Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Ih8u

 

[Chuee]

I think youre forgetting a few.
theres actually 2 falco, Dehf and shugo
3 diddys, felix
youre also forgeting:
the 2 ikes
the at least 2 sonics
the 3 DKs
the 3 foxes
coneys ddd
the two lucarios
the luigi
the 1 or 2 lucases
the 2 nesses
the pikachu
2 or 3 shieks.
the toon link
the 2 wolfs
and like 2 or 3 yoshis.

Im pretty sure thats more top level players and top level characters than europe and japan put together.

uh.........I think by top level, BPC means players that could place top 8 in a national sized tourney.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I forgot to answer this but I did a search just so that I could refute this:

Top level players are just top level players because they have more skill than other players, also I think the bar is just set by top level players. Therefore the bar is set by more skill than other players. And since the bar is the sum of the bar set by the top players the bar in itself has more skill than any individual top player and arguably as much as all of them together. Therefore it is important to remember that the bar sets the bar just as much the top level players. Therefore you are wrong.

I was also talking about character specific top level players. You also can not have player skill without a player. the bar does not set the bar, the players set the bar

 

[Cassio]

A huge part of banning MK is so that no player becomes as dominating as M2K was with him. If someone else dominated in the same way that would defeat the purpose of the ban.

Anywho, the point is no one has ever been as dominant as m2k, not even other amazing metaknights. That isnt speculation. Why he was that dominant may be, but I dont really expect most people to disagree that it was some combination of those very possible reasons.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I was also talking about character specific top level players. You also can not have player skill without a player. the bar does not set the bar, the players set the bar

Yes, but please, surely can see that specificity does not necessarily imply skill, this can be proven by a fact such as that Peach is a crappy character; furthermore, skill while skill can be broken down into a specific set of actions, thereby making the player an arbitrary component of the concept which extentended over the course of a best out of 7 set might be more accurately refered to as a phenomenon (but not in a mere best out of 3 set, because that's too short); nonetheless, we cannot simply ignore the fact that Sonic is a very gay character.

Also frame data.

 

[Judo777]

uh.........I think by top level, BPC means players that could place top 8 in a national sized tourney.

I might be over thinking this but...... at a National sized tourney shouldn't there ideally be only about 16-20 people that can place top 8? There can only be 8 best players in top 8 lol

Like if Ally, M2K, ADHD, Dabuz, TKD, Tyrant, DEHF, Mikehaze, Atomske all went to a tournament and then you had one person slightly below them (idk not tryin to name drop) Coney showed up (where nothing against Coney he is amazing) I don't think he would have a great shot outplacing the 8 above I named (partly due to the fact that bar haze their characters all wreck him). Does that mean hes not top level since he prob couldn't outplace those 8?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

But.......no.......wait.
You're telling us that because we can't win vs MK, were scrubs because we can't?

No, I'm telling you that you're scrubs when you ***** and moan about it instead of either getting better or changing your character or just accepting it.

I think youre forgetting a few.
theres actually 2 falco, Dehf and shugo

So Shugo is reasonably on the same level as Ally, M2K, Anti, DEHF, ADHD, and Dabuz?

3 diddys, felix

So Felix is reasonably on the same level as Ally, M2K, Anti, DEHF, ADHD, and Dabuz?

youre also forgeting:
the 2 ikes
the at least 2 sonics
the luigi
the 1 or 2 lucases
the 2 nesses
2 or 3 shieks.
the toon link
the 2 wolfs
and like 2 or 3 yoshis.

Even if any of them is on the same level as the aforementioned players, they're made irrelevant by the fact that they main a character who is somewhere between mediocre and garbage.

the 3 DKs

So any of these other than Will is reasonably on the same level as Ally, M2K, Anti, DEHF, ADHD, and Dabuz?

the 3 foxes

I count one Fox who is on that level. Not 3. The other two may be damn good players, but they are not at the top.

coneys ddd
the two lucarios
the pikachu

These I'll give you.

Im pretty sure thats more top level players and top level characters than europe and japan put together.

