Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Ripple]

And if I bring up TKD, you guys find an excuse for that

he plays MK on opponents CP

 

[John12346]

Jebus, that's because I have X-2 videos of evidence on my side, where X stands for any Japanese tournament match with a MK in it.

TKD vs Tyrant is one set.
That Japanese MK playing like a real American MK was also one set.

You need more than that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

he plays MK on opponents CP

Then ban those stages first

@John12346, If we had more TKDs, I wouldn't have this problem

 

[Ripple]

But you guys put him in that tier. He doesn't deserve to be banned anymore than Melee's S tier deserves to be banned

and AGAIN you ignore my point about pokemon.

he deserves to be in that tier. but just because you are in S tier doesn't mean you'll get banned.

again stop talking about melee, you know NOTHING of the metagame

 

[SaveMeJebus]

and AGAIN you ignore my point about pokemon.

he deserves to be in that tier. but just because you are in S tier doesn't mean you'll get banned.

again stop talking about melee, you know NOTHING of the metagame

Everyone in Uber (S tier) is banned from OU (S tier banned). If you are in the same tier as another character who is banned, what makes you less bannable?

 

[Ripple]

Everyone in Uber (S tier) is banned from OU (S tier banned).

and I told you that WE, THE BRAWL COMMUNITY, were playing the equivalent of an Ubers metagame, where EVERY POKEMON IS ALLOWED not just S tier.

our new standard is the same as their OU

 

[John12346]

Jebus, you do realize that Uber Tier in Pokemon is basically all of the Legendary Pokemon, AKA the ones DESIGNED to have above average stats and stuff. They're "banned" because they otherwise DESTROY most if not all of the Pokemon in the below tiers.

There's no character in Melee who dominates the game quite as hard as an Uber Pokemon, it's as simple as that.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Jebus, you do realize that Uber Tier in Pokemon is basically all of the Legendary Pokemon, AKA the ones DESIGNED to have above average stats and stuff. They're banned because they otherwise DESTROY most if not all of the Pokemon in the below tiers.

There's no character in Melee who dominates the game quite as hard as an Uber Pokemon, it's as simple as that.

Unless you want to put Fox and Deoxys-A on equal footing...

If S tier = Ubers then yes. Fox, Falco, Jiggs and Shiek do = Uber.

 

[John12346]

Except for the part where A and B Tier still place in the money in Melee tournies, while OU virtually has no chance of winning matches against Ubers...

 

[Battousai780]

How do you compare two different games? There are so many more mindgames and options in Brawl while you CONSTANTLY must focus and think. Competitive pokemon is legit, but it's no where near the same.

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Batt - I wouldn't be so sure...There's been some pretty serious stuff. My friend recently made a berry/baton pass build in pokemon that somehow refreshed the berry so he could continuously use the berry's affect (I wanna say it was a berry to heal or it was a berry to wake up after sleeping via a sleep based attack...cant remember) I could be mis-remembering some other parts of the build...I remember it involved berries (And iirc, those berries were refreshing for some reason) and baton pass....And the build went ****in WILDFIRE all over smogon 2 years back....dunno how well known/used it is now. Pokemon I would argue has a larger metagame for the simple fact that it has HUNDREDS of potential enemy pokemon....That's a LOT of variables....

 

[Ghostbone]

If S tier = Ubers then yes. Fox, Falco, Jiggs and Shiek do = Uber.

You're so dumb.

Just because in one game the character that's far and away the best character and as such is in his own tier is banworthy, doesn't mean that 4-5 characters in another game who are slightly better than the characters below them deserve to be banned.

If you want me to put it simply, MK is more like SSS tier compared to Melee's S tier.

Except for the part where A and B Tier still place in the money in Melee tournies, while OU virtually has no chance of winning matches against Ubers...

