Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Smooth Criminal]

And with the personhood thread, you conceded that I made a good argument, and now I'm mindblowingly obtuse?

In certain respects, yes.

>_> Didn't you get that from what he wrote?

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ripple]

I did. PC Chris, Ken, M2K and Mango all have and or had Fox secondaries

Darkrain, Hbox, shroomed, kirby kaze, Kage, AXE, Hugs,

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Darkrain, Hbox, shroomed, kirby kaze, Kage, AXE, Hugs,

ADHD, Razor, Trela, Esam, Nick Riddle, Gnes

 

[Ripple]

ADHD, Razor, Trela, Esam, Nick Riddle, Gnes

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

They have pocket MKs...? I dunno.

._.

Smooth Criminal

 

[SaveMeJebus]

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

What was the point of your post? Your players don't use fox, Mine don't use MK

 

[Grim Tuesday]

This is absolutely not true. By fact of frame data, OR practicality.

The effect the LGL has had is more of a psychological one. People often fail to take into account that they CAN plank as long as the game doesn't go to time, so they just don't plank at all.

There are lots of situations where planking is a good idea, if you watch Tearbear vs. SK92 on Pokemon Stadium you can see TB intelligently planking to gain an advantage through the stage transformations.

 

[Ripple]

MK is the best secondary in the game. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't every top player in Melee used Fox as a secondary at one point or another?

you are wrong on the melee statement. people who don't or didn't follow melee for at least 3 years shouldn't talk about melee like they know it

I did. PC Chris, Ken, M2K and Mango all have and had Fox secondaries

Darkrain, Hbox, shroomed, kirby kaze, Kage, AXE, Hugs,

ADHD, Razor, Trela, Esam, Nick Riddle, Gnes

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

What was the point of your post? Your players don't use fox, Mine don't use MK

try being intelligent, seriously. try it sometime.

none of the top players I listed play fox. we were talking about melee

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Lain, TKD, MJG, OS, Vinnie, Logic...probably more I can't think of atm

It would make sense if you went back as far as this post. Also, any character in S tier is basically an MK equivalent (not just fox)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Lain, TKD, MJG, OS, Vinnie, Logic...probably more I can't think of atm

Overswarm and Lain are both incredibly old news. This was what, two years ago? Might as well count me; I switch from snake to MK about two years ago. Or M2K, who went from ****** everyone with DDD to ****** everyone with MK a few years back. Obviously there's a reason we ignore old statistics. TKD plays MK on counterpicks only, because he's convinced that MK is broken as **** on them. Vinnie and Logic are news to me. Most of these are not truly top players.

Anti bans- 25% of an arbitray community which owes them nothing, who complain when the other 75% want to play differently, and insist that the 75% play their way, after having it their way for three years.

Anything wrong with this statement?

Yep, the %s are probably inaccurate. Assuming they are accurate though? The only problem I could throw up is the fact that pro-ban does not universally want to play the game the same way. The stage rage crew, the ISP crowd, and many more such fringe groups are pretty widely pro-ban. Oh and it's an appeal to the majority. That said...

On a whole though... Well, there's a reason I'm here more for DA practice than anything else. This argument really does just squash anti-ban. Everything in this community is an appeal to majority.

I do think Bridge of Eldin should be legal (along with the majority of stages + FLoSSing) but I still don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

Case in point, Dre. -.-

MK has a lower LGL than the other characters... Which does make it a specific nerf.

ASLDFKJ$OIF§$(GHG OH MY GOD MY BRAIN JUST EXPLODED.

And you know what? I didn't want to play against Diddy Kong's banana camping when ADHD popularized it early on in the game's life, I'm sure there were a few people who thought Diddy Kong was a really gay character after playing against him... Do you want to know what those players did?

They stopped whining, stopped being scrubs and got better. Why can't the community do this with LGLs?

Beats me, maybe because it's two very different strategies with very different risk/rewards and different options for beating them? Look, I know, it's scrubby as ****. That doesn't make it wrong for the community though. Case in point: Port Town and Norfair are still pretty much universally banned.

Oh great, you're back >_>

Oh god so much this.