Yes... Except that most of them are made irrelevant through their character choice (the same way a really, really good Dan main is irrelevant in SF4 or a really good Pichu or Kirby is irrelevant in Melee. They may place very well at regionals, or very rarely make a good showing at a major national, but they, for all intents and purposes, do not matter for this discussion because their characters suck. Then you went on to list a whole bunch of players who are simply not on the level of players like M2K and Ally, and then like 4 who may well be, one of which is retired/retiring not sure.

 

[Eddie G]

Don't rank Dabuz THAT high just yet, spitfire.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

According to BPC, we need to know everything about every character,ban two additional stages, increase the timer by 2 minutes, ban smashville, and perform mass ****ing seppuku before banning Meta Knight.

But in all seriousness, BPC, when you figure out why demanding that we find a meta knight counter before banning him is unreasonable and illogical.. wait, I'll just tell you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning

As for Salem, his ZSS is obviously very good, but he has only been to one tournament and almost every ZSS player up to this point has introduced new elements to the character, excited people, and then reached their 16th minute. How about waiting until he places high consistently for a few months before using him as evidence that we're all just stupid scrubs, please?

 

[Eddie G]

Meh, I don't care what he thinks on the subject anymore. He has ridiculously impossible standards on top of not even living here. Convincing him doesn't matter anyway, the reality is apparent...the ban is happening. Whiners and moaners we may be, but ultimately getting what is desired are we.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Meh, I don't care what he thinks on the subject anymore. He has ridiculously impossible standards on top of not even living here. Convincing him doesn't matter anyway, the reality is apparent...the ban is happening. Whiners and moaners we may be, but ultimately getting what is desired are we.

Get wrecked

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think youre forgetting a few.
theres actually 2 falco, Dehf and shugo
3 diddys, felix
youre also forgeting:
the 2 ikes
the at least 2 sonics
the 3 DKs
the 3 foxes
coneys ddd
the two lucarios
the luigi
the 1 or 2 lucases
the 2 nesses
the pikachu
2 or 3 shieks.
the toon link
the 2 wolfs
and like 2 or 3 yoshis.

Would atleast like to fix that only 2 Yoshi's are doing notably good at nationals.
The rest of us are kinda doing mediocre while the newer Yoshi's coming in are doing decent at first but then doing bad the next tournament or two.

 

[_Kain_]

LOL at M2K being the only reigning player.

Pretty sure it was Ally around APEX, then it shifted to M2K during Genesis, EVO, MLGS, then back to Ally like Pound 4 or w/e it was when he started using MK alot, then back to M2K again.

I just don't like how anti ban makes arguements to suit their purpose its kinda funny, yet irritating at the same time

 

[Juushichi]

But Kain, doesn't everyone make arguments to serve their purposes?

Do you mean, makes up?

/winpaperclipstatus

 

[ShadowLink84]

No, what IS getting ridiculous is that your seeming intent with using examples like this one is to indicate that some characters might be able develop to the point that MK still wont **** their ***** if the players are on a high level and have matchup experience. This is ridiculous because, theorycrafting being unreliable and all, it's still unlikely to the point that it doesn't come near to functioning as an argument.

Furthermore, youre examples from street fighter and other games simply don't apply, you are ignoring the extent of MK's ability to dominate. Sure I don't get to ***** about DDD because I picked DK, but I think it's within reason to feel a little bit frustrated when you're gonna get **** on for picking any other character than MK, sure this isn't the case in europe, but that is irrelevant because this concerns the american metagame in which your possible metaknight counters are just not that. I dig how you even wrote that aren't obviously stomped on to clarify what a counter means when talking about MK; nonetheless, it would've been more accurate to just leave out the word counter altogether.

But this **** is all because you project your own ideals onto the community. You mention that people still lose to crap characters now and then due to matchup experience, hmm could have this have something to do with metaknight having dominated the scene? In an ideal world we might have people being able to manage everything at once; however, after 4 years it's quite clear that this isn't going to happen. Indeed I think it is perfectly within reason to assume it likely that the banning of metaknight can be very good for the metagame because several characters see a big rise in viability with him banned. This in turn might then force other people to increase their knowledge of the game and learn new matchups, something they might actually be able to do now that they don't have to focus on beating ****ing metaknight.

