Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Infinitysmash]

MK vs G&W is likely even. Those example vids from Staco don't reflect two good players that know the match-up completely...and isn't G&W bad in FD? I think I'd actually counter-pick FD vs that character.

Trust me dude; if there is ANY Game and Watch player that knows the matchup it's UTD Zac. He's had a TON of practice against the top Metaknights in the nation. You need to do more research before posting dude, lol.

 

[slikvik]

Lol you silly.

Zac is arguably the best G&W in the nation. At Apex and Genesis there was a collection of top G&W's from all over the country, including LeePuff, Valdens, OBM, Slikvik, and more, which Zac outplaced during both tournaments by far. He got 17th at Apex and top 10 at Genesis for highest G&W in both tourneys and is one of the most knowledgeable players about his character and this game in general.

I am arguably top 5 in the nation. 'Nuff said.

Do some homework next time before you say something silly.

Zac didn't outplace me. We both got 17th

but yea. zac is the best G&W easy

MK vs G&W is likely even. Those example vids from Staco don't reflect two good players that know the match-up completely...and isn't G&W bad in FD? I think I'd actually counter-pick FD vs that character.

No way is the match-up. Your ground game is vastly superior to ours. G&W fastest options on the ground is a 4 frame jab and a 6 frame dtilt. mk dtilt and ftilt are faster than these options iirc and your dsmash is faster than G&W dtilt. both chars have an amazing air game but mks is vastly superior for obvious reasons

edit: yea im on that CO lol

 

[CO18]

Yo Slik you watching Making his Band? you better be

 

[ksizl4life]

Dabuz is not the best Olimar in the country by any means...

he isnt the best but hes probably top 3 with rich brown and blackwaltz. he just lives in a tough region and keeps getting me in tourney, someone who knows the matchup really well.

 

[TKD]

Even if UTD is the best G&W player in the U.S., I also mentioned the likeliness of him not knowing the MK match-up completely. Of course he's good, but even good MK players that don't know the IC or Ness match-up can go even against those characters...which shows the difference that not knowing a match-up can make.

I heard Dabuz is the best Olimar player in the U.S.. Sorry for being misinformed.

Edit: I'll believe the match-up is horrible for G&W if some of you MK players destroyed Leepuff. He doesn't play much at all, but he seems to know the MK match-up.

 

[Max Ketchum]

When BlackWaltz is on his A game, he's amaaaazing.

But yeah, he does get unlucky having to fight you, lol. His mastery of Olimar is amazing, but he slightly lacks as a player in comparison to Waltz and Rich.

 

[OverLade]

Really CO?

GaW seems to have a legit chance agianst MK on CP stages (brinstar/Pirate ship/Norfair) as well as neutrals FD and Lylat. But it still doesnt seem like a close matchup to me at all. GaW has too much trouble killing a good defensive MK (As does 90% of the cast).

Im going with 60/40 at this point, though it may be closer or worse on other stages.

 

[Gates]

Yo Slik you watching Making his Band? you better be

This is the most on-topic post on this page right now.

Where are all those people who actually wanted to talk about G&W?

 

[Max Ketchum]

Lylat is G&W's worst neutral by far. Pirate Ship and Norfair are banned at basically every tournament that matters. MK just has to ban Brinstar and then his worst fear is FD...not such a problem.

Also, if the MK can tech, GW is gonna have a lot of trouble killing him.

 

[Hype]

After a Dthrow, can G&W still Usmash you if he reads your tech roll?

 

[OverLade]

Lylat is G&W's worst neutral by far. Pirate Ship and Norfair are banned at basically every tournament that matters. MK just has to ban Brinstar and then his worst fear is FD...not such a problem.

Also, if the MK can tech, GW is gonna have a lot of trouble killing him.

Against MK no. Yoshis and Battlefield give GaW no love at all. Lylat is wide, and the platforms give his Uair and Nair more love than any other neutral.

If it's his worst neutral in general fine but it's definelty not against MK.

 

[Max Ketchum]

GW is my secondary, and I use him against most MKs in tournament. I'd MUCH rather fight MK on Battlefield or Yoshi's than Lylat. The tilt of the stage makes MK's fsmash even more dangerous, the platforms make his up B even safer, and it gives GW much more trouble on recovery than he'd like to have.