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

To show that the analogy fits. Grim can showcase top melee players who didn't pick up fox; Jebus can showcase top brawl players who didn't pick up MK.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

The effect the LGL has had is more of a psychological one. People often fail to take into account that they CAN plank as long as the game doesn't go to time, so they just don't plank at all.

There are lots of situations where planking is a good idea, if you watch Tearbear vs. SK92 on Pokemon Stadium you can see TB intelligently planking to gain an advantage through the stage transformations.

There are a lot of situations where planking isn't broken. Like when it's extremely limited.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

ah, this thread is funneh...

 

[Ripple]

Lain, TKD, MJG, OS, Vinnie, Logic...probably more I can't think of atm

None of those players would ever get as far as they do now without their other characters

thats exactly why I listed them

but you make it seem like the only reason they place where they place is because of MK

I didn't make it seem like anything. l2read

MK is the best secondary in the game. Also, correct me if I'm wrong but hasn't every top player in Melee used Fox as a secondary at one point or another?

you are wrong on the melee statement. people who don't or didn't follow melee for at least 3 years shouldn't talk about melee like they know it

I did. PC Chris, Ken, M2K and Mango all have and had Fox secondaries

Darkrain, Hbox, shroomed, kirby kaze, Kage, AXE, Hugs,

ADHD, Razor, Trela, Esam, Nick Riddle, Gnes

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

What was the point of your post? Your players don't use fox, Mine don't use MK

try being intelligent, seriously. try it sometime.

none of the top players I listed play fox. we were talking about melee

It would make sense if you went back as far as this post. Also, any character in S tier is basically an MK equivalent (not just fox)

there happy?

 

[Ghostbone]

This argument really does just squash anti-ban. Everything in this community is an appeal to majority.

You can look at it this way.
Even if banning MK isn't 100% the right decision competitively, it's still the right decision for the competitive community.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You can look at it this way.
Even if banning MK isn't 100% the right decision competitively, it's still the right decision for the competitive community.

It's still an appeal to majority. XD "Right" is highly subjective especially when you guys don't even know for sure yet. It's more or less an educated guess.

Smooth Criminal

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Darkrain, Hbox, shroomed, kirby kaze, Kage, AXE, Hugs,

So from this list, we can remove kirby kaze, Hbox and AXE

 

[Ghostbone]

It's still an appeal to majority. XD "Right" is highly subjective especially when you guys don't even know for sure yet.

Smooth Criminal

It's argument ad populum, but it's still perfectly relevant.
There's a difference between saying "MK is broken because 76% of the community thinks so," and "MK should be banned because 76% of the community agrees"
The former is fallacious, the latter makes sense...

 

[Orion*]

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

His point was that most top players in melee also have a pocket fox in comparison to the fact that most top players in brawl have a pocket mk.

Ripple naming people who picked up MK and did well with them
Lain, TKD, MJG, OS, Vinnie, Logic...probably more I can't think of atm

None of these players MKs even matter bar TKD.

Lains MK is ***. OS is ***. Logics MK is beyond ***. I personally think Vinnies mk is extremely good but he hasnt even really done that much with the character (but at this point he's winning with so many characters). Not sure on MJGs mk, I don't really remember it (although that tells me something :| ).

 

[John12346]

Here's the full list of people who have won money with MK in 2011.

Ripple, you can go ahead and use this to find more names if necessary.