BPC should press charges for this horrific, verbal beating he has suffered.
Presuming of course they didn't give Hippie a medal instead.

 

[_Kain_]

But Kain, doesn't everyone make arguments to serve their purposes?

Do you mean, makes up?

/winpaperclipstatus

Yeah I worded that wrong

/nosleepmakesmelookstupid

I just think it's kinda of foolish to think he's the only one that practices that much. Like...people HAVE to practice the MK MU cause it's the most dominate force in tournaments. Saying people are ill prepared or don't practice as much or as good is a matter of opinion. You don't watch or live with the person, therefore you can't really judge on that.

Assuming everyone is a scrub is kinda dumb . I also want to know what these better chars are against MK though. One point or another I've seen them all get destroyed by an MK who knows the MU or lose (Yes there are MK's who are better at MU's then others. TKD usually beats Tyrant, but then Anti beat TKD. Same with M2K losing to Dabuz, then Dabuz losing to Tearbear)

 

[Juushichi]

I completely agree with that. I mean, there's no MK as dominant historically as M2K but there are loads of them with proficiencies in various other matches.

Just like how MK's hold down other matchups, I kinda believe that the best MK's might also keep down weaker MK's that excel at other MU's.

But that last paragraph is completely conjecture.

 

[pwiito]

Da kid just needs to learn how to stfu sometimes .

 

[Juushichi]

Pwii, your avatar is too moe for me.

 

[Kuro~]

What?????? Nakat and trevonte are def. ****ing top. wth...

 

[tekkie]

Just like how MK's hold down other matchups, I kinda believe that the best MK's might also keep down weaker MK's that excel at other MU's.

the ongoing history of brawl on a national level seems to be something like

-MK ***** everyone
-snake (ally) shows up and ***** everyone
-months later, MK back to ****** everyone, snake basically made unviable

then the cycle kinda continued

-MK ***** everyone
-diddy (ADHD) shows up and ***** everyone
-months later, MK back to ****** everyone, diddy basically made unviable

also happened with olimar (brood/RB) lol

 

[C.J.]

What?????? Nakat and trevonte are def. ****ing top. wth...

...Just no. They're on the higher end of super high level play. But they are NOT the same level as Tyrant, M2K, Ally, DEHF, Gnes, Razer, etc.

 

[Orion*]

Theorycraft is a terrible way of establishing character ability in real matches.

-****ing floored-

not to add another **** in your *** but jesus. never thought I would see the day this was posted by you LMAO. plz apply this argument next you talk about stages also, muchas gracias.

You don't see MK's playing like that much because yes a lot of them are "honorable" at certain timing out stuff (

I don't even think it's honor. More like incompetence. It's not That easy to just scrooge because while it's extremely gay, small technical error = stock. Unless they are 100% percent confident, technical and proficient with their character on and more importantly offstage, along with having a solid gimp game to make the risk reward in their favor, I think that zoning properly with MK is more realistic and Consistent to get wins.

M2K being the only person on a completely different level with his character. TKD immediately comes to mind.

I do think there are like maybe... 5? rofl
M2K
TKD
Esam on a technical level is although I think he can still get better, and be more consistent than he is.
ADHD used to be.
maybe nietono or 9b?
lol.

MK is banned after Apex, there is no reason to talk about this :3

/thread

*trollface*

In b4 people learn to beat olimar then you start *****ing or probably quit a year from now
LOOOL

Personally, I find this the be incredibly disingenuous and highly disrespectful to people like fatal, and razer, coney, shugo, kain, will, espy, san, and plenty others.

I've played most of those people... and beaten a bunch. They aren't on M2Ks level, I'm sorry. There are people that arguably can be, but none of the people you named

MK is 2.5x more popular than the 2nd most popular.

that seems kinda ridiculous to me. pretty sure no other fighting game character comes close to that.

there's like 40 chars, so that's not that much % wise in comparison to the cast though : |. It's all numbers and how you interpret it, you just seem to choose to show them in a way that... well fits your argument. nothing wrong with that but pointing it out.

