Meta Knight's Revenge: The Official Match-Up Thread *Wario* -> GO

[Affinity]

are you taking all of the posts into consideration? i hope so >_<

Yep

also, can you post your opinion on the matchup so i can get a general idea of what you will probably rate it as?

Honestly, I agree with what most everyone said. 55-45 MKs favor; 60-40 at most.

Snake just gets ***** in the air. Get him off the stage: he's either getting gimped or taking a lot of damage before recovering.

I'll post more when I have time later.

 

[capemkills]

Please don't de-rail the current discussion.


Snake discussion will end this Sunday, then we'll probably start with the MK mirror (or I may save that for last; don't know yet).

if not the mirror match...how about falco? sorry for going off topic, just tossing ideas out there because i know that falco is a pretty close match to mk

 

[Crizthakidd]

you guys need to play good *** snakes. i mean there was a stragedy that let them take nade dmg only if u take it. if u both receive 90 % from nades whos going to die first, you or snake =P

also grabing them is becoming hard if they arpouch with nades to fitlits or the thing where they hold their nade, u approach and they grab u which drops the nade lol

on the way down they can c4 to go one direction, b reverse a nade and u have no freaking way to get him cuz he fast falls and the match is his favor again. at mid lvl of competitions SNAKE WINS! its just to easy to be him sometimes.

but, if your a good mk, snakes are going to be fun ^_^ so much grab and airdodges that you can punish =]

i say we discuss Diddy and falco the next 2 who can touch a mk O_o

 

[Affinity]

Sorry about the delay guys. I got home pretty late after driving home from a tournament for 8 hours.

NEXT MATCH-UP​

Week 2 - Diddy Kong

 

[yoshii]

Affinity: I just wanted to give you props for making this very useful character match up guide, I finally got to see you play at this last Missouri tournament.

I had no idea who you were at first, you were playing my friend deepak in singles, it was 3rd game on rainbow cruise. And you faught his falco the first 2 games. I was like **** this guy is fast...

Anyways glad to finally see you play, and good work beating domo.

 

[Xyro77]

when will you do Regular samus?

we put you as 75-25 meta favor

 

[capemkills]

IMO diddy kong is one tough guy.

diddy is probably one of the fastest damage racking characters in the game, his lack of ability to finish hurts him, but since meta is so light he can kill him fairly easy. I'd say that the average diddy can kill mk around 130% give or take about 15% for stage placement and other scenarios.

id say this match is a 55-45 unless on fd and smashville..then i would say 50-50.

Mk- approach with Dairs. Fair doesnt grab bananas but Dair does. If the diddy is dancing around with his bananas wait until he throws one, shield it then Short hop Dair and it will grab the banana and most likely hit the diddy if he dash attacked after the banana. I like to also use bananas against diddys. Alot of players think that throwing them off the stage is better, but throwing them down on diddy from above is an annoyance and also can lead into a bad situation for Diddy. If he trips, fast fall a Dair on him. This seperates him from his bananas (unless he is holding one). once diddy has no bananas chase him with all the aerials that you can...i prefer Fair because it keeps him in the air and out prioritizes most if not all of diddy's aerials. Camping diddy's bananas is also a fun thing to do. wait for diddy to try to come dash and grab them and either tilt him away for Dsmash him. The goal of this match is to keep diddy away from his bananas. I almost never approach diddy when he has 2 bananas, that is just asking to take lots of damage. Wait for him to throw one before you make your move.

If you manage to get diddy of the map and he has to use his barrels pay close attention to the path that he is planning to take. If you suspect that he is going to land on the stage, get there asap and punish him, he has some lag after he hits the stage. This is a good time to get in a downsmash if you are able to predict his landing area.

 

[OverLade]

when will you do Regular samus?

we put you as 75-25 meta favor

I support this. =D

Concerning Diddy, I haven't played many good diddy players.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjJ5xay9Fq0

But I do feel that the best way to approach the matchup is playing hyper aggressive. Outpressure him. Dont let him bring out bananans, because once they're out, he becomes far harder to approach. Edguarding him isn't that difficult once you get the hang of it, though it's unlikely you'll be able to "just gimp him". Keeping him off the edge does damage and puts you in a superior position, though you have to be aware of the side B footstool spike.

If you play aggressive enough at the beggining you should get enough of an edge to stay ahead. Not letting him establish a camp to tent is works very well.

edit: Also, Naner control is EXTREMELY important and helpful. When the nanerz are out you can still use them against him to change the flow of the match. MK's glide toss is also amazing.

