Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[pikmin3]

This is fun to watch.

Continue on.

 

[ElDominio]

What about "mostly conservative" ruleset advocates? tbh these people are morons and the ones who've ruined it for the rest of us. Theyve essentially created a ruleset that bans everything that would balance MK (primarly items and stages), and then whines at further attempts to balance the games resulting overpowered tactics that disproportionately help MK. wishy washy fools. In essence they created and advocate the most powerful ruleset MK could have and then in the same breath ask for him to be banned. Thats why I cant take anyone seriously who advocates keeping stages like brinstar or argues against lgls unless they also advocate item play and stages like bridge of eldin.

For the first time in history, I agree with you.

Items SHOULD be legal and so should much more stages, but most people have this idea that "competitive smash = no items", so in my opinion, MK with no items should be banned.

I'd really, really love an ISP ruleset with more stages and MK

 

[Ghostbone]

I feel that the reasons for banning mk are too varied.

Wait wait wait wait wait, there are too many reasons to ban MK now?

As for the rest of your post, reasons 1, 4 and 5 are the same thing, as for 3, MK can bypass any stalling rule you try to implement, as for 2, most people that are pro-ban would probably agree that if a character is over-centralising, but has no other problems (ie. can be counter-picked, is being beaten at top levels, doesn't have the community crying "ban") then the character wouldn't be bannable.

 

[Oblivion0101]

This is what happens when MK is banned:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313154

7 different characters in top 5? Wow. Not saying whether he should be banned or not. Just saying that it's nice seeing results like this more often.

 

[mikeHAZE]

Lol, I think Apex and MLG have something going for them besides MK being legal or illegal. The best ways to see which is more popular is to compare tournaments in the same region with different rulesets. You'd have to be a complete idiot to compare someone so notable in the community as MikeHAZE running a 44 man tournament and Ripple's mentioned 40 man tournament ran by....some school in...where ripple is.

If you think MLG having a bunch of attendance means they did everything right, then you should agree with Norfair and Green Greens. Those obviously attracted the MLG numbers.

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[Cassio]

For the first time in history, I agree with you.

Items SHOULD be legal and so should much more stages, but most people have this idea that "competitive smash = no items", so in my opinion, MK with no items should be banned.

I'd really, really love an ISP ruleset with more stages and MK

First, I pride myself on consistency. So if youre agreeing with one of my focal points theres probably very little youve disagree with unless youre being inconsistent yourself.

Secondly in a ruleset created through artificial changes to eliminate randomness and counter-balance overpowered tactics, maintaining the ideology is the next logical step, meaning banning MK without items before 1)fulfilling this ideology or 2) changing the ideology completely simply turns the game into a joke. What you seem to be missing is that those in favor of a conservative ruleset will still advocate lgls, banning brinstar/rc/ etc. regardless of MKs existance. Hence moving into my last point:

I have no sympathy for ISPers who pushed for MKs ban. With MK dominating ISP advocates had the perfect opportunity to advocate item play and increased stages, yet chose to create the worst and most logically inconsistent ruleset imaginable. I think that says a lot about their priorities.

 

[Tesh]

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Hehe, well my point still stands. Its absurd that anyone could think MLG was successful because MK was legal. Its not like there was an MK banned MLG or an MK banned APEX to compare it to.

 

[Cassio]

Its equally absurd to assume the opposite, which you did.

 

[ElDominio]

I have no sympathy for ISPers who pushed for MKs ban. With MK dominating ISP advocates had the perfect opportunity to advocate item play and increased stages, yet chose to create the worst and most logically inconsistent ruleset imaginable. I think that says a lot about their priorities.

And I was looking for your sympathy?
Nice one.

I just said I'd prefer ISP above everything else, but saying the word "item" in a serious discussion is just flamebait, and people would just go "lawl, Brawl kids now play with items"

If you're too salty about MK being banned, tough luck. Go cry somewhere (or keep crying here, that's what this thread is for).
Some people have tried a lot tog et items into competitive play, but we've been shots down quite hard before.
So, in your "next logical step" idea, would be to make this widely accepted ruleset a bit less, crappy, meaning: No MK.