Eh, it's hard to compare the games (you play 6 Pokemon, while you only use 1 character in Brawl...), Pokemon below ubers can be viable in the ubers metagame, an example is Quagsire, possibly the best counter to Kyogre (who's basically the best ever), and he's NU.
Then you have others like Scissor, Blissey, etc. Obviously you're not going to get very far in the ubers metagame without having ubers on your team, but pretty much all OU have some niche they can fill in ubers, though they may be out-classed in certain areas.


Also, you can't really compare the tiers in Pokemon to the tiers in Smash.
In Pokemon ignoring Ubers, afaik tier positions are entirely determined by how often they're used in the OU metagame, with a few exceptions. Ubers are simply pokemon who are too strong for OU, mostly legendaries, though some legendaries are OU or even UU (Mew for example), and some regular pokemon are Uber (Blaziken, Garchomp).

 

[Eon the Wolf]

Found this video, thought of you Jebus; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrjMkeXGfGM
----------------
That is true concerning the pokemon. There are HUNDREDS, so at least DOZENS of the pokemon have unexplored potential...It's INFINITELY changing strategies and popularity of pokemon, maybe not as often as smash but when it does it's definitely on a much larger scale....

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Grim: I meant the Eldin comment, not the Flossing one. Flossing ftw.

The comments were one in the same... By definition flossing (ftw) has Eldin legal...

By removing items you've created the necessity for lgls, and yet complain about the lgls existence.

But my removal of items is due to chance, not some random-*** arbitrary criteria. If I created a ruleset that banned items due to their randomness it would not lead to any double standards; you are essentially inventing a hypocrisy that doesn't exist.

You complain about meta knights ability to abuse the current ruleset, yet removed the balancing tools inherently existent in the game and complain about attempts to fix the resulting imbalance.

Essentially you and those I described (inclusive of most of the URC) force the MK monster into existance, and then ask for him to be banned. Given two valid options you found the most ridiculous and nonsensical third option. If that isnt the perfect example of stupidity then no such example exists.

This is what the situation looks like to me, if we exaggerate it.

There is an option in a game to make the result 100% random.
There is a character in this game who has 100/0 MUs against every other character.
This game is uncompetitive, to fix it, doing one of the following is necessary:
a) Turn the random result option on, game is still uncompetitive.
b) Ban the best character in the game, game becomes competitive.

I believe that items decrease the game's competitive merit overall due to their randomness, but I also believe Meta Knight is uncompetitive because of his oversimplfication of the game. I believe that banning MK is the lesser of two evils, in this situation.

In my eyes, taking the game from uncompetitive to almost competitive makes much less sense than taking the game from uncompetitive to competitive.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Just in Louisiana and Texas alone (where there are some pretty ****ing good people), MK is in no way dominant in terms of winning money or character usage %.

This is really what bothers me about this. We extrapolate from one extremely powerful region of the country (NY/NJ) and go from there to the entire country's metagame. When NY/NJ doesn't show, neither do the MKs (as seen in SiiS6, for example), and there isn't a problem. The MKs that did show didn't win (beyond Shugo, but calling that a win for MK is like calling Vinnie at KTAR6 a win for MK: he used MK like once in a set that mattered). Apparently TX doesn't have an MK problem... Socal really doesn't have a serious MK problem... PNorth doesn't AFAIK... MW definitely doesn't... Florida doesn't... NE has a snake problem... Huh. It's like the only region that has an MK problem is NY/NJ, and that's where all the best players are. Weird.

I've never heard of fox being a MK counterpick, nor have I seen any foxes beat MK at the high level tournaments. Find me a link, and I'll concede/watch it...

TKD does serious work, Yui as well from what I've heard. Then there's Marth... Ally did not use MK against Mr R, from what I hear he was scared. And Olimar; Japan again.

The comments were one in the same... By definition flossing (ftw) has Eldin legal...

Oh, you mean all stages, not just legal ones. Yeah, you're nuts.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Full List Stage Striking, yes, I mean all the stages.

 

[Ghostbone]

It's like the only region that has an MK problem is NY/NJ, and that's where all the best players are. Weird.

