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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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Tesh

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Lol, I think Apex and MLG have something going for them besides MK being legal or illegal. The best ways to see which is more popular is to compare tournaments in the same region with different rulesets. You'd have to be a complete idiot to compare someone so notable in the community as MikeHAZE running a 44 man tournament and Ripple's mentioned 40 man tournament ran by....some school in...where ripple is.

If you think MLG having a bunch of attendance means they did everything right, then you should agree with Norfair and Green Greens. Those obviously attracted the MLG numbers.
 

Ripple

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yeah, because you can totally compare a MK banned regional with $300 first prize with a multi national MK allowed tournament with $2,500 on the line
 

da K.I.D.

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I'm not but that's debatable. I could argue that banning MK would cause a lot of players to quit
do you have proof of this statement?

because Im seeing MULTIPLE TOURNAMENT SERIES' ALL OVER THE COUNTRY, that are running mk banned events and getting far more entrants than their metaknight legal predecessors.

all of your arguments are based on personal bias and large scale baseless assumptions. its like arguing with mew2king. except m2k at least has insider information to back up his points
 

SaveMeJebus

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Jebus, c'mon, just try it yourself. Take ANY two numbers that add up to a hundred. Make both numbers subtract half of themselves and give it to the other number.

No matter what numbers you use, it comes out to 50 vs 50.


Well, for a small regional tourney, I would say that 56 entrants is a pretty legit turnout.

To help prove my(or your) claim, I think that we'd need to keep better track of MK banned tournies and see what the turnouts end up being, and maybe have someone host a LARGE regional/national with MK banned and see how the entrant rate goes, y'know?
the votes were turned into percentages (100%). The actual votes would change the percentages once they are moved around
 

Tesh

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Sometimes I wonder if Jebus being pro ban actually hurts their credibility. I guess Jebus (like mikehaze) believes that the majority of people aren't qualified to vote, and if educated would vote their way.
 

John12346

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Alright, lemme try that again.

Take ANY two numbers, they don't even have to add up to a hundred, and like before, have both of them half themselves and give it to the other number. The two resulting numbers will be equal, and hence both will be a grand total of 50% of the sum of the two numbers. Simple stuff right there.

The problem here is that your initial approach is flawed, because if we go by your reasoning, ultimately exactly 50% of the population will vote one way, and 50% will vote the other way on every single poll in existence. Get it?
 

Ripple

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Alright, lemme try that again.

Take ANY two numbers, they don't even have to add up to a hundred, and like before, have both of them half themselves and give it to the other number. The two resulting numbers will be equal, and hence both will be a grand total of 50% of the sum of the two numbers. Simple stuff right there.

The problem here is that your initial approach is flawed, because if we go by your reasoning, ultimately exactly 50% of the population will vote one way, and 50% will vote the other way on every single poll in existence. Get it?
inb4hemakesathreadsayingyourmathiswrong....again
 

SaveMeJebus

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Alright, lemme try that again.

Take ANY two numbers, they don't even have to add up to a hundred, and like before, have both of them half themselves and give it to the other number. The two resulting numbers will be equal, and hence both will be a grand total of 50% of the sum of the two numbers. Simple stuff right there.

The problem here is that your initial approach is flawed, because if we go by your reasoning, ultimately exactly 50% of the population will vote one way, and 50% will vote the other way on every single poll in existence. Get it?
it does, but 50/50 is a hell of a lot better than what we have now. Even 55/45 or 60/40 would make a huge difference
 

Ripple

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lol, I'm out. probably be banned when I wake up. whatever, peace
 

Tesh

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Alright, lemme try that again.

Take ANY two numbers, they don't even have to add up to a hundred, and like before, have both of them half themselves and give it to the other number. The two resulting numbers will be equal, and hence both will be a grand total of 50% of the sum of the two numbers. Simple stuff right there.

The problem here is that your initial approach is flawed, because if we go by your reasoning, ultimately exactly 50% of the population will vote one way, and 50% will vote the other way on every single poll in existence. Get it?
No no John. Lets say 25 people voted anti ban, 20 of them are idiots and will vote pro ban when they understand the question (80%). 75 people voted pro ban, 60 of them are idiots and will vote anti ban when they understand the question(80%). Now anti ban has the 5 original votes and the 60 flip floppers and pro ban has the 15 original voters and only 20 flip floppers. Now we can clearly see anti ban has 65% of the vote and NOW its correct and MK will stay legal. The math isn't right until pro ban wins.
 