 

[Cassio]

You certainly are if you want the community to accept your standard. I didnt see a single ISPer discuss how items would balance out overpowered tactics during any of the ban discussion. ever.

This wasnt a logical step it was a bitter backlash essentially saying "if I cant have my way you arent getting yours, I dont care how much of a joke the game becomes". As I said there were only two real good decisions, fulfilling the conservative ruleset ideology or advocating a true 'developer intent' type ideology.

 

[da K.I.D.]

im a bit lost on your line of logic here.

what exactly are you saying should be included in a mk less ruleset? are you saying that in order to ban mk we have to unban items? im not quite following.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You haven't played our meta knights...we got people that make you put the controller down consistently. That's absolutely ridiculous. Smash is a game and skill should be able to spread to other character use either way. So top player will still be that. Whether they are playing chess or checkers. If you understand what I'm getting at. We have collectively evolved meta knight 100 times lol! It is time..."The sun will come out tomorrow"!

Get better.

Get. Better.

I'm just going to ignore Europe for this, despite the fact that Ally wouldn't go MK against Mr R, because we all know Europe has mediocre MKs. Japan does not have this problem and is better than you. Get better.

this thread is still going? Coool.

Can someone address this?

Well obviously their philosophy regarding stages is wrong (never mind that MK breaks at least two currently legal stages and that all the good counterpicks against him are banned, two with very shaky reasoning), they don't have any good MKs (despite like Orochi going fairly even with the best Olimars and ICs of the country), they don't play to win (despite the fact that the only time a top player of theirs came here, he got second at MLG), and blah blah blah.

The problem here is that you are being very dismissive of the stalling situation. MK can easily stall and run the clock without breaking any rules. Simply saying that the rules ban stalling because that doesnt do anything to impede the ability for him to stay in the air outside of an opponents range for an exorbitant amount of time and than you his 'wayy too goo but not game breaking moves' to safely exit the situation and repeat the process. It doesnt matter how you try to alter the rules , mk will still be too good at running away.

You mean dair camping, which any good player can and will beat if they play well? No, sorry, you're wrong. MK's ability to run the clock is above average, but its relation to broken is similar to the relation between Snake's ability to score kills and broken. This is stupid and wrong, and the results do not show it.

Now the question that you have to ask YOURSELF, is how many Meta Knight specific rues do you feel should be implemented before you can admit to the character being bannable? Other characters camp the ledge but the Ledge Grab Limit was specifically put in place to impede MK. Other characters can fly under the stage but the scrooging rule was put in place to specifically target MK. The current stage list, and then some added stages, are generally fair to the cast relative to how we play the game (which is to say that we cant make a stagelist that makes ganon viable but its fair to the cast as a whole) but people want to reduce the stage list to 5, 3 or in some cases even one stage, specifically because of MK. Now, how many more rules should we put in place to make Mk fair before you come to the conclusion that he is bannable?

Oh my god can we please, please make this stupid argument stop? Ledge grab limits are not and never were specifically for MK. They actually tried it with MK-specific LGLs, and then we collectively decided, "Yep, this is gay". And now that MK is gone, I'm pretty sure that most of the players are just one more RichBrown vs. Will or ADHD vs. Will away from there being an overwhelming majority of us in support of a global LGL. Please, please stop touting the LGL as an "MK-specific" rule. It isn't. MK is the reason it's absolutely necessary, but without it I don't think most people actually want to play against, say, G&W or Pit.

I usually dont like to do this but I feel the analogy fits well here.

Could the Street Fighter 2 community have simply banned Akumas air fireballs and kept him legal for tournaments? Sure they could. But even if they did, im sure he would have still been the best character in the game and would have taken most of the top spots at major tourneys. But they decided (maybe not explicitly, but definitely implicitly) that if they had to ban specific moves and tactics and write an entire rulebook simply for one character that was wayy too good anyway. It would be simpler, easier, and better for the game to simply ban him outright.

It'd be a decent comparison if, say, Akuma, Dalshim, and Sagat all had air fireballs, the game had a built-in counter for air fireballs, and you could easily check after the match how many everyone had done. Yeah, even if we decide Akuma needs to be banned anyways, we still need to deal with the air fireballs of the other characters, or ban them outright.

theres a difference between the atlantic north wanting to eliminate randomness, with inui trying to go down to a like 3 starter list and like 5 counterpicks, and people saying MK wouldnt be as dominant if we went the japanese route and only made bf, fd, and sv legal, or did things the Euro way and playing every single game on smashville.

