Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[adumbrodeus]

The reason I think Marth can go even with MK, is that his grab range is slightly bigger, he can punish moves that aren't grabs from shield, his damage output is OK and he can live long if he doesn't fall to edgeguarding. Both characters take a defensive stance which makes this one of Meta Knight's most boring match-ups in my opinion. Falco's probably more boring though.

Anyway I don't really see how Marth is countered by Meta Knight. At best it's 6/4 for MK IMO.

Grab range isn't that relevant because MK outranges Marth's grab range so hard with his attacks. It's just nowhere near enough.

 

[Emblem Lord]

MK can work around Marth's defense a lot easier than Marth can work around MK's, and Marth can really struggle to get out of disadvantaged situations where as MK can always retreat or stall. When you look at Marth's strengths Meta Knight just kind of...circumvents nearly all of them. Marth can't really juggle, edge guard, zone, or otherwise maintain advantageous position against MK, how could that be any lower than 65:35?

I cummed my pants.

 

[Master Raven]

Ohh let's discuss R.O.B.
That's 8/2 or 9/1 MK's favor. I can't decide which, it's so hard to tell! I'd call it 9/1 or 10/0, but maybe I haven't seen R.O.B. being played well enough.

You always post the most insane matchup ratios.

 

[TKD]

I think MK has 6/4 vs Marth now. A friend told me Marth "may" be able to go even vs MK, but one can edge-guard and the other can...barely edge-guard depending on options used and not for gimps.

Grab range isn't that relevant because MK outranges Marth's grab range so hard with his attacks. It's just nowhere near enough.

It's relevant because Meta Knight's aerials, tilts and specials don't beat blocking (they have to power-block the nado though), while MK can't standing grab Marth at Marth's farther grab range. Also, from mid % Marth can not only punish with side B from block, but he can also hit MK with upB and recover from cool-down before MK can hit him back. This leaves MK with his dash-grab as the obvious option to do something not punishable by Marth's blocking. Sure it works in the mix-up, but it's just mix-up which makes it not completely safe.

So, combining his slightly better grab range to the rest of his attributes makes it relevant.

BTW, Marth can KO MK with Uair, Dsmash, tipper Fsmash (unreliably of course), Usmash, Dolphin Slash (at 140% maybe from 130% near the ledge?), tipper Fair (at super high % which would mean they didn't KO as soon as they could have), tipper Nair (unreliable too), Utilt (at very high %), it's a lot of moves =S So there's a lot of KOing opportunities to for him to practice.

About R.O.B.:
Let's see a great R.O.B. player that knows the MK match-up, against M2K, Dojo, or Tyrant. If he can do anything, it's not 10/0 =) I haven't ever seen how R.O.B. should be able to win any matches but maybe he can...

 

[smashkng]

How can MK **** Marth? Marth can grab release stuff MK and even grab release MK into dair spike.

 

[ksizl4life]

Holy in all the serious friendlies he had with m2k at apex were all last hit and some holy won iirc. dont be ignorant cuz u **** 10 yr old rob players.

 

[OverLade]

There's barely any Data at the highest level for most of these matchups sadly.

Everytime someone says its 65:35 someone takes a game off of (insert high ranked MK player) and then people blame it on the matchup. Then other people blame it on the MK players playstyle.

I think a lot of Marth players are basing their Marth vs. MK ratios of "on paper" stuff, rather than what actually happens. People don't like playing gay and not approaching. And not everyone could do that perfectly anyway, mixupwise Marth can still win when approaching, MK just has far more options.

 

[Toronto Joe]

marths jab is ****ing dumb

 

[Max Ketchum]

I think TKD just posts ******** matchup ratios for attention.