SaveMeJebus

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No no John. Lets say 25 people voted anti ban, 20 of them are idiots and will vote pro ban when they understand the question (80%). 75 people voted pro ban, 60 of them are idiots and will vote anti ban when they understand the question(80%). Now anti ban has the 5 original votes and the 60 flip floppers and pro ban has the 15 original voters and only 20 flip floppers. Now we can clearly see anti ban has 65% of the vote and NOW its correct and MK will stay legal. The math isn't right until pro ban wins.
I don't think 50% of the people from each side are voting for the wrong reasons. The votes might change a little, but I doubt anti ban will beat pro ban and it will probably be 45/55 at best
 

John12346

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Ah, I see what you're getting at Tesh, my mistake.

But... keep in mind, there's no real way to tell exactly how many people voted for "the wrong reasons," y'know?

Although, now that the idea has been put forth, I wonder how many anti-ban voters who voted because, "MK is beatable, stop johning," etc. would change their tune after seeing MY CHARTS and the rest of the pro-ban arguments, considering that no data was set forth during the actual ban vote...
 

Eon the Wolf

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Smooth Criminal telling it like it is.
This.
What else can I say, Grim?

The decision is ironclad regardless of argument. Tesh summed it up very well: People voted for what they wanted, regardless of how informed they were. If the majority said "nay" to MK being in their game, that's pretty much it.

If people don't like it, they can host their own tourneys.

Smooth Criminal
This so much.

*sees new locked thread*


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHa
Ah, it does so bring a smile to my face....
X - .5X + .5Y vs Y - .5Y + .5X
.5X + .5Y vs .5Y + .5X
Divide both sides by (X + Y)
.5 + .5 vs .5 + .5
1 vs 1

No matter what the initial percentages, any voting result going through your function will result in a 50-50 split EVERY time. It's flawed reasoning.
Jebus....YOU JUST GOT MATH'D SON!
its already been proven to bring more people back to the game.

****ing ******, we already went through this like 11 hundred times.

my school just had tournament with MK banned, first 1 ever. guess how many people showed up ON A SUNDAY WITH MIDTERMS TOMORROW?!

40 people.
...Seriously? They went to a tourny the night before midterms...?
....Eh, I'd prob do that too....
(if it was melee >.>)
A growing cancer.
Yep.
 

Cassio

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I cant believe people are still citing the 70-30 number as something remotely valid. Im about to put a massive hole in that argument once and for all, after I find the time to write something formal in a week or so with some new info.

Jebus I get what youre trying to say, but I think most people who want MK banned dont think he deserves to be. That would still leave him banned though as far as what we assume public opinion to be, which was the information that the URC attempted to gather (aka something quantitative in regards to public opinion). Granted it would be an interesting question to ask and analyze as far as making a qualitative conclusion on public opinion.
Also, Concentrate if anything proves that MK banned tournies defo. brings in the players. 56 entrants, and a ****load of MK players went and showed up anyway.
nothing sinister but Im saving this for later.
 

Ghostbone

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I cant believe people are still citing the 70-30 number as something remotely valid. Im about to put a massive hole in that argument once and for all, after I find the time to write something formal in a week or so with some new info.
76-24, and it is valid.
Jebus I get what youre trying to say, but I think most people who want MK banned dont think he deserves to be. That would still leave him banned though as far as what we assume public opinion to be, which was the information that the URC attempted to gather (aka something quantitative in regards to public opinion). Granted it would be an interesting question to ask and analyze as far as making a qualitative conclusion on public opinion.
Do you people really think that a significant portion of pro-ban doesn't think MK deserves to be banned?
That doesn't even make sense, stop making loaded questions to try and get more votes in your favour..... (aimed at Jebus more than you)
 

Eternal Yoshi

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this thread is still going? Coool.

Can someone address this?

NO NO WAY

Why dont americans restrict ****ing stages?
before banning Character which restricts the players' action , you should ban stages whitch are TOO GOOD for MK
Current rulesets have advantages for Mk players too much, so you should change rulesets.

I talk about this at twitter, MANY Japanese players agreed my opinion.

no way
 

Grim Tuesday

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NO NO WAY

Why dont americans restrict ****ing stages?
before banning Character which restricts the players' action , you should ban stages whitch are TOO GOOD for MK
Current rulesets have advantages for Mk players too much, so you should change rulesets.