Europe is, on average, more liberal than APEX. Just thought I'd clear that up. No country I know of is more conservative than APEX; most have either 10 or 11 counterpicks, always giving Brinstar the boot and then everywhere but france bans RC, and AFAIK almost everywhere but Germany bans PS2. Come on, please at least pretend to know what you're talking about.

Lots of people wanted conservative stagelists but nobody talked about having less then 5 stages legal until the idea that it would help MK not be so broken came up.

And I don't think anyone is advocating 5 stages legal right now either. I could be wrong, but most of us just want RC and Brinstar banned, and I think a lot of people who are pro-ban want that anyways. I am pretty sure that even with MK banned, very few people in Europe would advocate going to the Unity stagelist, because they think that RC and Brinstar are anticompetitive.

This is what happens when MK is banned:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=313154

7 different characters in top 5? Wow. Not saying whether he should be banned or not. Just saying that it's nice seeing results like this more often.

Read M2K's first post. It's based on region; beyond the 4 ridiculously good MK players, NY/NJ is fairly well-spread. Get rid of them and it's pretty obvious what'll happen. I mean, FFS, am I the only one who noticed SiiS6's results? You know, the one with MK legal but no MKs in top 3 and one in top 8?

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Ok...who is the best at Smash then?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ok...who is the best at Smash then?

*watches BPC's post sail right over this kid's head.*

Smooth Criminal

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Ok...who is the best at Smash then?

Yes, I enjoy the odd non sequitur as well. ^_^

 

[Ghostbone]

Read M2K's first post. It's based on region; beyond the 4 ridiculously good MK players, NY/NJ is fairly well-spread. Get rid of them and it's pretty obvious what'll happen. I mean, FFS, am I the only one who noticed SiiS6's results? You know, the one with MK legal but no MKs in top 3 and one in top 8?

You mean the tournament that like, 1 MK went to?

 

[Juushichi]

The best MK got first at that tournament, by the way. No, I don't mean Kel.

Shugo has also put a ton of time into his MK and is also considered to be the best or definitely one of the exclusives in our region that can lay feasible claim that title.

 

[Battousai780]

Are the same old and tired arguments as to why MK should be banned still being debated ad nauseum? I'm pretty sure we determined that only people who are bad at the game want to ban MK. lol

 

[Ghostbone]

Are the same old and tired arguments as to why MK should be banned still being debated ad nauseum? I'm pretty sure we determined that only people who are bad at the game want to ban MK. lol

Yea, ADHD man, so terrible at Brawl.

 

[Dre89]

BPC, my old rival, I'm here to haunt you again.

I really don't understand the 'get better' argument.

Rules have been put in place to nerf him, and he's by far the most studied MU by every character board, yet he still dominates.

If that's not proof that the 'get better' argument is fallacious, then what would it take for you to believe that 'get better' is not an option?

It seems to me that what you consider broken is something that is overpowered at even low levels of play, as in that a low level playere can abuse a tactic that will achieve victory over high level players. Competitive brawl caters to high level play, so something that is only broken at a high level play is still considred broken. The learning curve behind broken tactics is irrelevant.

 

[Battousai780]

Yea, ADHD man, so terrible at Brawl.

Yeah, ADHD man, who plays a character almost as "broken" as MK and is salty because of Mew2king.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Get better.

Get. Better.


Oh my god can we please, please make this stupid argument stop? Ledge grab limits are not and never were specifically for MK. They actually tried it with MK-specific LGLs, and then we collectively decided, "Yep, this is gay". And now that MK is gone, I'm pretty sure that most of the players are just one more RichBrown vs. Will or ADHD vs. Will away from there being an overwhelming majority of us in support of a global LGL. Please, please stop touting the LGL as an "MK-specific" rule. It isn't. MK is the reason it's absolutely necessary, but without it I don't think most people actually want to play against, say, G&W or Pit.