 

[OverLade]

GW is my secondary, and I use him against most MKs in tournament. I'd MUCH rather fight MK on Battlefield or Yoshi's than Lylat. The tilt of the stage makes MK's fsmash even more dangerous, the platforms make his up B even safer, and it gives GW much more trouble on recovery than he'd like to have.

Well I'll take your word for it, but in my experience (and on paper) Lylat is a much worse stage than BF for MK against GaW. And I've never played a GaW that I didn't **** hardest on Yoshis island. It's my favorite neutral in general, but GaW's options are so limited when you're under the platform.

 

[Max Ketchum]

GW hits MK harder for being on the platform. Imagine GW camping uair underneath it, then the nair combos into up B when he lands...it's nasty. Yes, being above the platform limits GW's options, but he's not gonna take THAT much damage for it. MK will. The uneven terrain benefits GW in this case, unlike on Lylat. Dtilt with the upward angle is amazing. Also, the support ghosts benefit GW much much more than MK, for what it's worth.

On Lylat, it's easier for MK to land (see: not get uair camped with platform safety). On the ground is where he really destroys GW. He also has three individual choices on where to land after tornado--on Yoshi's, it's incredibly telegraphed and will get him hit 9/10 times if GW shielded it. Also, the wider main platform = more room to run away on the ground. Unlike Battlefield, since the center platform is at the same height as the others, he just has many more options for both landing and attacking. The high platform on BF = easy up B hits for GW.

 

[DanGR]

i want to show you guys. this is the correct way to fight olimar

round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvBRXaIep7g&feature=channel
round 3:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vePzSclhEs

now this set is from the june game table.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SX80GJqhVew

If you don't mind me commenting on these matches...

Those were really good. You do know the matchup well, but there's a lot of other things you could do to get some three stocks on him.

For example, Use dtilt more. It's practically a guaranteed tornado setup if you spam it on his shield at max range. Frame-wise, Olimar is unable to punish it with a grab if...
1.) It's not a white
2.) He doesn't powershield it
3.) He doesn't grab on the first following frame.
4.) You're at a good distance

Technically speaking, he has 13 frames to respond out of shield to consecutive dtilts. Olimar's grabbox comes out on frame 11, but it takes more than 2 frames for the pikmin in the grab to reach Meta Knight if you're spaced. If it's a purple, it'll take even longer. Whites, though, walk really fast so it may reach you in time. I'm not exactly sure.

Tornado when you start to get close, and if he doesn't immediately grab you, you get a free hit.

Olimar recovering... You know how Olimar drops down below the lip of the stage to come from below to upair you to deter you from edge hogging? Use the invincibility trick and immediately drop down and nair him. You did it once and it worked fantastically. It went right through his upair and gimped him.

Also, if you're up to it, camping works really well. Get the lead and just camp one side of the stage, nairing pikmin that fly at you and watching out for purples. He'll eventually have to approach. You didn't really need to do it cuz you were beating him so badly, but it's something to consider if you go up against an Olimar player that can preemptively punish the tornado well. Dabuz didn't. You won't be able to rely on the tornado so much against some other players. I'm sure you know that though...

Olimar can pivot his over special to aid his aerial movement. He can also power-shield MT like any other character. The lesson is don't be afraid to perform Mach Tornado, and Olimar's weakness is being off the ground, though I'm not very convinced that it's that bad.

Do you mean b-reverse his whistle (which is neutral-b) to get the sudden change in momentum? It does help a lot though. You're right.

Sorry, that's all I gotta say on Oli-MK. Back to G&W.

 

[smasher01]

omg Yoshi's is the best stage to fight g@W on you can up-b all day and never get punished cuz you can just press x and land on the plat form.

thats what i counter pick

O and one more thing you dont really need to nado in this match up unless thay are camping on the ledge

 

[Staco]

MK got so much options vs. GaW (each beats like ~3/4 of GaWs options), but GaW didnt get any good option vs. MK.

Up B ***** GaW.
Tornado ***** GaW, if he is in the air doing an attack.
MK groundgame > GaW groundgame.

And GaW is so easy to read. Even if you read him but he spaces well and doesnt get hit he cant punish you for it.
(example: he is over you, wants to do DAir, you can go back a bit and punish it. if he spaces it far away from you he still cant get a hit)

Oh, and GaW cant kill MK at all.
Its so hard for GaW getting a smash hit, if the MK is playing deffensive.