I talk about this at twitter, MANY Japanese players agreed my opinion.

no way
Because Meta Knight has shown to be good even with more conservative stage lists.

There also comes a point where if we are restricting our stage lists just to keep him in check... And he is still a problem (albeit a smaller one), it might just be easier to ban him.

Finally, he is broken on every stage if you don't surgically nerf him.
 

Cassio

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76-24, and it is valid.
lol, where did that number come from? Honestly curious.
Do you people really think that a significant portion of pro-ban doesn't think MK deserves to be banned?
That doesn't even make sense, stop making loaded questions to try and get more votes in your favour..... (aimed at Jebus more than you)
In due time :). Jebus is sort of correct though, in a recent discussion it seemed that a good amount of people did not feel MK deserved to be banned, only that it would make the game more interesting or draw in more people.

That poses the question of whether MK ought to still be banned if he does not deserve to be if people simply want him to be. Ethically the answer is no, but speaking practically it becomes less clear.
 

Sorto

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I feel that the reasons for banning mk are too varied.

I wish the voting took into account peoples reasoning.

General Reasoning of Pro Ban

1. Some players say he is too good offensively. Nado, upb, uair, dsmash, dtilt
- this believe is usually shared by lower level players. Top players will agree these are good moves but not unfair.

2. Some players say overcentralization. Ban a character that is played a lot, because he is played a lot. Strange argument. All fighting games have overcentralization of the top tier. What qualifies as overcentralization? And is it ok for multiple characters to over centralize. Mk takes 50% of the money. But take out mks winnings and snake and diddy are taking 50% of the remaining non-mk won money based on current numbers.

3. Other players say his stalling options are too good and he is just too good at running the clock. The rule set states that stalling is banned and these forms of running the clock are a form of stalling. They have no offensive use, they are only meant to run the timer. This is an issue, but its arguably covered under the banned stalling ruling. A lgl and scrooging limit can easily help to remove this problem.

4. Some players say he is too good in the current ruleset. Some stages are too mk friendly. These stages could easily be removed from the legal stage list.

5. Some players say mk is bannable because he has no losing matchups. This happens in other fighters. Look at pikachu in 64 or fox in melee. They have even matchups sure, but they don't lose any. Unless the matchups have changed recently.

Issues With This
The problem with the poll is people have varied opinions of why he should be banned depending on their level of play.

I believe that most of the top players don't feel mk is too good offensively. His moves are good but not game breaking.

I am sure that most people who have played other fighters don't feel that no losing matchups or overcentralization are grounds for bans because they have seen that before.

And the other issues I mentioned have easily found solutions. Stage changes, scrooging rules, timer changes, and lgl timit. Perhaps different timeout rules.

The Real Question
The real question, that I feel all the proban seem to avoid or dismiss is, "On a relatively neutral stage, is MK truly an unfair character (Outside of his stalling capabilities. Remember: Stalling is banned in all smash games. Remember 2: LGL and scrooging limits would severly limit his stalling/timer running abilities)?"
:phone:
 

Doc King

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its already been proven to bring more people back to the game.

****ing ******, we already went through this like 11 hundred times.

my school just had tournament with MK banned, first 1 ever. guess how many people showed up ON A SUNDAY WITH MIDTERMS TOMORROW?!

40 people.
Wow. Nice to see Brawl's tourney scene getting better.
Jebus...oh I remember that guy! Excel told me you suck. It seems, I'm seeing his skills in action.
Yes you are.
 

da K.I.D.

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The Real Question
The real question, that I feel all the proban seem to avoid or dismiss is, "On a relatively neutral stage, is MK truly an unfair character (Outside of his stalling capabilities. Remember: Stalling is banned in all smash games. Remember 2: LGL and scrooging limits would severly limit his stalling/timer running abilities)?"
:phone:
The problem here is that you are being very dismissive of the stalling situation. MK can easily stall and run the clock without breaking any rules. Simply saying that the rules ban stalling because that doesnt do anything to impede the ability for him to stay in the air outside of an opponents range for an exorbitant amount of time and than you his 'wayy too goo but not game breaking moves' to safely exit the situation and repeat the process. It doesnt matter how you try to alter the rules , mk will still be too good at running away.