Spoiler

Mew2King
Ally
ANTi
Seibrik
HolyNightmare
Lain
Tyrant
RedHalberd
DarkLink
Dojo
Atomsk
Jem
kismet2
Lee Martin
Gnes
SuPeRbOoM
Vinnie
Kadaj
Nairo
Sago
Zex
Havok
Dphat
KillLock
Ensis
Lee
Pwii
Umbra
Nerd
Judge
Lie
MTL
Domo
Kel
MN Moe
Shugo
Sparta Kick
Alphicans
Xaltis
Jtails
Tearbear
ADHD
Marshall
DJIskascribble
Reflex
Cheese
Magik
MeroKnight
BigLou
Hylian
Gallax
Koolaid
Sin242
Toronto Joe
Hype
Logic
Breez
Vex
Seagull
Izumi
Korn
Cura
Infinity
Mongoose
Shadow
Pelca
Neo
Bloodcross
Sync
Arty
Frank Rizzle
V3GA
M@v
Micaelis
Warioman!
d4b8
Inui
DEHF
FAE
Boxxy
EE
Spuperwolf
MetaKill
TypeX
Junebug
Xzax
Felix
Omni
jpIsCrAzY
Overswarm
H1N1
Iliad
ChKn
Tantalus
Genghis Pot
Mampam
Bassem
K9
Moe
Curlz
Sushi
Jbandrew
Gio
Bowyer
TKD
ResTy
Firefly
Kaffei
TKCK
Battou
Deap
Viviff
Dakpo
Poyo
MikeHAZE
Smurf
DRN
JMo
Stud Stallion
Blaise
Xdeath
Maki
Chaz
VICE
Facey
Fino
Nacho
NAKAT
Fonz
Sean
Clel
Crazy
Voltage
Fiji
Will_
Lethal Trilogy
DoomMachine
Afro
yoshQ
Fatboy
Mintyflesh
Gebroni
TrumpTight
MJG
Ryquaza
SSGuy
WTP
TV
Archer
Almo
Eggz
Flame
Bluez
Rayquaza07
Dawei
Fizzle
Kola
Pitzer
DLA
Mikalott
lol.
.D
Mr. L
MeekSpeedy
KoN!
KiraFlax
Panty
KingAce
69dude
Rei-Gun
Shank
Angel Lopez
Kassandra
Stroumbert
HINKAGE
Boss
Paul Wall
UltimateRazer
Sax
Culex
Bpow
Orion
Tiger
Azure_Kenny
PzO
Ori_Bro
Mar1
Billybeegood
Jard
Bizkit
Marly
ALSM
DarkShifter
Mooninite
Junk
Dis-gord
NGAMER
Chouceman
Kyokoro
Twinx
JoeST

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

Yes, I enjoy the odd non sequitur as well. ^_^

Yeah...you need to tone it down in post length and emotions. But you're cool.

*watches BPC's post sail right over this kid's head.*

Smooth Criminal

Yeah...I'll just stay I was too lazy to read. So USA all day. Eur is free. BTW, this "kid" is 18.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's argument ad populum, but it's still perfectly relevant.
There's a difference between saying "MK is broken because 76% of the community thinks so," and "MK should be banned because 76% of the community agrees"
The former is fallacious, the latter makes sense...

I'm not well-versed in debate jargon. Thanks for clearing that up.

My point still stands, though. Most of the pro-banners can breathe their collective sighs of relief now, but what about later? *shrugs.*

I think the overcentralization criterion is going to come back and bite the Brawl community in the *** one of these days.

Edit: @ Kirby x Sonic: I don't care if you're thirty. With that kinda mentality, you're a kid.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dre89]

BPC- Yes it's an appeal to authority amongst other things, but when you have a community playing a video game, there is nothing wrong with that. Especially when the people who don't like the changes aren't forced to stay in that community.

I find it ridiculous to think it's reasonable to demand that 75% of people play a video game the way 25% wants.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Case in point, Dre. -.-

FLoSSing is an amazing method of stage selection. Don't knock it.

ASLDFKJ$OIF§$(GHG OH MY GOD MY BRAIN JUST EXPLODED.

That's nice.

Beats me, maybe because it's two very different strategies with very different risk/rewards and different options for beating them? Look, I know, it's scrubby as ****. That doesn't make it wrong for the community though. Case in point: Port Town and Norfair are still pretty much universally banned.

I know

There are a lot of situations where planking isn't broken. Like when it's extremely limited.

Oh, I know, I wasn't trying to make a case for MK being banworthy, just speaking my thoughts aloud, I guess.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

BPC- Yes it's an appeal to authority amongst other things, but when you have a community playing a video game, there is nothing wrong with that. Especially when the people who don't like the changes aren't forced to stay in that community.

I find it ridiculous to think it's reasonable to demand that 75% of people play a video game the way 25% wants.

But if we get to vote for decisions like this, then why not for others like only three starters and banning Brinstar and RC?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

BPC- Yes it's an appeal to authority amongst other things, but when you have a community playing a video game, there is nothing wrong with that. Especially when the people who don't like the changes aren't forced to stay in that community.

I find it ridiculous to think it's reasonable to demand that 75% of people play a video game the way 25% wants.