Oh come on, MK isn't that broken. He would lose to someone like Ike due to the accuracy of his Fair when MK in in the air. And, he is easily edgehogged.

LOL

Tell me what I could have done here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmQGt7wRmvU#t=1m54s

After the jab you faired/floated the opposite direction from MK, making you lose stage control and putting you into a worse position (the ledge)

You powershielded the dash attack misjudged the PS, after you wiffed the jab I think the best option would have been to just roll torwards the center of the stage immediately (her rolls arent great but it would have worked very easily). Since havok missed he was put in a awkward scenario where he has to try and react, but trying to pressure metaknight from that particular spacing is hard for peach, but being the safest option with no punish bar MK completely committing and being extremely punishable himself, it would have netted you stage control.

If havoks roll was a habit and not a reaction it would have been easy to grab on reaction, MKs back roll isnt to fast and you're already in shield at the proper spacing. If it wasn't you still have control of the pace of the match.

You di'd the dsmash ****ing weird I don't even think I would have wanted to ground tech that ****, but on your wake up you should have just stood up, or wait stand up/getup for mixups. Rolling into MK makes it easy for him to cover your options especially from that range. If you got up he would have had to walk forward some, to maybe tilt you (he could go for a dash grab but that's pretty committed and not as reliable without an extremely good reaction). I knew this from experience but just taking a 2 second look at peach frame data you can also tell that those where your best options...............


Get-up Roll Forward
Duration: 34
Invincibility: 1-19

Get-up Roll Backward
Duration: 35
Invincibility: 1-19

Get-up Stand
Duration: 29
Invincibility: 1-19

Get-up Attack
Duration: 55
Hits on Frames: 17, 25
Invincibility: 1-27

here they are incase you're to lazy.

After the Dsmash you should have just dropped and gone to the ledge, it's a worse position but that's what you get when you make a mistake. Instead you picked a greedy option and decided to jump back on stage with fair, which at that angle is pretty easy for MK to option cover since peaches mixups from that position are marginal at best....

Second time you land you also just went onstage with a fair, so at this point it's just a bad habit. If you think you can get away with it sure but doing it twice in a row is bad... He didnt punish you thankfully but it's not that great of a position and you made a poor decision of spot dodging and got dsmashed (not even in his grab range lol, and tornado would be a pretty stand move to apply there).

After you got dsmashed you tried to float back to the stage a 3rd time, but at least you realized it was a bad decision I think... probably because havok was already there waiting. You stopped floating, havok grabs the ledge and you make a smart decision to upB, however your spacing was off. You di'ed in torwards the stage to fast and upBed to soon. When you floated if you just dropped and didnt change your current spacing MK could not hit you with anything, and then once his invince frames are down and he's not flashing anymore you are free to upB. If havok decided to nair he gets either stage spiked (unlikely but it happened before LOL) or you get free stage control. If he's smart and just rolls on stage you are on the ledge, not the greatest position ever, but at least you have options outside of dying and more importantly mixups.

After the nair, and from the multiple mistakes made to put you in said position, you where kinda in a ****ty situation and no matter what you do here the risk reward is really skewed, but you still went for a pretty.... reactable? option. Even if Havok didn't react it requires like no spacing for him he can just upB and if he misses ledge guard you, lmao.

You're best option there would be to either wait and upB and a gay angle for the parasol you think he's trying to play the react game, and the best you can try and do is vary your fast fall and horizontal speeds. airdodging might have been possible, but with peaches frame data I wouldn't do it, he decided not to SL you would probably just die outright.

Then you have garbage DI on the shuttle loop.

In 15 minutes I wrote that for you derp, you weren't even option covered moreso than punished for bad (although well executed) decisions. Don't get me wrong you're a great player but don't act like you don't have room to improve or something, there where options available to you at times, and despite it being a hard counter MU, you might have been able to win.