Now the question that you have to ask YOURSELF, is how many Meta Knight specific rues do you feel should be implemented before you can admit to the character being bannable? Other characters camp the ledge but the Ledge Grab Limit was specifically put in place to impede MK. Other characters can fly under the stage but the scrooging rule was put in place to specifically target MK. The current stage list, and then some added stages, are generally fair to the cast relative to how we play the game (which is to say that we cant make a stagelist that makes ganon viable but its fair to the cast as a whole) but people want to reduce the stage list to 5, 3 or in some cases even one stage, specifically because of MK. Now, how many more rules should we put in place to make Mk fair before you come to the conclusion that he is bannable?

I usually dont like to do this but I feel the analogy fits well here.

Could the Street Fighter 2 community have simply banned Akumas air fireballs and kept him legal for tournaments? Sure they could. But even if they did, im sure he would have still been the best character in the game and would have taken most of the top spots at major tourneys. But they decided (maybe not explicitly, but definitely implicitly) that if they had to ban specific moves and tactics and write an entire rulebook simply for one character that was wayy too good anyway. It would be simpler, easier, and better for the game to simply ban him outright.
 

Cassio

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Wow. Nice to see Brawl's tourney scene getting better.
Its more than likely it will have no net effect. Assuming it would have any affect at all it should have been done before people were quitting, not well after.
Now the question that you have to ask YOURSELF, is how many Meta Knight specific rues do you feel should be implemented before you can admit to the character being bannable? Other characters camp the ledge but the Ledge Grab Limit was specifically put in place to impede MK. Other characters can fly under the stage but the scrooging rule was put in place to specifically target MK. The current stage list, and then some added stages, are generally fair to the cast relative to how we play the game (which is to say that we cant make a stagelist that makes ganon viable but its fair to the cast as a whole) but people want to reduce the stage list to 5, 3 or in some cases even one stage, specifically because of MK. Now, how many more rules should we put in place to make Mk fair before you come to the conclusion that he is bannable?
This is actually false, regardless of MK many people prefer this sort of ruleset more than they prefer MK being banned. The only thing sort of questionable is the timer increase, but more on all of this later.
 

Sorto

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The problem here is that you are being very dismissive of the stalling situation. MK can easily stall and run the clock without breaking any rules. Simply saying that the rules ban stalling because that doesnt do anything to impede the ability for him to stay in the air outside of an opponents range for an exorbitant amount of time and than you his 'wayy too goo but not game breaking moves' to safely exit the situation and repeat the process. It doesnt matter how you try to alter the rules , mk will still be too good at running away.

Now the question that you have to ask YOURSELF, is how many Meta Knight specific rues do you feel should be implemented before you can admit to the character being bannable? Other characters camp the ledge but the Ledge Grab Limit was specifically put in place to impede MK. Other characters can fly under the stage but the scrooging rule was put in place to specifically target MK. The current stage list, and then some added stages, are generally fair to the cast relative to how we play the game (which is to say that we cant make a stagelist that makes ganon viable but its fair to the cast as a whole) but people want to reduce the stage list to 5, 3 or in some cases even one stage, specifically because of MK. Now, how many more rules should we put in place to make Mk fair before you come to the conclusion that he is bannable?

I usually dont like to do this but I feel the analogy fits well here.

Could the Street Fighter 2 community have simply banned Akumas air fireballs and kept him legal for tournaments? Sure they could. But even if they did, im sure he would have still been the best character in the game and would have taken most of the top spots at major tourneys. But they decided (maybe not explicitly, but definitely implicitly) that if they had to ban specific moves and tactics and write an entire rulebook simply for one character that was wayy too good anyway. It would be simpler, easier, and better for the game to simply ban him outright.
His ability to truly stall is limited to planking, scrooging, and dim cape (tho it is banned).

The air camp is good. And sure he can stay in the air for large periods of time, but so can kirby, jiggs, pit, and they are not nearly as good. Air camping is not nearly the same stalling mechanism as planking or scroooging.

All you need is a scrooging and planking limit. And have stages that don't generally award stalling. Perhaps increasing the timer as well.

I am not making these rules for mk. I am making the rules I said to combat stalling.

Stalling is the true issue, it is just that mk is a much better staller then everyone else.

It would be like sonic getting a stock lead and then just neutral bing under the stage. Sure you can hit him. But at what cost. I mean he would have a much better match up against tether characters and those with mediocre recoveries. Does the community wish to award stalling. He is just doing it to run the timer. If you get hit or go for him that is just a bonus. Mks are not planking/scrooging to hit u. You getting hit is a bonus. They are doing it to stall. The stall is just less aparent and you have to use frame data to see it and see that it truly fits more into a stall like category.