I just had to quote this together. You try to bring up will vs rich brown, while convieniently avoiding will vs adhd (hint hint, adhd is a better player) where the one player who was lesser, got beat by it, and the player who decided to, in your words, "GET BETTER" beat it soundly.

Pit planking and GWatch planking isnt that big a deal because its not as good as MK planking, and those characters dont have Mks moveset to put on top of that ledge camping to make it too good.

It'd be a decent comparison if, say, Akuma, Dalshim, and Sagat all had air fireballs, the game had a built-in counter for air fireballs, and you could easily check after the match how many everyone had done. Yeah, even if we decide Akuma needs to be banned anyways, we still need to deal with the air fireballs of the other characters, or ban them outright.

dhalsim and sagat do have fireballs, akuma has a fireball thats better and more efficient and has better frame advantage and is straight up stronger due to being usable in the air.

And its not like you cant block them or that they pierce block or something, so statements like, theres no built in counter for them is kinda bs. its not like the air firebals are a completely different move from the ground ones, theyre just better.

Europe is, on average, more liberal than APEX. Just thought I'd clear that up. No country I know of is more conservative than APEX; most have either 10 or 11 counterpicks, always giving Brinstar the boot and then everywhere but france bans RC, and AFAIK almost everywhere but Germany bans PS2. Come on, please at least pretend to know what you're talking about.

I never said that the ruleset forces you guys to only play on one stage, I only said that typicially thats how you guys choose go about it.

And I don't think anyone is advocating 5 stages legal right now either. I could be wrong, but most of us just want RC and Brinstar banned, and I think a lot of people who are pro-ban want that anyways. I am pretty sure that even with MK banned, very few people in Europe would advocate going to the Unity stagelist, because they think that RC and Brinstar are anticompetitive.

did you see the concentrate matches on brinstar in doubles? the stage is actually incredibly competitive, without Mk to just auto counter everything the stage becomes incredibly diverse, and fun and competitive.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The best MK got first at that tournament, by the way. No, I don't mean Kel.

Shugo has also put a ton of time into his MK and is also considered to be the best or definitely one of the exclusives in our region that can lay feasible claim that title.

He also used his MK once that I could see in top-8. Once. And that was when Infern counterpicked him to Brinstar. So okay, let's call it one and a half MKs in top 8, and half an MK in top 3. Your point?

You mean the tournament that like, 1 MK went to?

Uh... Yeah. Notice how a lot of MW tournaments tend to be like that?

BPC, my old rival, I'm here to haunt you again.

I really don't understand the 'get better' argument.

Rules have been put in place to nerf him,

I have debunked this several times, including in the post you are referring to. Learn to read please.

and he's by far the most studied MU by every character board, yet he still dominates.

...In the USA. Actually, specifically only in certain regions of the USA. Where, you know, most of the top players live. His dominance is extremely regional, and based largely on the fact that the players winning with him are ****ing amazing.

If that's not proof that the 'get better' argument is fallacious, then what would it take for you to believe that 'get better' is not an option?

How about similar results anywhere other than NY/NJ, or from players that aren't the top players from NY/NJ?

It seems to me that what you consider broken is something that is overpowered at even low levels of play, as in that a low level playere can abuse a tactic that will achieve victory over high level players. Competitive brawl caters to high level play, so something that is only broken at a high level play is still considred broken. The learning curve behind broken tactics is irrelevant.

...Yes, non-sequiturs are a lot of fun. How the hell did we get from "get better" to a position that I consider absolutely ridiculous and ********?

 

[Dre89]

It's a position you hold, you just don't realise it.

See the fact that you demand MK domination in regions where there aren't amazing MK players shows that for you to consider MK to be broken, he has to be successfully abusable at lower levels of play.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't alot of good MKs people who originally used lesser characters, but then changed to MK due to being held back by MK abuse?

Also, you still need to answer me in the personhood thread.

 

[Ghostbone]

Uh... Yeah. Notice how a lot of MW tournaments tend to be like that?

So now you're argument is that MK isn't a problem if nobody uses him?

Well yea, that's kinda the reason many people want him banned, so that he's no longer a massive problem...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I just had to quote this together. You try to bring up will vs rich brown, while convieniently avoiding will vs adhd (hint hint, adhd is a better player) where the one player who was lesser, got beat by it, and the player who decided to, in your words, "GET BETTER" beat it soundly.