 

[Shadow 111]

I say mk vs diddy is 55-45 mk advantage.
i get to play the best diddies in the country (debatable) so i have a lot of practice with them.
you need to really pressure him and stay in the air mostly... try to either get rid of the bananas or make good use of them... but basically just don't let him take them out... against the better diddy players if 2 bananas are out you have to play VERY cautiously or they WILL combo the crap out of you lol.
edgeguarding against diddy is very important because trying to just kill him from the ground will take a while and he has a better ground game than you do. wait out his forward b and nair or dair him... and if he is using the up b to blast up to the ledge, grab the ledge and fall off dong a nair, this will knock his barrel off.... then follow up with more nairs and just get the gimp.

 

[Crizthakidd]

yea diddy is even with mk unless you gimp, edgueard agressively and dont get bananna wannaa combod,

at the edge bad Di fsmash kills at 100 but then with some diddy exp it starts becoming harder for him to kill u

 

[OverLade]

Ah extremely high percents basically shield everything. Diddy's setups only work if you dont shield, because your options out of shield are great, and he can only grab and throw you, which wont kill. If you stay on the ground and only use safe approaches you can live for a very long time in this matchup.

 

[CaliburChamp]

Most of the good Diddy's say its 50:50, and most of the good MK's say its 50:50, since neutral stages are used... ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Shadow 111]

Most of the good Diddy's say its 50:50, and most of the good MK's say its 50:50, since neutral stages are used... ALOT!!!!!!!!!!!

it's 50:50 on neutrals i think.. but i just cp any gay stage and have a VERY large advantage.. and i ban FD. In finals with a diddy you get to ban fd and you get to play on two of the gayest stages of your choice and all you have to do is win on one of his neutrals (assuming you won on your cps) and then the set is yours lol.

 

[Palpi]

I know that is what I should do against a diddy player but, i hate dumb stages. I lost to my friends ZSS on brinstar and i dont know what i was doing, but then i 3 stocked him at like 95% on battlefield haha.

 

[Tero.]

MK versus Diddy should be 50:50 or 55:45 in favor of MK on most of the neutral stages. However MK does lots better than Diddy on counterpick stages so you definitly have a trump card up your sleeve.
Ban FD because most Diddys will just stick with FD or SV as their counterpicks.

MK is superior in almost every way (speed, priority, range, disjointed hitboxes) Diddy however can still keep up because of his banana game.
He doesn't have any save approaches aside from the nanerz so keep that in mind and punish his other approaches with dtilts, ftilts, retreating fairs and stuff.

If your going to approach (which you have to do sooner or later because MK has no projectile and Diddy has ... uhm bananas) you should mostly approach from the air with an angle where Diddy can't effectively throw bananas at you. He can't counter with an aerial either because MKs aerials beat Diddys by far so good Diddys will most likely try to space themselfs back to gain positon advantage again you can use this to your advantage, just land and overshoot any well spaced attack (Dash Attack is good for overshooting because it is fast and covers quite a few distance thus beeing a good tool to wreck your opponents spacing).

Diddys will always try to have two banans on the stage (respectively one of them in their hands). If you catch them for a seccond without those you'll have the advantage. You can safely approach on the ground because without bananas he can't punish your approaches that well so get at him and preassure him with well spaced attacks. He has too get out bananas anyway so this means a free attack for you if you stay near him all the time.

Diddys recovery can cover quite a few distance but it's also easily gimpable if you dair him out of his Barrel Blast he is most likely not going to make it back.
However don't get to reckless while edgeguarding/trying to gimp Diddy or else you are going to get hump spiked (and we all remember that M2K/NL match where M2K was about to gimp NL on the first stock and got killed)

Don't abuse whorenado too much because Diddy can just punish your lag with a glide tossed banana to grab. If you are not going to just throw your moves out careless the diddy won't get many chances to hit you with bananas. Keep in mind though that if you shield them he can still grab you after the glide toss.

Diddys main kill move is his fsmash and he is most likely trying to set it up with bananas, so if you shield those at high percentages he wont hit you and you can survive extremely long, just make sure to DI his throws correct because he'll grab you if you shield but that's not that bad at higher percentages because he can't set up anything with his throws so you'll take the damage but you'll be still alive.

Wow this got longer than I expected.
Unfortunally I missed the Snake re-discussion am I still allowed to post a short summary?

 

[bludhoundz]

MK's aerials don't really outrange Diddy's by a lot.

His fair has really good range, and his bair has decent range as well.

 

[Magik0722]

i play a diddy kong often so i am pretty good at this matchup i dont really explain it well but here are some videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3VVDDoDaJQ&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3wOcfVfVpI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9KPBUw8glc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGKsoGKGijY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tVPCQXL8F4&feature=related

they may be useful for and maybe someone else can explain after watching them

 

[Shadow 111]

Would anyone want to re-think the mk vs snake matchup to be an even matchup after seeing Ally beat m2k in grand finals at Apex just now? Anyone?