#im not doing this for all of your vids btw

characters outside of high tier (especially Mid tier) actually CAN make a splash in the game.

I don't think this is true at all.

Fox gets destroyed on FD against ICs and against Jiggs on brinstar

Brinstar been banned in the US ***** LOL.

I would like to state that I actually have seen Fox beat Pikachus or Wolf beat DDDs, Warios, or Pikachus because these three mentioned characters do not carry the options nor a broken ruleset that caters to them.

I've seen sonics, peaches, ect beat MKs....

Pound 5 was like a year ago.

LOL

Brinstar is not a legal stage in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Fox vs. IC's on FD is evenish or 45-55, but even then the match-up is still in Fox's favor if you take into account every stage, so it's a moot point.

/loves your posts

MK must be the balanced brawl edition of MK

less OP tornado, F-smash and D-smash nerf, and shuttle loop gimp hitbox weakened plus higher angle

SL gimp isn't even that gay if you DI it right most of the time. Knock back should be nerfed definitely, but there's no angle problems... Dsmash isnt that gay either. Tornado is vs certain characters, it depends. You main DK tho so w/e

...So you're a scrub

Please dont start that... you will embarass yourself and then i will have to write another essay.

I like how my point on fox CAN be CP by ICS on FD or jiggs on brinstar isn't valid because no one plays ICs

I like how you pretend to know about melee. LMAO

snake beats diddy. pretty sure that isn't being debated by people.

I know a lot of good players that think it's even or even possibly +1 diddys advantage though... Either way it's not holding the character back.

Hey it's that move that you didn't understand how the hitbox worked a few months ago LMAO

Naw you guys will get tired of seeing dabuz in grand finals

-died-

uh.........I think by top level, BPC means players that could place top 8 in a national sized tourney.

this

Don't rank Dabuz THAT high just yet, spitfire.

/we out

 

[da K.I.D.]

So Shugo is reasonably on the same level as Ally, M2K, Anti, DEHF, ADHD, and Dabuz?

Shugo has beaten ally before so I would say yes.

So Felix is reasonably on the same level as Ally, M2K, Anti, DEHF, ADHD, and Dabuz?

Felix is on the other side of the country from me so I dont here about him as much as I would like, but last I heard, hes definitely just as good as gnes and adhd.

So any of these other than Will is reasonably on the same level as Ally, M2K, Anti, DEHF, ADHD, and Dabuz?

Cable is definitely on the same level as will.
and Dr. G, while inactive at times regularly out places will at events and has beaten plenty of high to top level players.

I count one Fox who is on that level. Not 3. The other two may be damn good players, but they are not at the top.

So nakat and trevonte can beat tyrant, but theyre not top level players?

Yes... Except that most of them are made irrelevant through their character choice (the same way a really, really good Dan main is irrelevant in SF4 or a really good Pichu or Kirby is irrelevant in Melee. They may place very well at regionals, or very rarely make a good showing at a major national, but they, for all intents and purposes, do not matter for this discussion because their characters suck. Then you went on to list a whole bunch of players who are simply not on the level of players like M2K and Ally, and then like 4 who may well be, one of which is retired/retiring not sure.

This conflicts with youre earlier stance that if we just work really hard and become perfect players we dont know which character may turn out to be the MK counter.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

KID, don't have time for the rest of your post, but this I really have to address. Can you tell the difference between a solid character and a garbage character? Here, let me help you out.

Snake is a solid character. Olimar is a solid character. ZSS, Pikachu, and Diddy Kong are all solid characters.

Luigi is a garbage character. Mario is a garbage character. Sonic is a garbage character. Ike is borderline garbage. Lucas is a garbage character.

 

[DMG]

Everyone looks garbage next to MK

 

[z00ted]

After the jab you faired/floated the opposite direction from MK, making you lose stage control and putting you into a worse position (the ledge)

You powershielded the dash attack misjudged the PS, after you wiffed the jab I think the best option would have been to just roll torwards the center of the stage immediately (her rolls arent great but it would have worked very easily). Since havok missed he was put in a awkward scenario where he has to try and react, but trying to pressure metaknight from that particular spacing is hard for peach, but being the safest option with no punish bar MK completely committing and being extremely punishable himself, it would have netted you stage control.

