it's entirely based on options, and every character has a unique set of options, so no two characters are exactly the same to bait.

To truly be accurate, you have to analyze each situation.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Junky, good job. Now we know people leak :D Anyway, most people in the SBR are the same as I. But I'm not going to discuss this with you.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I would say the other marths have your arguments cornered...

they got dat boom boom pow

 

[-Jumpman-]

Good job Marths (no sarcasm). Seems like you know the matchup well. And because no one is willing to take anything seriously, I won't post here about this matchup anymore.

 

[UTDZac]

I find it interesting that there is a lot of heat in the Marth matchup on the MK boards just like there is on the G&W boards. We've been having fights recently.

Marth is a trouble character, lets ban him =)


Also I had a question, as MK how often do you find yourself getting grab by a Marth? As G&W I get grabbed quite a bit.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I find it interesting that there is a lot of heat in the Marth matchup on the MK boards just like there is on the G&W boards. We've been having fights recently.

Marth is a trouble character, lets ban him =)


Also I had a question, as MK how often do you find yourself getting grab by a Marth? As G&W I get grabbed quite a bit.

Marths air release on Mk....

It can be harsh right? I play crappy marths and they still think grabs are horrible...

 

[Steel]

I find it interesting that there is a lot of heat in the Marth matchup on the MK boards just like there is on the G&W boards. We've been having fights recently.

Marth is a trouble character, lets ban him =)


Also I had a question, as MK how often do you find yourself getting grab by a Marth? As G&W I get grabbed quite a bit.

Marth does land a lot of grabs. He's got a lot of gimmicks and his pivot grab is huge. A lot of Marth players center their style around "roll into me!" and are always ready to pivot grab/dancing blade you out of that.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Good job Marths (no sarcasm). Seems like you know the matchup well. And because no one is willing to take anything seriously, I won't post here about this matchup anymore.

Hey! I've been taking it seriously, you're mean! j/k (OK, well up to this point anyway, I take my match-ups quite seriously, but you said it, so, all bets are off).

Anyway, I'd be interested in your commentary on my thread, since it sort of disagrees with how most of smashboards views match-ups, but I've generally gotten positive feedback.

Especially in regards to this specific match-up.


And please use you SBR voice

Spoiler

lol

I find it interesting that there is a lot of heat in the Marth matchup on the MK boards just like there is on the G&W boards. We've been having fights recently.

Marth is a trouble character, lets ban him =)


Also I had a question, as MK how often do you find yourself getting grab by a Marth? As G&W I get grabbed quite a bit.

We take our match-ups pretty seriously, most of the marth mains try to be knowledgeable about the game in general so, we have our opinions.


You really technically shouldn't get grabbed by marth as MK unless you messed up your spacing, but... it happens occasionally. Marth's grab range is pretty good and that's why it works. And of course, marth players LOVE baiting you into a grab and his pivot grab range is huge. Not to mention the mix-ups that lead to grab.

 

[feardragon64]

Look Junkinthetrunk, I'm NOT going to reply to that. Way too much bs.

I have no idea right... heh... You don't have to believe me of course, I'm not going to argue with you anyway.

Like I said, do what you want with this information, ignore it, put me on your ignore list, I don't care.

Look, I'm not even going to try continuing this, it won't end anyway and I won't agree just like you won't.

I'm not going to read this. I'm just saying what I think about the matchup, no need to believe me.

And I'm not easily convinced of something. I'm not going to continue this discussion anyway. If you want to argue with me Gheb, PM me or something.

Junky, good job. Now we know people leak :D Anyway, most people in the SBR are the same as I. But I'm not going to discuss this with you.

Good job Marths (no sarcasm). Seems like you know the matchup well. And because no one is willing to take anything seriously, I won't post here about this matchup anymore.

This is why people keep responding. Just in case you were wondering. If you don't want to argue then why do you keep posting and giving responses that try to defend your points without discussing the concerns raised?

 

[Omni]

snip

I think I'm in love.

On another note, NEO is really ****ing good at this match-up.

And just a word from a fellow veteran, I wouldn't go into too much detail in regards to match-ups. You truly get the most through experience and experience speaks for itself. Anything outside of it that isn't basic or universal knowledge is just theory that may or may not apply itself to a given situation. Your best bet to to take what you know works for sure, remove the things you know don't work, and learn the feel of the match-up yourself.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think I'm in love.

On another note, NEO is really ****ing good at this match-up.

And just a word from a fellow veteran, I wouldn't go into too much detail in regards to match-ups. You truly get the most through experience and experience speaks for itself. Anything outside of it that isn't basic or universal knowledge is just theory that may or may not apply itself to a given situation. Your best bet to to take what you know works for sure, remove the things you know don't work, and learn the feel of the match-up yourself.