 

[Crizthakidd]

marth vs mk is 6/4 but goes closer if mk does not gimp.
its all about that patience. sure mk has so much more tools, but the match is going to take forever if marth is placing righ ( zoning) and mk using his moves like grounded up b to beat arials. both chars have to build dmg slowly but surely.

also good marths work their side b, dair spike, and grab releases reallly well so that all helps marth a lot. maybe i recover stupid but peirce has spiked me out of mk up b sometimes lmao

watch mikehaze vs m2k. its as good as marth vs mk will get http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou103xvipkU&feature=related


against rob mks only need about 3 matches with a good rob player to figure it out. rob has a few tricks on noob metas the matchup clearly becomes near un winnable after mks get really good

 

[OverLade]

For the record, I'm money matching DJ nintendo today, MK vs. Bowser. We already finished the discussion, but hopefully I'll have some videos and additional information (since the summary hasn't been written yet).

 

[Flayl]

DJ Nintendo plays Brawl? Hope he doesn't try to FAir MK lol.

 

[BarDulL]

imho i would say the match up is 65:35 MK if not 70:30 MK, it's horrible. going into any detail about it makes me depressed.

p.s. i main MK now. sup guys!

 

[OverLade]

And we claim another soul. :D

 

[Tero.]

Welcome to the dark side.
Have a cookie.

 

[etecoon]

welcome to the family.

 

[Emblem Lord]

marth vs mk is 6/4 but goes closer if mk does not gimp.
its all about that patience. sure mk has so much more tools, but the match is going to take forever if marth is placing righ ( zoning) and mk using his moves like grounded up b to beat arials. both chars have to build dmg slowly but surely.

also good marths work their side b, dair spike, and grab releases reallly well so that all helps marth a lot. maybe i recover stupid but peirce has spiked me out of mk up b sometimes lmao

watch mikehaze vs m2k. its as good as marth vs mk will get http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ou103xvipkU&feature=related


against rob mks only need about 3 matches with a good rob player to figure it out. rob has a few tricks on noob metas the matchup clearly becomes near un winnable after mks get really good

Yeah uh this made no sense.

You don't have way more tools then someone and then only get a slight advantage.

 

[Hype]

so like has ROB already been rediscussed? Holy and NL are extremely good vs mk and make this matchup seem very hard. lets talk about it

This 100 times. Holy beat me pretty consistantly. I've beaten him before (in pools) but my record vs him is horrible and I'm a top player in my region.

Watch these matches from a recent tourney. Maybe I'm just playing the match up wrong . Either way I could use some advice on the match up.

Tourney set:
Hype (MK) vs. Holy (ROB) 1&2
Hype (MK) vs. Holy (ROB) 3

Money Match:
Hype (MK) vs. Holy (ROB) 1&2
Hype (MK) vs. Holy (ROB) 3

 

[Palpi]

Well the glide attack to his shield to getting shield grabbed and suicides couldn't be helping hehe xD

Where the D-tilt? Saw a lot of situations where you could've d-tilted instead of f-tilts and get a grab to ground release on edge. Was there a reason there was few d-tilt? I don't know the match-up too well.

 

[phi1ny3]

Welcome to the dark side.

I'll never join you!

 

[Steel]

stop the spam

 

[phi1ny3]

Sorry, couldn't resist.
In all honesty, I really would like to see the ROB discussion move along.
And @ above post: I'm more of a believer of the other way around for marth if anything, 60:40 goes worst when gimped. 60:40 is at the optimum, barring any lulzy conditions that are usually banned anyways. It's a pretty nasty fight for marth. Any boost you would get from a gimmick (air release shenanigans, dthrow -> fsmash at low percents, etc.) can be really quickly regained no thanks to MK's superior tools and generally safer options regardless of being read or not.

 

[Max Ketchum]

Hype, you're definitely playing the match wrong. It's not 9:1 or 8:2 or any stupid ****, but it's definitely in MK's favor by a noticeable amount. I don't have the time to go into full detail atm, but yeah, you could work on a lot against him.

 

[Darxmarth23]

imho i would say the match up is 65:35 MK if not 70:30 MK, it's horrible. going into any detail about it makes me depressed.

p.s. i main MK now. sup guys!

Welcome to the "da bosses"

Okay.
In all honesty, I really would like to see the ROB discussion move along.
And @ above post: I'm more of a believer of the other way around for marth if anything, 60:40 goes worst when gimped. 60:40 is at the optimum, barring any lulzy conditions that are usually banned anyways. It's a pretty nasty fight for marth.