If havoks roll was a habit and not a reaction it would have been easy to grab on reaction, MKs back roll isnt to fast and you're already in shield at the proper spacing. If it wasn't you still have control of the pace of the match.

You di'd the dsmash ****ing weird I don't even think I would have wanted to ground tech that ****, but on your wake up you should have just stood up, or wait stand up/getup for mixups. Rolling into MK makes it easy for him to cover your options especially from that range. If you got up he would have had to walk forward some, to maybe tilt you (he could go for a dash grab but that's pretty committed and not as reliable without an extremely good reaction). I knew this from experience but just taking a 2 second look at peach frame data you can also tell that those where your best options...............


Get-up Roll Forward
Duration: 34
Invincibility: 1-19

Get-up Roll Backward
Duration: 35
Invincibility: 1-19

Get-up Stand
Duration: 29
Invincibility: 1-19

Get-up Attack
Duration: 55
Hits on Frames: 17, 25
Invincibility: 1-27

here they are incase you're to lazy.

After the Dsmash you should have just dropped and gone to the ledge, it's a worse position but that's what you get when you make a mistake. Instead you picked a greedy option and decided to jump back on stage with fair, which at that angle is pretty easy for MK to option cover since peaches mixups from that position are marginal at best....

Second time you land you also just went onstage with a fair, so at this point it's just a bad habit. If you think you can get away with it sure but doing it twice in a row is bad... He didnt punish you thankfully but it's not that great of a position and you made a poor decision of spot dodging and got dsmashed (not even in his grab range lol, and tornado would be a pretty stand move to apply there).

After you got dsmashed you tried to float back to the stage a 3rd time, but at least you realized it was a bad decision I think... probably because havok was already there waiting. You stopped floating, havok grabs the ledge and you make a smart decision to upB, however your spacing was off. You di'ed in torwards the stage to fast and upBed to soon. When you floated if you just dropped and didnt change your current spacing MK could not hit you with anything, and then once his invince frames are down and he's not flashing anymore you are free to upB. If havok decided to nair he gets either stage spiked (unlikely but it happened before LOL) or you get free stage control. If he's smart and just rolls on stage you are on the ledge, not the greatest position ever, but at least you have options outside of dying and more importantly mixups.

After the nair, and from the multiple mistakes made to put you in said position, you where kinda in a ****ty situation and no matter what you do here the risk reward is really skewed, but you still went for a pretty.... reactable? option. Even if Havok didn't react it requires like no spacing for him he can just upB and if he misses ledge guard you, lmao.

You're best option there would be to either wait and upB and a gay angle for the parasol you think he's trying to play the react game, and the best you can try and do is vary your fast fall and horizontal speeds. airdodging might have been possible, but with peaches frame data I wouldn't do it, he decided not to SL you would probably just die outright.

Then you have garbage DI on the shuttle loop.

In 15 minutes I wrote that for you derp, you weren't even option covered moreso than punished for bad (although well executed) decisions. Don't get me wrong you're a great player but don't act like you don't have room to improve or something, there where options available to you at times, and despite it being a hard counter MU, you might have been able to win.

#im not doing this for all of your vids btw

To solve the problem, I just shouldn't have gone to the ledge.

I know what my mistakes are, but you're telling me my best option was to just standup or do a getup attack? He could have just shielded -> ftilted me or grabbed EASILY (I'm not that far away). When it comes to the fair habit onstage at least the 2nd fair was actually really good. It went unpunished, allowed for me to spotdodge his d-tilt, and then I tried to input a jab but the down-smash beat it (so I literally had no other options).

The parasol was properly spaced. Peach's parasol can't beat Metaknights nair unless the Metaknight is not nairing correctly.

I used the Peach bomb as a mixup, but now I guess I know I should rather be taking damage instead of dying at a stupid percentage.

Thanks for the help though.