 

[Sushi-Man]

would Anyone Want To Re-think The Mk Vs Snake Matchup To Be An Even Matchup After Seeing Ally Beat M2k In Grand Finals At Apex Just Now? Anyone?

Qft

10qft

 

[Affinity]

Would anyone want to re-think the mk vs snake matchup to be an even matchup after seeing Ally beat m2k in grand finals at Apex just now? Anyone?

I guess we can discuss the Snake Ally match-up again for this week. I don't really mind.

 

[Master Raven]

Candy also beat Dojo 2-1, and Dojo ***** DSF's Snake pretty hard at WHOBO.

 

[Hype]

I think Halberd is the level to ban, Ally 3 stocked me there. It's also a good snake level.

Whats MK's best CP in this match up? delfino?

 

[Kamikaze*]

I'm now convinced snake v MK is in fact 50:50

 

[Tero.]

Would anyone want to re-think the mk vs snake matchup to be an even matchup after seeing Ally beat m2k in grand finals at Apex just now? Anyone?

I still think Snake:MK is 55:45 in favor of Snake.
Thx to Ally we're discussing this MU again

 

[PyroSpark]

Brinstar ***** Snake.

 

[OverLade]

I think I'm going back to the 50-50 thing now for this matchup. Just because I've never played a Snake that could make the matchup look even, doesnt mean it really isnt. Apparently Ally is just doing stuff other snakes arent doing/able to do.

Same goes for Candy, I wouldn't mind his insight on the matchup......

 

[Shadow 111]

that's what i've been saying for a very long time. Snake as the potential to go even or even beat mk... the snake players just haven't been playing it right yet. ally, candy, and inui discovered soo many things against mk that snake can do to win.
Well, i might be dropping mk as my main and trying out wario for a while. I'll see how it goes. i won't be posting here too much anymore though. see ya guys.
Wario is too good XD

 

[OverLade]

that's what i've been saying for a very long time. Snake as the potential to go even or even beat mk... the snake players just haven't been playing it right yet. ally, candy, and inui discovered soo many things against mk that snake can do to win.
Well, i might be dropping mk as my main and trying out wario for a while. I'll see how it goes. i won't be posting here too much anymore though. see ya guys.
Wario is too good XD

T_T

Mad respect but you will be missed. I'm sorta wanting to drop MK after this as well...

After M2K lost to Ally and Lain its like I lost Inspiration to be amazing with MK. It makes you want to strive for something even more amazing.....

 

[Tero.]

Well I still think this match-up is in Snakes favor or at least 50:50.

Snakes who know how to play this MU will play defensive and defensive Snake means lots of grenades which forced the MK to approach and Snake is way too good at punishing approaches.

Bad MK will get ***** hard by Snakes but that is not what we are talking about anyway.

While I'm sure Snake has the advantage on the ground, MK definitly has the upper hand in the air. Snakes aerials can't compete with the speed and priority of Meta Knights. Juggling can rack up good damage but it will get harder at higher level of play. Snake has the opportunity to jump, airdodge, bair, b-bouncing/reversal, c4, whatever ...

Offstage MK is superior, he can edgeguard Snake more effectively. Snake has to recover from high above which directly leads to above mentioned juggling.

Considering all this I think Snakes capability to force MK to approach and then punish those approaches plus the fact that Snake basically has an auto kill on most stages at 80% if he hits with *insert move here* and the fact that Snake lives until 2314980% if MK doesn't get that gimp makes this Match-Up at least even.

Ally:MK MU is broken tho.
80:20 I'd say.

 

[Nic64]

MK vs Ally is a 10-90 matchup

counterpick with wifi olimar? <_<

Considering all this I think Snakes capability to force MK to approach and then punish those approaches plus the fact that Snake basically has an auto kill on most stages at 80% if he hits with *insert move here* and the fact that Snake lives until 2314980% if MK doesn't get that gimp makes this Match-Up at least even.

80% shouldn't happen...

the back end of dsmash near the edge can kill snake earlier than you may think, or at least set him up off the edge. MK doesn't have to kill snake at low % because snake gets put into bad positions consistently whenever he gets hit at high %, he's nearly totally helpless once he's put in the air, a dsmash that fails to kill snake at around 110% can still lead to a ton of easy damage and ultimately a kill because at that point you can just chase him around in the air so easily.