Honestly, match-up numbers are most important in understanding the community as whole, things like tier list and (dare I say it) ban discussions.

Beyond that, they really just create a general rule about what match-ups you'll want to avoid for individual smashers, something that is also easily served by telling the match-up attributes, and are a convenient reference for "good vs. bad".

 

[Staco]

MU are rated for the highest level of play.
So yes, you have to take the M2k vs. Haze matches!
This is the highest level of play atm, theres no better Marth, not better MK. The matches were close to even, so yeah, its close to even at all!

The Up B vs. Tilt thing doesnt work.
But he can punish your Tilts very easy with Tilts and Aerials.

You shouldnt forget that Marth can hit MK through the Nado with Aerials. Should be a good option at all.

This alone shows you have no idea what you're talking about. Marth can limit options but Mk limits Marth's way better.

MK still doesnt get a lot of options vs. a good Marth! Just like he said.

And don't poke? Marth's up+b OoS against MK's pokes like dtilt, ftilt, etc. is terrible. Why? Because it whiffs! If Marth is up+b'ing OoS as much as you suggest, he's going to get completely ***** when MK starts baiting it.

Marth will use Up B OoS only, if he is sure to hit with it (if the attack of the Mk allready began). Its the same like MK vs. GaW. But yeah, I also think Marth got better ways to punish tilts. (aerials) Up B OoS also doesnt work at very low %, because of the landing lag. Gives the MK a free hit.

Sure, if the MK is just sitting there on top of Marth's shield with nado, Marth can up+b it. But most intelligent MK's don't do that. If Marth shields it, they move away and reset the situation. Marth doesn't have enough time to punish it at that point.

A good player doesnt wait the tornado to finish. He follows him and shields if he changes directions. Even DDD can get a MK, which is using tornado like that. Marth is way faster! If he Nados close to you and you are in the mod to shield, you get a free grab, if you are doing it right!

And also I'm 150% certain MK's dtilt and ftilt outrange Marth's DS.

The range isnt far enough to hit Marth with it, without getting in DS range. But its unsafe. We are humans and no robots, its hard to consider perfectly if its in range or not. Else Dittos would end 0% both all the time.

About punishing nado. Why do you all just think about the two options Up B and Shielding?
Marth got long ranged attacks, which actually beat the nado, if timed right!

MK cant camp Marth that easy. He misses one thing called air speed.

And MK cant approach much better than Marth, if the Marth is doing it right. (I think you dont do it right)
Were talking about the HIGHEST LEVEL of play! Look at the DDDs, every DDD except 2 or 3 get destroyed by MKs, but there are some High level DDDs (Atomsk, Lain, Co18), which can handle them much better than all the other DDDs.

And if the MU is that bad, so why can Mikehaze also beat players like M2K or Dojo. I dont think that Mikehaze did it, because he is so much better than them, since he only gets 5th place at tourneys like hobo (with MK banned, which makes it easier for him). The MU just isnt that bad. Thats why Mikehaze could play close to even matches vs. M2K and Dojo.

mk ***** marth

ive beaten NEO multiple times even though hes a far better player and put way more time into the game than I would ever even dream of wasting XD

cmon now, lets be honest here.

its at least 60/40 MK =D

You cant rate MU like this. All MUs arent rated in this system. Else some MUs had to be much worse than they are actually, if you rate them like this.

Ok, first of all, when a WHOLE character board disagrees with you, it probably means you are wrong.

Wolf boards think MK vs. Wolf is 60:40, are they right now?
I told them its sth. like 70:30 but they all flamed me down and said that its sth. like 60:40.
So Wolf vs. MK is better than Marth vs. MK in your + Wolf boards opinion, nice ****. =D
Ill better pick Wolf instead of Marth to get a good placing at a tourney with much MKs.

again, if you show ignorance but claim intelligence, people are going to call you out and ridicule you jumpman. unfortunately you're not known as a legitimate player, your region isn't known to be good, and you don't have significant high level tournament experience, so the best you can do is prove yourself through intelligent discussion.

Dont forget Genesis! I remember all americans thinking and telling that europe sucks and stuff like that. Nah, who got 2nd at Genesis in Melee?
So dont do the wrong mistake again for Brawl! And jumpman is placing good at tourneys here and got a lot of experience vs. the best Marth player over here.

The european Marth, which player jumpman is talking about, does stuff which I never see Mikehaze or Neo doing, but it works. So maybe Mikehaze and Neo just doesnt know all the tricks vs. MK. (this doesnt mean that they are worse, I dont know about this, it just says, that they arent perfect and that they maybe dont do everything in the best way; so you shouldnt rate the MU with only looking at Haze and Neo)

Lol Zac, so the Marth boards seem a little bit to be like the lower Char boards which tended to rate their char like a much better char? Just that the Marth boards are other way around, rating him lower than he actually is. ^^

Its 60:40 or 55:45 in MKs opinion. (Else Wolf is better vs. MK than Marth, haha. )

 

[Shaya]

MK's tilts outrange Marth's ds.