You know, it's not like MK just becomes better and better as players improve, nah that can't be it, top players all just decided to main MK by chance, not because he's so much better than everyone else.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I honestly don't think there is any way to prove one side wrong or right when it comes to these region debates. There are way too many variables to take into account.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

You know, it's not like MK just becomes better and better as players improve, nah that can't be it, top players all just decided to main MK by chance, not because he's so much better than everyone else.

Just because all of the best players in the country use a character does not make that character broken. We know for a fact that all of these players are top players. Even without MK, ally is still placing top 8 in singles and wrecking **** in teams, and Anti and Nairo are still going great in teams–not as great as with MK, but then again these guys just lost their main, and expecting them to do just as well with secondaries is kind of ridiculous.

 

[Orion*]

>_>

C'mon, Kid. Really?

I'mma laugh when Brawl devolves into the same damn characters placing in the same damn spots over and over again.

Edit: John. It hasn't even been a year yet. Simmer down.

Smooth Criminal

This

Game will not last as long as melee probably... : |

 

[C.J.]

Jebus you're looking at pokemon COMPLETELY backwards. Uber tier didn't get banned. Pokemon that got banned got put into Uber tier.

 

[Orion*]

Jebus you're looking at pokemon COMPLETELY backwards. Uber tier didn't get banned. Pokemon that got banned got put into Uber tier.

Johns.

10char

 

[Sorto]

You know, it's not like MK just becomes better and better as players improve, nah that can't be it, top players all just decided to main MK by chance, not because he's so much better than everyone else.

No one is saying mk is not the best.

Antiban is saying that being the best character is NOT EQUAL to being a broken character. This is completely true.

Other fighters have had a single uncontested best character before. And yes, the best players will play that character often.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't see why anti-ban hasn't figured out why the definition of "broken" is just semantic nonsense. It doesn't really matter. The ban is already more or less under way and the decision has already been made. It is reasonable to say that the majority of the American Brawl-playing community wished for Meta Knight to be banned. Since we don't serve anyone but ourselves (read this sentence several times) that's really the only thing that actually matters.

If you don't agree that most of the community wanted to ban him, then you can simply hold tournaments with rules that allow him (or rather, don't disallow him). If you're right then your tournaments will thrive and said scene will flourish. If you're wrong and your tournaments don't do as well as the MK-banned ones down the way, then you'll have to ask yourself what right your minority has to demand that we play the game in a way we don't want to.

The last sentence is extremely important, because right now anti-ban's feelings are that they have some kind of moral or logical superiority when in fact no such things exist. Our scene isn't recognized by Nintendo, doesn't have any sponsors, uses rules we largely just made up for our convenience, and is entirely grassroots. Our decisions only affect our enjoyment of the game and nothing more.

If you're still here arguing about it instead of mobilizing or simply choosing involving yourself in a local or regional anti-ban tournament series, then I have to ask if it isn't because you know that such a thing wouldn't be successful, because it isn't what people want. Some of you seem to think what we want doesn't matter, but really, it's the only thing that does.

 

[Sorto]

SMFP made me think this.
So just putting this out there. No true official rules exist. So thus MK is NOT OFFICIALLY BANNED. URC just RECOMMENDS you ban him

 

[Jimmyfosho]

He's banned in the urc ruleset alone. (after apex)
But the URC ruleset is pretty much the standard in USA/Canada. People can always go against the standard though.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Except for the part where A and B Tier still place in the money in Melee tournies, while OU virtually has no chance of winning matches against Ubers...

What are you talking about? Pokemon like Skarmory, Heatran, Ferrathorn, Blissey and more can still compete in Ubers.

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think comparing Pokémon tiering to Smash tiering is going to be very effective. Yes, there are a few Pokémon in OU that are useful on an Ubers team. No, a team made up entirely of OU will not make it far in Ubers. However, this doesn't really have any parallels to Smash, which involve you selecting a character and using it for the entirety of a game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't think comparing Pokémon tiering to Smash tiering is going to be very effective. Yes, there are a few Pokémon in OU that are useful on an Ubers team. No, a team made up entirely of OU will not make it far in Ubers. However, this doesn't really have any parallels to Smash, which involve you selecting a character and using it for the entirety of a game.