I don't think it's significantly in MK's favor but I certainly wouldn't say it's in Snake's either, I think I'd still rate it around 55:45 MK, maybe closer than that but still in MK's favor in any case. Overall, I think it's pretty stage dependent, what tips it in MK's favor IMO is that he does better on neutrals, having the advantage everywhere except FD, and battlefield is basically a counterpick stage against snake.

 

[Cloud9157]

Did anyone think that M2K was sandbagging perhaps? Or did he just happen to get spiked by Fair 3 times?

 

[Nic64]

Be a man. Troll with your main.

 

[OverLade]

Did anyone think that M2K was sandbagging perhaps? Or did he just happen to get spiked by Fair 3 times?

M2K wasnt sandbagging. I'm sure of it.

There were only a handful of"rather bad" decisions he made, most of which were likely because he was scared and desperate for a kill. Him getting double spiked was due to Ally being absurdly good and jumping into the water to spike him. And getting spiked while trying to gimp isn't unusual, it's happened to me on a few occasions, and I'm sure it's happened to plenty of other MK players.

 

[Cloud9157]

Be a man. Troll with your main.

Lol, thats trolling?

Olimar is my main.

It wasn't just M2K losing to Ally 3-1, it just seemed weird that he lost to Lain. I will credit Lain, he is an absolute monster with ICs. One grab will usually drop off an opponent's stock, and he only shows how well he can pull it off.

Back to the topic. M2K lost to Lain, his first loss in a long time if I remember correctly? Has he ever lost in the GFs for Brawl? I remember a long time ago Azen took him a long way, but I do not remember if he won or not.

 

[ksizl4life]

LOL at the current matchup. me and m2k both lost to ally. a few pages ago i put my walkthrough on how to beat snake and if you were watching the live stream you see how well i did against ally in winners semis. what helped the most was going to m2k's house for a day to practice. i asked him to use snake once. its riciculous and hes amazing with him. here are the matches with ally http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiATA-aUP4o is game 1 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdmX-DiDqA&feature=related is game 2. i beat candy 3rd round of the tourney. maybe dojo didnt know the matchup so well even though he ***** dsf once. i lost to only snake so i have alot to work on for that matchup.

 

[Staco]

If Ally would use B-Reversal Camping after getting a lead then this MU would be harder than it already is.
B-Reversal is so hard to punish.
Grab is the best thing which works, after Granada B-Reversal.

 

[Crizthakidd]

lmfao as soon as apex ended i went home thinking i want to post in the thread of make a whole new one on METAKNIGHT VS SNAKE

which is now even. you guys switch ur dam minds so much like honestly some people can see things into the future and base things off basics so before we thought snake ***** meta. then we discovered what mk can do so we said mk has a slight advantage. but things change right. now mk is even with snake.

then m2k says that ice climbers are even? i dont like people who just base things of persoanl experiance. just cuz lain can 0-death him every time doest mean every ic will do that to mk. and we saw how to extream camp them to beat IC. we can base things off these highest lvl of players since it was the best with each char.

ally vs m2k
candy vs dojo

both sets were with players around the same skill and that helps shows that if snake does not beat mk he goes even >_>

 

[Gates]

Lol, thats trolling?

I lol'd so hard. This is what I'm gonna post from now on whenever someone calls me out for trolling these boards.

On Topic:
lain has beaten Ally in tourney before and he didn't need to use MK to do it.
Dedede *****.

 

[FB Dj_Iskascribble]

also ICs infinites should not be banned either altho I do think it's very cheap. That is the reason ICs are good and it takes practice to do, so banning that is like... you might as well just ban ICs. The first 2 matches that I lost in the first set... the first one was LAST HIT (like one down smash or w/e from winning I believe) while the last game was like last stock mid %. All 3 games I won in losers were last stock, and first one was last hit. The difference wasn't actually that big at all, it was just barely enough in my favor, and I was camping as hard as I Could. The only thing I think should be banned are stupid stages where luck is involved or random factors or extreme camping are involved, but honestly I don't care much either way. I'm really tired of having everything being banned it's stupid just play the game and try to win.

In crews the last day, Judge lost to Meeps ICs in crews when Judge had 3 stocks and Meep had 2, Meep won by 1 stock 50%. Not only that, Meep messed up the chain grab like 4 or 5 times, so it could have been worse if he mastered the CG better like Lain did. It was on FD, but the point is that ICs are an extremely good character. I honestly do not think I could beat Lain if he mastered that BLIZZARD WALL Thing where he makes one IC jump then the other do it and the other to make a huge blizzard wall. Once he masters ICs even more idk if I can beat him.

I see some reasoning behind him saying IC is close to even

 

[Sushi-Man]

Even lain agreed that the mk-ice climbers match-up is 50:50. One grab=death is just as good as dair camping