I forgot to mention in my original post, but Shuttle Loop OoS is detrimental to Marth's pressure game.
As Marth does not have any long range spacing moves with multiple hits, his general strategy of pressure is ff aerial, to a dtilt/shield/ds/roll back/spot dodge/baited grab to something. Any such 'pressure' Marth can apply with aerials to well spaced dtilts is lost when MK can shuttle loop you, and a well spaced dtilt IS BEATEN by shuttle loop (unlike Mk's well spaced dtilt NOT being punishable). "High level" Marths can over come this, but it's a huge gamble the entire time... Marth has to literally has to guess by having dolphin slash in his back pocket as to not have MK just shuttle loop OoS everything you ever do to him (due to fear 'factor').
Apart of my "marth approaching MK" part, that I didn't initially mention.

Shuttle loop actually isn't too easy for Marth to handle... IF you're able to bait a shuttle loop right next to you, sure, but at Marth's dtilt range, can be difficult to punish if they glide effectively. It's still something Marth can punish mid-level MKs QUITE A LOT; but less often otherwise.

And I'll say it again, if M2K is tornadoing your shield above your head, you can't dolphin slash out, I am being 100% serious.
55:45 would be a pretty huge stretch.

 

[OverLade]

And I'll say it again, if M2K is tornadoing your shield above your head, you can't dolphin slash out, I am being 100% serious.
55:45 would be a pretty huge stretch.

Freudian slip? I swear this always happens.

 

[Shaya]

No.

Not at all.

No other MK ive ever played has scared me with their use of tornado as M2K has.
MKs need to learn how to **** shields.

 

[OverLade]

I mean I think it would've been more appropriate to say MK in general, not M2K particularly, as we're learning the matchup for all MK mains, not just M2K lol.

 

[Shaya]

M2K's the highest level MK by far, so whilst it may have been off to reference him directly, it would have been better than

"no you fat lier shaya, you have no idea aboutz the match upz, if mk even looks at marfs shieldz in za wrong way he'll die from a dolphin slazh at 5%".

By saying M2K I'm being proactive in stopping a stupid reply.

 

[OverLade]

M2K's the highest level MK by far, so whilst it may have been off to reference him directly, it would have been better than

"no you fat lier shaya, you have no idea aboutz the match upz, if mk even looks at marfs shieldz in za wrong way he'll die from a dolphin slazh at 5%".

By saying M2K I'm being proactive in stopping a stupid reply.

My mistake, I didn't read the whole post, or what you were responding to, I simply assumed that you accidentally typed M2K instead of MK.

 

[feardragon64]

Staco: While this doesn't address everything you said in your post, I just want to make this clear since you reference it a lot. In the MikeHaze vs M2K match a few things seem to be forgotten or neglected.
1) MikeHaze lost. Sure, he did really well, but he still lost.
2) M2K was playing way too aggressively. You guys have said it yourself, playing defensive on this match-up is really important for both sides. Take another look at the match and see for yourself. Then pay close attention to why he starts winning again. Intelligent use of Tornado and playing defensively. Mike can't punish M2K's approaches with DB and such.
3) Mike is in competition for Neo for top Marth. Mike is pretty insane, but so is Neo. I think Neo has more M2K matchup experience, but I'm not going to judge who is better at the matchup. Not for me to say.

Emphasis on point 2 since that's the most important point. Aggressive MK vs Defensive Marth and the matchup at high levels could be around 55:45 MK. Defensive MK vs aggressive/defensive Marth doesn't go quite so well as you see in the later games.

At least that's how I see it. Anyways, sorry for the short response but I need to go out. xD

 

[Staco]

So, why are there no vids of MKs, which really camp Marth out, if its that easy.
Because it doesnt work that good.

Oh, MikeHaze vs. M2K isnt the only result you can look at. (even this was really close)

Neo 2-0 Dojo in a MM at Apex.
MikeHaze is like 9-0 vs. DSF in tourneys.
If it was so easy to camp Marth out, why dont this players do it?

M2K also thinks its 55:45, maybe 60:40.

 

[-Jumpman-]

I heard DSF camps a lot against about every opponent.

 

[adumbrodeus]

MU are rated for the highest level of play.
So yes, you have to take the M2k vs. Haze matches!
This is the highest level of play atm, theres no better Marth, not better MK. The matches were close to even, so yeah, its close to even at all!

You shouldnt forget that Marth can hit MK through the Nado with Aerials. Should be a good option at all.