Are you kidding me? Reread the quote. Hell, ctr+f "ADHD" and you'll see that I specifically mentioned it. What actually happened in that set was that first ADHD got wrecked by planking, and then he didn't lose the lead. Unless I've got my info wrong.

Pit planking and GWatch planking isnt that big a deal because its not as good as MK planking, and those characters dont have Mks moveset to put on top of that ledge camping to make it too good.

Yes, but guess what: people will still ***** about it. It's beatable, but oh god is it gay. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that at a tournament without LGLs, if a pit/G&W/DK/etc decided to pull out all the stops and play really gay, nobody would want to play brawl any more, at least not with that ruleset.

dhalsim and sagat do have fireballs, akuma has a fireball thats better and more efficient and has better frame advantage and is straight up stronger due to being usable in the air.

Air fireball being the key word there. I'm not completely illiterate when it comes to street fighter, you know. I actually watched quite a lot of Evo sets, including one grand finals set in Super Turbo between Chunli and Sagat. I think you might be illiterate though, or at least very, very bad at reading comprehension.

And its not like you cant block them or that they pierce block or something, so statements like, theres no built in counter for them is kinda bs. its not like the air firebals are a completely different move from the ground ones, theyre just better.

No, Akuma's air fireball is a completely different move due to its angle of approach and how it works. But whatever, let's drop this because apparently arguing with you about street fighter is like arguing with Jebus about rulesets.

I never said that the ruleset forces you guys to only play on one stage, I only said that typicially thats how you guys choose go about it.

It happens, but not nearly as often as you think.

did you see the concentrate matches on brinstar in doubles? the stage is actually incredibly competitive, without Mk to just auto counter everything the stage becomes incredibly diverse, and fun and competitive.

Yes, the position being that if a character breaks a stage in half, the character may not be the problem. Not entirely on board with that one myself, but that's how most of us think. And I think Gheb had some other complaints about it.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's a position you hold, you just don't realise it.

See the fact that you demand MK domination in regions where there aren't amazing MK players shows that for you to consider MK to be broken, he has to be successfully abusable at lower levels of play.

No, I'm saying that MK is not a problem outside of NY/NJ. That's all. That's literally all I'm saying. I demand that MK dominate at least more than one ****ing region, because I think the problem is in fact the players; that Ally, Anti, Nairo, and Mew2King are, in fact, the best players in the nation, and that they win with MK, not because of MK. If you could just win with MK without too much work, we'd see it. But no, somehow we only have established top players winning with the character. Hmm, that's odd...

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't alot of good MKs people who originally used lesser characters, but then changed to MK due to being held back by MK abuse?

Recently Ally, and... uh...

Also, you still need to answer me in the personhood thread.

Yes, I don't have time for a long-*** debate before school in the morning, and you are not my favorite person to debate with, partially because you are mind-blowingly obtuse in some regards.

So now you're argument is that MK isn't a problem if nobody uses him?

Well yea, that's kinda the reason many people want him banned, so that he's no longer a massive problem...

Read above... He's also not a problem if, say, not half the ****ing community uses him. Which, surprisingly enough, is only not the case in very certain parts of the USA.

 

[Dre89]

But broken doesn't equal success with little work. Breaking refers to breaking the game, regardless of learning curve. That's like saying that bringing a machine gun to a knife fight isn't broken, because a machine gun is more complicated to operate than a knife.

MK has no bad stages, requires no secondary, and has tactics which become virtually unbeatable regardless of what the opponent does. This makes the CP system, the secondary metagame, and reaction/reads largely obsolete, which is what competitive brawl is about, regardless of how hard it is to do those things.

And with the personhood thread, you conceded that I made a good argument, and now I'm mindblowingly obtuse?

 

[Ripple]

Recently Ally, and... uh...
.