 

[Cassio]

lol. Kid, Kain no one is saying those players arent good, no offense but yall crazy saying shugo and ally are on the same level, or implying ally's success has rivaled M2Ks. If thats not what youre trying to say, then none of that really affects the point thats being made.

 

[Eddie G]

To be fair, most of M2K's Brawl dominance stems from a period where a lot of people still didn't know how to play the damn game while he was lightyears ahead of anyone, including the other MKs. Ally's "success" for this game, over the long run, easily rivals M2K's.

 

[Orion*]

KID, don't have time for the rest of your post, but this I really have to address. Can you tell the difference between a solid character and a garbage character? Here, let me help you out.

Snake is a solid character. Olimar is a solid character. ZSS, Pikachu, and Diddy Kong are all solid characters.

Luigi is a garbage character. Mario is a garbage character. Sonic is a garbage character. Ike is borderline garbage. Lucas is a garbage character.

To solve the problem, I just shouldn't have gone to the ledge.

I know what my mistakes are, but you're telling me my best option was to just standup or do a getup attack? He could have just shielded -> ftilted me or grabbed EASILY (I'm not that far away). When it comes to the fair habit onstage at least the 2nd fair was actually really good. It went unpunished, allowed for me to spotdodge his d-tilt, and then I tried to input a jab but the down-smash beat it (so I literally had no other options).

The parasol was properly spaced. Peach's parasol can't beat Metaknights nair unless the Metaknight is not nairing correctly.

I used the Peach bomb as a mixup, but now I guess I know I should rather be taking damage instead of dying at a stupid percentage.

Thanks for the help though.

Ftilt isnt as gay of a punish and it would have allowed you to even have a chance to sdi out, and grabbing is requires a much more solid reaction that standing in place and doing something. You're in a bad situation, so it's not like you're supposed to have great option, I just think those are the two that will likely net you the least punishment, because rolling literally will "give" him the tech chase.

Parasol definitely doesnt beat non invince nair from the top O_____o....

Honestly the second fair probably would have worked if you spaced it so you landed as close as possible to the ledge, because it forces havok to really commit more spacing wise than he was... I still don't think the fair was the best option though because it forced you to make/go for a hard read from a bad position. Going the ledge isn't great, you have more time to pick solid safe option, and there's less immediate pressure. Also peaches option in that situation are kinda limited, and since her air movement is obvious bar float it gives him time to relax and take his time.

Just my op though, you're the peach main. I'm just saying from someone that just likes to play autopilot what's harder to cover. In a match it's always different.

 

[Orion*]

To be fair, most of M2K's Brawl dominance stems from a period where a lot of people still didn't know how to play the damn game while he was lightyears ahead of anyone, including the other MKs. Ally's "success" for this game, over the long run, easily rivals M2K's.

M2K also has success in melee tho.
/inb4mutepoint

but really, m2ks consistency and character knowledge is better than allys. Allys experience and natural smartness is broken mind you, but m2ks still won more times even more recently in mk dittos iirc than ally has won vs him, and jasons overall level of consistency is better imo.

 

[Eddie G]

I'll take your word for it. I don't know a lot of their accomplishments or personal records in detail, but what you said is sensible enough lol.

 

[Cassio]

In that context "success" doesnt mean it the way I meant it. But yeah if you interpret if you include things like "being good with multiple characters" or something like that then its possible to say ally has rivaled m2k.

/super ninjad

@illmatic could be wrong here but I feel like if youre spot dodging MKs dtilt youve already lost the exchange. Even characters with amazing spot dodges dont seem to get away with that. I dont really know what peaches options are from that position though.

 

[Eddie G]

It's a brutal position to be in with Peach in the first place.

If he rolls back, dash grab/nado.

If he jumps, f-tilt on jump startup or nado, or shuttle loop if he's a bit closer.

If he spotdodges, punish with whatever.

If he keeps his shield up, free grab or more tilt/nado pressure.

It's one stacked game of chess in his favor, let me tell ya.

 

[da K.I.D.]

KID, don't have time for the rest of your post, but this I really have to address. Can you tell the difference between a solid character and a garbage character? Here, let me help you out.