Sometimes.

MK still doesnt get a lot of options vs. a good Marth! Just like he said.

If he camps a lot.

Marth will use Up B OoS only, if he is sure to hit with it (if the attack of the Mk allready began). Its the same like MK vs. GaW. But yeah, I also think Marth got better ways to punish tilts. (aerials) Up B OoS also doesnt work at very low %, because of the landing lag. Gives the MK a free hit.

As he should, but again, it limits the utility in the move as an effective counter to MK's strategies.

A good player doesnt wait the tornado to finish. He follows him and shields if he changes directions. Even DDD can get a MK, which is using tornado like that. Marth is way faster! If he Nados close to you and you are in the mod to shield, you get a free grab, if you are doing it right!

It's got almost no landing lag though, unless from high, and it moves quickly, that makes it very difficult to punish if retreated.

The range isnt far enough to hit Marth with it, without getting in DS range. But its unsafe. We are humans and no robots, its hard to consider perfectly if its in range or not. Else Dittos would end 0% both all the time.

We're humans, not robots, so I won't be able to space outside of Ganondorf's grab range with my fairs. Oh wait...


At the top of the metagame, assume that people can space, even take advantage of extremely small spacing differences, because when you get that good, you can. The only difference is recognize that the distance is easy to close.

About punishing nado. Why do you all just think about the two options Up B and Shielding?
Marth got long ranged attacks, which actually beat the nado, if timed right!

Is a smart MK gonna use it at the distance where marth can do that?

MK cant camp Marth that easy. He misses one thing called air speed.

Except he's got ground speed...

And MK cant approach much better than Marth, if the Marth is doing it right. (I think you dont do it right)
Were talking about the HIGHEST LEVEL of play! Look at the DDDs, every DDD except 2 or 3 get destroyed by MKs, but there are some High level DDDs (Atomsk, Lain, Co18), which can handle them much better than all the other DDDs.

No, they both have issues with approaching in this match-up. The thing is, MK's counter-approach game is so much better.

And the fact that high level DDDs can beat MKs doesn't mean that MK doesn't have the advantage.

And if the MU is that bad, so why can Mikehaze also beat players like M2K or Dojo. I dont think that Mikehaze did it, because he is so much better than them, since he only gets 5th place at tourneys like hobo (with MK banned, which makes it easier for him). The MU just isnt that bad. Thats why Mikehaze could play close to even matches vs. M2K and Dojo.

I'm not sure about Dojo, but I'll say this about M2K, his basic playstyle sucks against marth, because he doesn't like to "play gay" aka camp. He wins because he's much better overall, not because he takes advantage of every attribute of his character.

Lol Zac, so the Marth boards seem a little bit to be like the lower Char boards which tended to rate their char like a much better char? Just that the Marth boards are other way around, rating him lower than he actually is. ^^

Its 60:40 or 55:45 in MKs opinion. (Else Wolf is better vs. MK than Marth, haha. )

Mks have a strong tendency to underrate their character, probably a psychological defense against the the "ban mk" crowd. Actually, anti-bans in general, but more MK then anyone else.

So, why are there no vids of MKs, which really camp Marth out, if its that easy.
Because it doesnt work that good.

Oh, MikeHaze vs. M2K isnt the only result you can look at. (even this was really close)

Neo 2-0 Dojo in a MM at Apex.
MikeHaze is like 9-0 vs. DSF in tourneys.
If it was so easy to camp Marth out, why dont this players do it?

M2K also thinks its 55:45, maybe 60:40.

So, maybe NEO is simply better then dojo or MikeHaze is simply better then DSF, or those are singular matches that defy the trend.


And namedropping doesn't work, I've had debates with M2K before and he's not particularly good at translating what he knows to either a consistent opinion or translating opinions to words on a page.

He's an amazing player and I respect him for that, but match-ups and debating, not his thing.

 

[OverLade]

So, why are there no vids of MKs, which really camp Marth out, if its that easy.
Because it doesnt work that good.

Oh, MikeHaze vs. M2K isnt the only result you can look at. (even this was really close)

Neo 2-0 Dojo in a MM at Apex.
MikeHaze is like 9-0 vs. DSF in tourneys.
If it was so easy to camp Marth out, why dont this players do it?

M2K also thinks its 55:45, maybe 60:40.

Neo no doubt knows the matchup far better than Dojo does, and Mikehaze is a better player than DSF.

If Neo told Dojo exactly what to do to beat him, Dojo would probably win every time. Plank/Omni techncially arent as good as Dojo but know the matchup better than he does, which is why they can beat Neo.

I think 60:40 is the safest bet, and Marth seems to be one of the few characters that still manages to compete with MK at the highest level, matchup known or not.