This is true, I was only using Pokemon as an example of Banning the entire Tier instead of one just one character. I don't think Brawl's S tier is any more broken than Melee's S tier.

 

[Battousai780]

I don't see why anti-ban hasn't figured out why the definition of "broken" is just semantic nonsense. It doesn't really matter. The ban is already more or less under way and the decision has already been made. It is reasonable to say that the majority of the American Brawl-playing community wished for Meta Knight to be banned. Since we don't serve anyone but ourselves (read this sentence several times) that's really the only thing that actually matters.

If you don't agree that most of the community wanted to ban him, then you can simply hold tournaments with rules that allow him (or rather, don't disallow him). If you're right then your tournaments will thrive and said scene will flourish. If you're wrong and your tournaments don't do as well as the MK-banned ones down the way, then you'll have to ask yourself what right your minority has to demand that we play the game in a way we don't want to.

The last sentence is extremely important, because right now anti-ban's feelings are that they have some kind of moral or logical superiority when in fact no such things exist. Our scene isn't recognized by Nintendo, doesn't have any sponsors, uses rules we largely just made up for our convenience, and is entirely grassroots. Our decisions only affect our enjoyment of the game and nothing more.

If you're still here arguing about it instead of mobilizing or simply choosing involving yourself in a local or regional anti-ban tournament series, then I have to ask if it isn't because you know that such a thing wouldn't be successful, because it isn't what people want. Some of you seem to think what we want doesn't matter, but really, it's the only thing that does.

I was unaware that opinions of the newb majority should dictate how people who actually play competitively should be affected. If "broken" is not criteria to ban a character and it boils down to the majority's preference, this game is a joke. If everyone decided to ban Ness because he was too small and hard to hit, making him not fun to play against, we shouldn't just cave in and do it. I'm sorry, but being salty because better players beat you with MK is not criteria for banning him. I can't just rally people to ban Diddy because I think his bananas are gay or DDD cause chaingrabs make me mad.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I was unaware that opinions of the newb majority should dictate how people who actually play competitively should be affected. If "broken" is not criteria to ban a character and it boils down to the majority's preference, this game is a joke. If everyone decided to ban Ness because he was too small and hard to hit, making him not fun to play against, we shouldn't just cave in and do it. I'm sorry, but being salty because better players beat you with MK is not criteria for banning him. I can't just rally people to ban Diddy because I think his bananas are gay or DDD cause chaingrabs make me mad.

The hope (and reality, actually) is that no one would ever en masse vote to ban Ness or Dedede chaingrabs because enough people know those things aren't broken, overcentralizing, or annoying enough to even warrant a vote. In short, those are not things that are actually happening and we aren't even discussing.

I'm not really impressed by hypothetical situations that are worlds away from ever occuring. A supermajority of players from ever level were for the ban. A supermajority of players from the top 100 (not scrubs) were for the ban. The "only bad players wanted him banned" thing has been done to death and it's wrong. There's tons of stuff in this game players of all levels acknowledge unanimously as being really lame/gay/broken/whatever and we'd probably never think of banning those things.

Meta Knight's legality was contentious enough that it was brought to a public and private vote no less than 5 times (possibly more behind the scenes, I'm not privy to that information); no other single issue is anywhere near that contentious so please don't insult my intelligence.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The hope (and reality, actually) is that no one would ever en masse vote to ban Ness or Dedede chaingrabs because enough people know those things aren't broken, overcentralizing, or annoying enough to even warrant a vote. In short, those are not things that are actually happening and we aren't even discussing.

I'm not really impressed by hypothetical situations that are worlds away from ever occuring. A supermajority of players from ever level were for the ban. A supermajority of players from the top 100 (not scrubs) were for the ban. The "only bad players wanted him banned" thing has been done to death and it's wrong.