This.

 

[etecoon]

ROB is pretty significantly in MK's favor, if you powershield his projectiles he can't really stop you from getting in on him, air camping works very well against him, and he's surprisingly easy to edge guard considering how good his recovery would normally be considered, but his ability to stall for time in the air simply isn't as useful vs MK as it is against other characters, and he's wide open while he's doing it. he also has a ridiculous blind spot below him, guess where MK likes people to be : D if you get a good lead it's really hard for ROB to do much because MK's defense is so good, most projectiles will just be shielded, and aside from fully charged gyro none of them are likely to kill you anyway if you do miss a shield.

a lot of ROBs attacks have deceptive properties like nair punishes pre-emptive spot dodging because its slow or bair is an automatic spacing trap, nair also has very low landing lag, generally being cautious around these things helps. other things to be aware of like you can SDI out of his dsmash to avoid the KB hit. nair, fsmash, and bair tend to be the main killers, uthrow also kills at very high %, fsmash is frequently stale because it's one of ROBs main anti-tornado moves(this should tell you something about how good tornado is in this MU), but may kill on reset. don't get hit by uair, it does a lot of damage.

stages...I'd go with standard MK stages(SV, delfino, RC etc.) with the exception that I actually wouldn't recommend BF, ROB has great platform pressure too and I think it aids his camping a bit, it's still a good stage it just wouldn't be my #1 choice. ban japes or FD? I'd probably go for japes just because I hate that stage in general

you can take the gryo instead of shielding it sometimes, without it ROBs camping is a lot more tame as his laser is rather slow to recharge and you can still tornado/fly around/block or whatever, MK's glide toss is also pretty great, glide toss gyro > dsmash is 21% and works at low %, at higher percent you can throw it down if he's open for the kill...glide toss > tornado is something I just thought of that amuses me

 

[adumbrodeus]

Everytime someone says its 65:35 someone takes a game off of (insert high ranked MK player) and then people blame it on the matchup. Then other people blame it on the MK players playstyle.

Isn't that a reason to limit our use of inductive reasoning in this?

I think a lot of Marth players are basing their Marth vs. MK ratios of "on paper" stuff, rather than what actually happens. People don't like playing gay and not approaching. And not everyone could do that perfectly anyway, mixupwise Marth can still win when approaching, MK just has far more options.

So, what happens when I play Plank? What happens when Marth players play me (I despise Marth dittos, and have taken a liking to using MK in them)? What happens when a marth player takes a match off M2K and he goes into camp mode? What happens when a Marth player fights any naturally defensive MK player?


So what if the vast majority of MKs are just doing it wrong? Match-ups aren't based on what the character can do with some arbitrary limit, they're based on the character at the top of the metagame. For example, if Snake didn't "play gay", that's probably a 50-50 match-up against Marth.

 

[etecoon]

I think snake is near 50-50(controller port dependent) against marth even if he does play gay <_< in a lot of ways I honestly think marth does better against snake than MK does(not on the whole, just in specific area's)

but yeah, can't underrate MK's defensive side just because M2K, dojo, and a lot of other top MK's only go extreme camp mode when they absolutely have to, if anything that should be an example of how good it is, it's what you can always go back to when all else fails.

 

[Flayl]

For the record, I'm money matching DJ nintendo today, MK vs. Bowser. We already finished the discussion, but hopefully I'll have some videos and additional information (since the summary hasn't been written yet).

What happened to this.

 

[Steel]

so guys

Fox boards are trying to say the match is pretty much even when it's probably 65 35 at BEST >_>

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244972

Please educate this board and spread your intelligence.

 

[Palpi]

Steel. I can't go there. I can't post intelligently when I am in a a burning rage of chaos anger at such absurd accusations made by the fox boards.

65-35 fox right?

 

[Steel]

Rookie PM'd me and told me to stop wasting my time with them haha

 

[Palpi]

Lol, probably a good idea. I don't know how people can be so.... meh.... for so long.

 

[etecoon]

Lol, probably a good idea.

half the fun of being meta knight is aggressively seeking out people who have hope and taking it away, though.