Lain, TKD, MJG, OS, Vinnie, Logic...probably more I can't think of atm

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lain, TKD, MJG, OS, Vinnie, Logic...probably more I can't think of atm

None of those players would ever get as far as they do now without their other characters

 

[Ripple]

None of those players would ever get as far as they do now without both characters

thats exactly why I listed them

 

[SaveMeJebus]

thats exactly why I listed them

but you make it seem like the only reason they place where they place is because of MK

 

[Ripple]

but you make it seem like the only reason they place where they place is because of MK

I didn't make it seem like anything. l2read

 

[Dre89]

Anti bans- 25% of an arbitray community which owes them nothing, who complain when the other 75% want to play differently, and insist that the 75% play their way, after having it their way for three years.

Anything wrong with this statement?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK is the best secondary in the game. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't every top player in Melee used Fox as a secondary at one point or another?

 

[Ripple]

MK is the best secondary in the game. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't every top player in Melee used Fox as a secondary at one point or another?

you are wrong on the melee statement. people who don't or didn't follow melee for at least 3 years shouldn't talk about melee like they know it

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I wish people would quit using those percentages. It leads to misrepresentations of the data. Only 900 some odd people voted, so a whole 225 voted no to 675 yes. That's still a pretty small population sample for all votes total.

 

[Orion*]

people wanted conservative stagelists but nobody talked about having less then 5 stages legal until the idea that it would help MK not be so broken came up.

Not really.
I always felt that RC and Brins should be banned, and the longer I've played the stronger those feelings have gotten. Especially when I moved to EU

LGLs haven't really done anything to stop MK from timing people out though. He can still be basically invincible without grabbing the ledge more than 20 times or so, the ledge was just a convenience.

This is absolutely not true. By fact of frame data, OR practicality.

I still think the Japanese and European players who have commented on this subject have done it with very wrong cultural assumptions about why Americans play their characters or how we play the game. American MKs are better, and are better not because we're better players but because there are MKs at like a 5:1 ratio to any other random character. When we say American MKs are better it isn't any kind of smug exceptionalism, it's just the logical truth of the situation. Europe has better Yoshis and Peaches and Marths and all kinds of things.

There isn't even like a large yoshi's/peache influx here wtf LMAO. I haven't played one in tournament since I've lived in the US...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

you are wrong on the melee statement. people who don't or didn't fallow melee for at least 3 years shouldn't talk about melee like they know it

I did. PC Chris, Ken, M2K and Mango all have and had Fox secondaries

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thats why I cant take anyone seriously who argues against lgls unless they also advocate item play and stages like bridge of eldin.

If theyre going to ban shiz that creates overpowered tactics dont whine when people ask for more necessary artificial changes to balance the overpowered tactics they created. Thats just stupid. Even worse they make up some BS about these rules being about MK.

I don't advocate item play because I don't like the level of randomness it adds to the game, what does that have to do with LGLs?

I do think Bridge of Eldin should be legal (along with the majority of stages + FLoSSing) but I still don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

Oh my god can we please, please make this stupid argument stop? Ledge grab limits are not and never were specifically for MK.

MK has a lower LGL than the other characters... Which does make it a specific nerf.

They actually tried it with MK-specific LGLs, and then we collectively decided, "Yep, this is gay". And now that MK is gone, I'm pretty sure that most of the players are just one more RichBrown vs. Will or ADHD vs. Will away from there being an overwhelming majority of us in support of a global LGL. Please, please stop touting the LGL as an "MK-specific" rule. It isn't. MK is the reason it's absolutely necessary, but without it I don't think most people actually want to play against, say, G&W or Pit.

Yes, but guess what: people will still ***** about it. It's beatable, but oh god is it gay. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that at a tournament without LGLs, if a pit/G&W/DK/etc decided to pull out all the stops and play really gay, nobody would want to play brawl any more, at least not with that ruleset.

And you know what? I didn't want to play against Diddy Kong's banana camping when ADHD popularized it early on in the game's life, I'm sure there were a few people who thought Diddy Kong was a really gay character after playing against him... Do you want to know what those players did?

They stopped whining, stopped being scrubs and got better. Why can't the community do this with LGLs?

Yeah, ADHD man, who plays a character almost as "broken" as MK and is salty because of Mew2king.

Oh great, you're back >_>

I did. PC Chris, Ken, M2K and Mango all have and had Fox secondaries

PP? Armada? Chu Dat? Isai? Darkrain? HBox? Shroomed? Amsah? Axe? Hugs?

You can't just only name the people who support your point, lol.