65:36 or 70:30

Show me a newer video of a GaW beating a good MK. I dont think that there is any, since GaW gets destroyed by MK and since the MU is so easy for MK.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Up B ***** GaW.
Tornado ***** GaW, if he is in the air doing an attack.
MK groundgame > GaW groundgame.

...

65:36 or 70:30

Show me a newer video of a GaW beating a good MK. I dont think that there is any, since GaW gets destroyed by MK and since the MU is so easy for MK.

You say that about every match-up lol.

UpB doesn't **** G&W at all. Using UpB against G&W is actually pretty dumb as he can just use UpB/uair OoS to lift you in the air while you're helpless, which is pretty much a free usmash.
Tornado doesn't **** G&W either. It's VERY easy to SDI out of and then punish with dair. G&W upB also ***** the Tornado.
In fact G&W upB ***** all of MKs special moves. The only time it's safe to use a special move for MK is when G&W approaches with the turtle. Then you can beat it with Shuttle Loop. But other than that MKs B-moves are a no-no. This also makes recovering difficult if you're careless

What I hate about G&W the most is actually his neutral B. It's sooooooooooooo hard to get around it with MKs tiny jumps, it's really frustrating. The problem is that neither character should approach the other one. G&W can beat MKs aerials from the ground and MK can beat G&Ws aerials from the ground so whoever approaches first has the disadvantage. Now with those stupid sausages it's really difficult to get the lead ... once MK gets hit by a sausage G&W can camp you all day. I really don't know...I think it's 55/45 MKs favour...it's not worse than 6/4...

 

[cutter]

G&W is probably one of the best characters, if not the best in the game at punishing the tornado.

G&W definately does not get ***** by tornado like you think Staco. You must be playing very incompetent G&Ws. Even if G&W does gets hit he just pops out of it after taking like 4-6% because of his light weight.

4-6% chip damage is not worth the risk when you can get Usmashed into oblivion, juggled by Uair, or possibly getting 9ed.

 

[OverLade]

1. Use Tornado at start of match.
2. Get Uair'd.
3. Get 9'd on the way down
4. Use African DI to survive.
5. Profit???

 

[ksizl4life]

CoME ON MK MAINS! VOTE ANTI BAN!!! LETS SAVE OUR CUTE CHARACTER!

 

[TKD]

I think MK's going to stay. 2/3 pro ban votes? That's pretty unlikely.

 

[judge!]

yea he wont get banned. but

GAW can be really annoying i face NOJ a lot in tourney and trust me he knows the mk matchup realllly well. idk if its even. but all ino is its my least fav matchup because little mess ups can cost u a stock or a missed grab etc.

 

[Affinity]

Wanna discuss Marth, starting this Sunday?

 

[ksizl4life]

yea marths are getting closer to beating mk's from a top level perspective so it wouldnt be a bad idea

 

[Sushi-Man]

Yeah mikehaze took m2k to 5th match at evo. These are the matches if anyone is interested: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgNPbFf_cHM&feature=channel_page

 

[Steel]

MK obliterates Marth. K not obliterates, but it's definitely more than a slight advantage.

A lot of MK's need to seriously take a step back and reapproach this match up. You aren't doing it right.

Spamerer: i didnt watch anything of jason vs haze besides
Spamerer: match 1
Spamerer: and it was just jason
Spamerer: being a complete idiot

 

[CY]

lol @ people wanting to ban MK. xyro already banned him at our HOBOs ;\

 

[OverLade]

Marth is definetly a good choice. He seems to do very well vs. MK at the highest level.

If you havent' seen Dojo vs. Mikehaze you should also check that out.

 

[Shadow 111]

MK obliterates Marth. K not obliterates, but it's definitely more than a slight advantage.

A lot of MK's need to seriously take a step back and reapproach this match up. You aren't doing it right.