 

[Palpi]

There is hope against metaknight, not a lot, but it is definitely there. The thing that angers me is the idea "I know more about X than you do, therefore Y loses to X." That is what happened in the thread steel linked. I know my posts weren't intelligent, but atleast they were more correct than saying Fox vs MK is almost even.

 

[OverLade]

What happened to this.

Money match vs. DJ nintendo results.

I won 2-0, both matches were on smashville. First match was very close as he's an extremely smart player and I didn't feel like playing gay. I approached on every stock and didn't really use tornado. 2nd match I think I won 2 stock high percent. Once I got comfortable with his options on the ground and in the air it became much easier.

IMO the matchup is entirely dependent on how gay you play. I don't like camping or spamming so I didn't do either really. Once you get bowser in the air you have the option to beat everything he does and continue damaging him. Gaining momemtum is all it really takes. Otherwise his Ftilt beats just about any of your options on the ground, and is really difficult to powershield.

DJ is an incredibly smart player as well. I didn't realize we could record or I would've done it for data reasons. I think MK ***** bowser if you play gay though. 60:40 if you play "average" though.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yeah the foxs went as far in our boards to say 60:40 fox's favor.
Silly furries.

 

[Flayl]

Money match vs. DJ nintendo results.

I won 2-0, both matches were on smashville. First match was very close as he's an extremely smart player and I didn't feel like playing gay. I approached on every stock and didn't really use tornado. 2nd match I think I won 2 stock high percent. Once I got comfortable with his options on the ground and in the air it became much easier.

IMO the matchup is entirely dependent on how gay you play. I don't like camping or spamming so I didn't do either really. Once you get bowser in the air you have the option to beat everything he does and continue damaging him. Gaining momemtum is all it really takes. Otherwise his Ftilt beats just about any of your options on the ground, and is really difficult to powershield.

DJ is an incredibly smart player as well. I didn't realize we could record or I would've done it for data reasons. I think MK ***** bowser if you play gay though. 60:40 if you play "average" though.

This isn't nearly as valuable without the vids, as I have no idea how DJ Nintendo's Brawl Bowser is, but I'll take your word for it.

 

[Palpi]

That is exactly what Vex says. It isn't too bad if the MK is avg or is approaching, but a campy / spamming MK will **** bowser.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Money match vs. DJ nintendo results.

I won 2-0, both matches were on smashville. First match was very close as he's an extremely smart player and I didn't feel like playing gay. I approached on every stock and didn't really use tornado. 2nd match I think I won 2 stock high percent. Once I got comfortable with his options on the ground and in the air it became much easier.

IMO the matchup is entirely dependent on how gay you play. I don't like camping or spamming so I didn't do either really. Once you get bowser in the air you have the option to beat everything he does and continue damaging him. Gaining momemtum is all it really takes. Otherwise his Ftilt beats just about any of your options on the ground, and is really difficult to powershield.

DJ is an incredibly smart player as well. I didn't realize we could record or I would've done it for data reasons. I think MK ***** bowser if you play gay though. 60:40 if you play "average" though.

This is what I ill never understand about MK boards.

Why aren't you guys going all out and playing "gay" from the start?

Why are you holding back?

Are you afraid to see the full potential of your character or something? Sorry but when MK camps he takes away pretty much 99% of the options that anyone can do. That's just how good he is.

You can't just say oh the match-up depends on how you play. That's silly. Match-ups are based on the most effective styles of play in each match-up. If being defensive is the best style (and it is because this is brawl remember?) that's what you are basing the match-up on.

Not when people use an inferior style such as constant rushdown.

You MK players crack me up.


Sometimes I wonder what would have happened to this board had I chose to advance MK's metagame and not Marth's.

One thing is for sure though....

ALOT of those 60/40's and supposed 50/50 match-ups you guys got going on would be 70/30's and 60/40's respectively, had I been running things.

It's like you guys purposely downplay MK's potential.

Worst part is that SWF believes your act. **** is incredible.

 

[Affinity]

Yes, EL. It's all a conspiracy.






lol