Snake is a solid character. Olimar is a solid character. ZSS, Pikachu, and Diddy Kong are all solid characters.

Luigi is a garbage character. Mario is a garbage character. Sonic is a garbage character. Ike is borderline garbage. Lucas is a garbage character.

You dont know anything about sonic, and i know this because i personally destroyed you with him.

I can assume this concept goes for multiple characters.

Everyone looks garbage next to MK

this.

lol. Kid, Kain no one is saying those players arent good, no offense but yall crazy saying shugo and ally are on the same level, or implying ally's success has rivaled M2Ks. If thats not what youre trying to say, then none of that really affects the point thats being made.

I think everyones definition of levels are different then.

Personally I think theres a large number of people that are on the same 'level' as m2k and ally. Even though the 2 of them are better then everyone else, its not on some unattainable plane. Otherwise people wouldnt even be able to take games or stocks of of them. I watched Junebug beat m2k in a set. Is junebug better as a whole then m2k? no. but they are clearly on the same echelon.

 

[Orion*]

It's a brutal position to be in with Peach in the first place.

If he rolls back, dash grab/nado.

If he jumps, f-tilt on jump startup or nado, or shuttle loop if he's a bit closer.

If he spotdodges, punish with whatever.

If he keeps his shield up, free grab or more tilt/nado pressure.

It's one stacked game of chess in his favor, let me tell ya.

we know it's a gay MU already tho....
but you can still limit the amount of reads you are forced to make, lmao. thats why i said i think the ledge is better XD

 

[Eddie G]

BPC lost to KiD's Sonic? Come on man...I even beat him with my MK (on FD) and I don't even main him. Why are you losing to garbage characters dawg? You main MK.

 

[Cassio]

The reason I mentioned the spot dodge is bc iirc I saw it a few times in the match and imo thats where everything went bad in that one part. Just seems like a position youd want to consciously avoid. I know thats easier said than done and Im maybe preaching to the choir, but thinking about what led to that "spot dodge dtilt position" could be a good start. If thats the only available option after fair than thats something you should be conscious of when you fair.

I think everyones definition of levels are different then.

Personally I think theres a large number of people that are on the same 'level' as m2k and ally. Even though the 2 of them are better then everyone else, its not on some unattainable plane. Otherwise people wouldnt even be able to take games or stocks of of them. I watched Junebug beat m2k in a set. Is junebug better as a whole then m2k? no. but they are clearly on the same echelon.

I mean, I agree with you that we can put m2k and june, etc in the same category of "top player". I just think theres fairly visible greater distinctions even in that broad category.

Especially with m2k. Its not so much beating people, I think that can work to distinguish one from another but imo m2k has something even greater than that. His consistency. I think his consistency really sets him apart from everyone else, especially in this game.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Everyone looks garbage next to MK

Nah, not really.

You dont know anything about sonic, and i know this because i personally destroyed you with him.

Did we even play in singles? I thought it was just doubles, where I was stuck teaming with probably the second most free person at the tournament because someone told me he was good... Either way, does it matter? I lost to you. Boo hoo. Germany has a total sonic count of 1, and that one sonic is beyond free. I did not know the matchup. But you know what? Sonic is still a crappy character, who is far enough down the tier list that players who are geniunely amazing losing with him is not a big deal–he's just got some ****ty matchups, some real weaknesses as a character. It doesn't matter if I'm good at fighting him; what matters for this argument is that he is either partially or completely unviable as a character. Just like most of the rest I mentioned.

BPC lost to KiD's Sonic? Come on man...I even beat him with my MK (on FD) and I don't even main him. Why are you losing to garbage characters dawg? You main MK.

I could john all day (hell, I'm not even sure we played 1v1), but I'll just say that I should've known the matchup better and didn't, and leave it at that.

 

[Life]

Giving BPC a little slack on the Sonic thing because Europe's Sonics are meh. But Dallas, man. (Okay, that was like a year ago, but still)

WTB good player fund to send Espy to Europe PST (not really, but he'd do damage)