I don't think BPC was inferring that it was good or bad. I think he was referring to the fact that it is what it is.

>_> I'm beginning to think Alt's right about you, Dre. You really like to cram words in somebody's mouth.

But, yeah. You're right about the demands of the lesser percentiles---if that were really the case. It's still majority rules, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Dre89]

But if we get to vote for decisions like this, then why not for others like only three starters and or banning Brinstar and RC?

If the community for some reason all of a sudden wants to use items, then no one has the right to tell them they can't. If you insist on playing without items, you can just go make your own separate community.

People are acting as if they're stuck in this community and are forced to go to MK banned tourneys.

It's a video game community, it's not under any moral obligation when it comes to these decisions. It's not as if anti-bans are owed anything, having such a big community is a privellage to begin with.

The people who rule changes hurt the most are the top players who make money, but they are probably owed the least seeing as they've taken the most. It's not as if the community is obliged to cater to them anyway.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If the community for some reason all of a sudden wants to use items, then no one has the right to tell them they can't. If you insist on playing without items, you can just go make your own separate community.

People are acting as if they're stuck in this community and are forced to go to MK banned tourneys.

It's a video game community, it's not under any moral obligation when it comes to these decisions. It's not as if anti-bans are owed anything, having such a big community is a privellage to begin with.

The people who rule changes hurt the most are the top players who make money, but they are probably owed the least seeing as they've taken the most. It's not as if the community is obliged to cater to them anyway.

But these Polls would also be voted on by the community

 

[stingers]

none of these players play melee.

wtf is the point of this post?

adhd, esam, and nick riddle all played melee before brawl came out lol

 

[da K.I.D.]

If the community for some reason all of a sudden wants to use items, then no one has the right to tell them they can't. If you insist on playing without items, you can just go make your own separate community.

People are acting as if they're stuck in this community and are forced to go to MK banned tourneys.

It's a video game community, it's not under any moral obligation when it comes to these decisions. It's not as if anti-bans are owed anything, having such a big community is a privellage to begin with.

The people who rule changes hurt the most are the top players who make money, but they are probably owed the least seeing as they've taken the most. It's not as if the community is obliged to cater to them anyway.

I like this a lot.

adhd, esam, and nick riddle all played melee before brawl came out lol

Im not too sure this is true.

I feel like Esam at the least started playing melee after brawl came out.

 

[KirbyandSonicrock14]

I'm not well-versed in debate jargon. Thanks for clearing that up.


Edit: @ Kirby x Sonic: I don't care if you're thirty. With that kinda mentality, you're a kid.

Smooth Criminal

I hate being called that. Anyways, does this ban also affect nationals as well?

 

[Ripple]

So from this list, we can remove kirby kaze, Hbox and AXE

and why is that? because you said so? they sure don't play fox

 

[Ripple]

adhd, esam, and nick riddle all played melee before brawl came out lol

I used the present tense for a reason

 

[SaveMeJebus]

and why is that? because you said so? they sure don't play fox

They play an S tier character. Any S tier character is basically an MK equivalent

 

[da K.I.D.]

the difference between fox and metaknight is that depending on who you ask, theres 1-4 characters in the same tier as fox. Theres nobody in the same tier as Mk, since hes that far above every other character in his game. fox is not like that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

the difference between fox and metaknight is that depending on who you ask, theres 1-4 characters in the same tier as fox. Theres nobody in the same tier as Mk, since hes that far above every other character in his game. fox is not like that.

What's your point? Those four characters overcentralize that game more than MK ever could.There would be more character diversity without those four characters in the game.

 

[Ripple]

They play an S tier character. Any S tier character is basically an MK equivalent

why? because they are in a tier called S also?

 

[John12346]

There is no character in Melee who is as dominant as MK. Not even close...

 

[da K.I.D.]

What's your point? Those four characters overcentralize that game more than MK ever could.

Thats why melee is a bad game that for the most part, isnt worth playing.

See my sig.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

There is no character in Melee who is as dominant as MK. Not even close...

What about when you compare S tiers?

 

[Ripple]

What's your point? Those four characters overcentralize that game more than MK ever could.There would be more character diversity without those four characters in the game.

I told you to stop posting about melee when clearly you have no idea about the metagame