Random side note: I just checked the urc ruleset. Is the sonic stall I described legal? It does not have rules that say it is not, from what I can tell. Sonic vs oli match up just got way more stall-rific.
:phone:
 

da K.I.D.

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You didnt actually refute what I said, you answered my question, but you stated that my statements were false without telling what of what I said wasnt true and why.

The ledge grab limit, the Scrooging rule, vastly altering the stagelist, even air time limits and increasing the timer. All of those rules whether or not people enjoy or approve of them, all those rules were specifically made to target MK to make him weaker so that he would not break the game. Thats not false

Now, you said that there are people out there that would rather have all of those rules in place before they ban the one character that is the cause for all of them. That maybe true, but i think when you look at it the way I mentioned, those people are in the vast minority.
 

Cassio

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Point was they arent MK specific rules, pro-ban just manipulated them to appear that way.

Its not the case that those in favor of a conservative ruleset are in the minority, the debate between conservative vs liberal rulesets has always existed well before the MK debate or even brawl existed. The community has always had greater amounts in favor of a conservative rulesets, thats especially true in its strongest regions.
 

da K.I.D.

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theres a difference between the atlantic north wanting to eliminate randomness, with inui trying to go down to a like 3 starter list and like 5 counterpicks, and people saying MK wouldnt be as dominant if we went the japanese route and only made bf, fd, and sv legal, or did things the Euro way and playing every single game on smashville.

Lots of people wanted conservative stagelists but nobody talked about having less then 5 stages legal until the idea that it would help MK not be so broken came up.
 
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He'll probably come back and say because pro-ban manipulated the information and everyone just agreed with them.

LGLs haven't really done anything to stop MK from timing people out though. He can still be basically invincible without grabbing the ledge more than 20 times or so, the ledge was just a convenience.

I still think the Japanese and European players who have commented on this subject have done it with very wrong cultural assumptions about why Americans play their characters or how we play the game. American MKs are better, and are better not because we're better players but because there are MKs at like a 5:1 ratio to any other random character. When we say American MKs are better it isn't any kind of smug exceptionalism, it's just the logical truth of the situation. Europe has better Yoshis and Peaches and Marths and all kinds of things.
 

Cassio

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Not Americans, East Coast. West Coast honestly hates the ruleset EC advocates and is more in line with the international community. Also no matter how you pamper it it is smug exceptionalism.
theres a difference between the atlantic north wanting to eliminate randomness, with inui trying to go down to a like 3 starter list and like 5 counterpicks, and people saying MK wouldnt be as dominant if we went the japanese route and only made bf, fd, and sv legal, or did things the Euro way and playing every single game on smashville.

Lots of people wanted conservative stagelists but nobody talked about having less then 5 stages legal until the idea that it would help MK not be so broken came up.
Ok, heres the problem.

When I said conservative vs liberal ruleset I was speaking within the scope of the argument. More accurately its conservative vs mostly conservative ruleset. At the very least those who argue a conservative ruleset with lgls, less stages, more rules etc. are sticking to their guns in attempting to balance the game regardless of whether MK is banned or not; or as a result of his success (although quite honestly theres very few people who would add these rules simply because of MK, its simply a dominating mentality in smash).

What about "mostly conservative" ruleset advocates? tbh these people are morons and the ones who've ruined it for the rest of us. Theyve essentially created a ruleset that bans everything that would balance MK (primarly items and stages), and then whines at further attempts to balance the games resulting overpowered tactics that disproportionately help MK. wishy washy fools. In essence they created and advocate the most powerful ruleset MK could have and then in the same breath ask for him to be banned. Thats why I cant take anyone seriously who advocates keeping stages like brinstar or argues against lgls unless they also advocate item play and stages like bridge of eldin.

If theyre going to ban shiz that creates overpowered tactics dont whine when people ask for more necessary artificial changes to balance the overpowered tactics they created. Thats just stupid. Even worse they make up some BS about these rules being about MK.

Personally Im fine with anything that isnt that wishy washy BS, but a conservative ruleset is more likely.
 

Jet300

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If the ban MK they should ban ddk for having bananas, IC for chain grabbing, snake for using explosive, etc. This is stupid./
I nearly almost died laughing at your post.

1) Diddy can't get banned because he has bananas, because thats his ****ing play style besides you can use it against him.

2) IC cant get banned for chain grabbing because they will suck with out them, and D3 will been banned

3) Snake can't get banned because the explosive help his zoing.

Do you even know what your talking about.:glare:
 
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