Spamerer: i didnt watch anything of jason vs haze besides
Spamerer: match 1
Spamerer: and it was just jason
Spamerer: being a complete idiot

lol, i guess AIM conversations are proof of matchups, steel2nd.
just because spam SAYS there is a simple way to beat marth, that doesn't mean there actually is. spam is inactive at the moment and he's never even played mikehaze or any other impressive marth players (recently).

i still don't think you can easily shut down marth like all the marth mains say you can. it seems a bit foolish to be preaching this crap when no one has put your ideas to use. maybe because it's not that simple? what is your reasoning for why none of the mks play this way? ignorance? i highly doubt that every mk out there is blind to this incredibly easy way to beat marth.
i'll stand by saying mk has a SLIGHT advantage vs marth until an mk proves me wrong by destroying a marth at around the same skill level as him in tournament.

 

[Steel]

I copy pasted that because Spam is seemingly the only top MK who does this match correctly. He didn't tell me how to play it, I figured that out on my own.

You do this match by practically doing nothing. You never approach. It should be one of the most SIMPLE matches that MK has. I'm not going to go in depth yet but seriously, it's not hard. Space some tilts, mix in random nados and grabs, edge guard, that's it. That's all you gotta ****ing do.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Steel, MM me? Your MK vs. my Marth, $20.

 

[teh_spamerer]

Steel, MM me? Your MK vs. my Marth, $20.

k, I changed my name to Steel.

 

[Max Ketchum]

ROFL Kashif, how typical of you.

No, seriously though. If he's so well-informed about the matchup between Marth and MK, he'll have no problem taking my 20 bucks.

 

[Eazy23]

lol, i guess AIM conversations are proof of matchups, steel2nd.
just because spam SAYS there is a simple way to beat marth, that doesn't mean there actually is. spam is inactive at the moment and he's never even played mikehaze or any other impressive marth players (recently).

i still don't think you can easily shut down marth like all the marth mains say you can. it seems a bit foolish to be preaching this crap when no one has put your ideas to use. maybe because it's not that simple? what is your reasoning for why none of the mks play this way? ignorance? i highly doubt that every mk out there is blind to this incredibly easy way to beat marth.
i'll stand by saying mk has a SLIGHT advantage vs marth until an mk proves me wrong by destroying a marth at around the same skill level as him in tournament.

edit, why would I tell you guys that!?!?!

 

[Steel]

lol wtf?

I'll MM you for 10 at no maps cus I'm short on cash.

also cute edit eazy

 

[slikvik]

mods can see edits...kinda unfair if you ask me

 

[TKD]

You do this match by practically doing nothing. You never approach. It should be one of the most SIMPLE matches that MK has. I'm not going to go in depth yet but seriously, it's not hard. Space some tilts, mix in random nados and grabs, edge guard, that's it. That's all you gotta ****ing do.

They do this match by practically doing nothing. They never approach. It should be one of the SIMPLEST matches Marth can have. Block and punish, powershield/nair/upB their nados, DB any time they'll touch the ground, juggle or punish airdodges, KO well, grab them before they grab you or randomly spot-dodge, don't get gimped, that's it. That's all they have to do.

The only real difference between Marth and MK is that Marth may be gimped which is what makes it slightly bad for him. And recovering well may make this not happen in any of his 3 stocks.

edit: I don't know how bad it is, but I'm sure it's not horrible for him.

I've noticed that MK doesn't really super-**** anyone but falcon and ganny. most of his matchups are 55-45 60-40 or 65-35

And people want him banned. lol.

MK is 9/1 vs Ganondorf
MK is 8/2 vs R.O.B., Trainer, Mario, Ike, Link, Falcon and Jigglypuff
MK is 7/3 vs IC, Peach, Wolf, Donkey Kong, Luigi, Sonic, Yoshi, Lucas, Ness, Samus and Bowser

Wario would be as good as him except for his match-up vs Peach, Falco would be as well if he wasn't bad vs Pikachu. The only thing that makes MK better than the rest IMO is the lack of a CP character.

I also think that random character boards saying they're around even vs MK are just underrating him because he's way too amazing and saying it like it is would make smashboards explode.

 

[TKD]

edit: 2ble post

 

[Steel]

The only real difference between Marth and MK is that Marth may be gimped which is what makes it slightly bad for him. And recovering well may make this not happen in any of his 3 stocks.

>___>

Surely, you jest?

Do you really not realize that MK is essentially Marth on steroids?

And the match is probably 65:35, whether that's horrible or not you can decide.

EDIT: Also of course Marth can camp, but come on, whoever has the best options in the camping situation is going come out on top. Camping is a tactic, but the options of the character using the tactic don't change.