Meta Knight's legality was contentious enough that it was brought to a public and private vote no less than 5 times (possibly more behind the scenes, I'm not privy to that information); no other single issue is anywhere near that contentious so please don't insult my intelligence.

But there are a lot of other things we can vote on that we don't get the option to vote on (like stages and timers)

 

[Tesh]

You could try, but the majority of the community wouldn't agree with you. Look at alot of the stages we have banned. I'm actually salty that anti-ban is all about "but its not 100% broken and ur voting on preference" about MK, but look at Pirate Ship, Green Greens, YI:M, Japes. Those stages are all obviously less "broken" than MK but they are banned. Why? Because most of the community probably just doesn't wanna there.

We don't want to test the skills MK requires in our tournaments, end of story.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You could try, but the majority of the community wouldn't agree with you. Look at alot of the stages we have banned. I'm actually salty that anti-ban is all about "but its not 100% broken and ur voting on preference" about MK, but look at Pirate Ship, Green Greens, YI:M, Japes. Those stages are all obviously less "broken" than MK but they are banned. Why? Because most of the community probably just doesn't wanna there.

We don't want to test the skills MK requires in our tournaments, end of story.

Papero wrote at 11:07 AM on Jul 28, 2011 :
MK Banned
Brinstar:
90 Keep
119 Ban
Rainbow Cruise:
87 Keep
120 Ban
2 Neutral
Pokemon Stadium 2:
70 Keep
136 Ban
3 Neutral
Delfino Plaza:
183 Keep
25 Ban
1 Neutral

MK not banned
Brinstar:
55 Keep
152 Ban
Rainbow Cruise:
59 Keep
146 Ban
2 Neutral
Pokemon Stadium 2:
60 Keep
143 Ban
4 Neutral
Delfino Plaza:
180 Keep
26 Ban
1 Neutral

This is probably off by some amount, with all the keep mk only votes, ban mk only votes, unclear votes, fake votes, etc.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

But there are a lot of other things we can vote on that we don't get the option to vote on (like stages and timers)

In that case, consider yourself lucky we were able to vote at all.



Or don't, and start your own tournament scene with MK legal. Yelling at us isn't going to do anything, especially given that you have an IQ of less than 50 and no one wants to listen to you talk, especially not me.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Us? Your not in the URC

 

[Juushichi]

He also used his MK once that I could see in top-8. Once. And that was when Infern counterpicked him to Brinstar. So okay, let's call it one and a half MKs in top 8, and half an MK in top 3. Your point?



Uh... Yeah. Notice how a lot of MW tournaments tend to be like that?

I wasn't making a point. Only correcting the thought that Shugo isn't as much of an MK main as any one else. He can definitely **** people with Falco and does get scared into using MK if he has too much of a problem. (see: vs Fizzle @ SiiS4 [which resulted in a L] and I think vs TO Joe at KTAR...).

MW tournaments tend to have character diversity because people enjoy playing not-MK for some reason. A lot of our higher level players do have an MK (for instance, at every recent tournament I remember being at Y.b.M., Infern, Tako and others do MK dittos just kinda for the hell of it) where-as our mid-level players (Kassy, most of MI, ShadowPheonix and others) do play them.

I'm not trying to prove a point either way, but just giving information since no one really knows about the MW because we're considered really bad.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Us? Your not in the URC

>_> The pro-banners, Jebus. That's what he means by "us."

Smooth Criminal

 

[John12346]

Real talk, maybe some other controversial rules should be put to a vote, you know?

But you would need to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that whatever change you're pushing for is worth being put under scrutiny. Take the MK ban for example. There was tons of research, dedication, and debate put behind this one topic. We all put our backs into it to bring it to the point that we did, and that's likely what prompted the vote.

I think the issue is that any other proposed rule change just doesn't come close to the severity or controversiality of the MK ban, so it's not likely anything else will actually need to be taken to a public vote.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

>_> The pro-banners, Jebus. That's what he means by "us."

Smooth Criminal

Pro bans didn't put up the poll or make the final decision