Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Strong Badam]

I think you missed my post saying he can be CP.

if he bans FD, take him to brinstar

if he bans brinstar, take him to FD

Brinstar is not a legal stage in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

Fox vs. IC's on FD is evenish or 45-55, but even then the match-up is still in Fox's favor if you take into account every stage, so it's a moot point.

 

[Marc]

I may be bringing in other things, but we're discussing Metaknight, and his tournament dominance is outright ludicrous compared to Fox's. So, do you have anything to bring in against that?

My point has always been every character in the game besides Metaknight has a counter. It seems as if you're just nitpicking out my poor arguments and not reading everything I've said. Also.. if we fix the ruleset, Metaknight will still have no disadvantages anywhere. The recent Lone Star Championships just proved this, and so will Apex.

*shrug* My issue is that if we're arguing one thing you jump the subject to something else. If you feel I'm nitpicking poor arguments, don't make them. I feel like right now people think they need to spam arguments in hope some will stick to the wall, but this thread has so much misinformation and bias as a result that it's ridiculous.

Statements like "his tournament dominance is outright ludicrous" and "MK wins anywhere, any time, all the time" are so subjective they can't really be responded to. There is no data for character dominance for other fighting games to compare the limited data we have with, so there is no real way of telling how MK stacks up to periods of single character dominance in other fighting games. I don't think percentage X of prize money is ludicrous or too much and you think it is, that's literally the entire debate in a nutshell. Everything else is fluff and "evidence" after the verdict.

I also think MK is beatable, even if it's hard to get an actual advantage against him. In my opinion, top characters don't need to have disadvantages. Perhaps that's a difference in philosophy, but I don't think an RPS system is superior to one where you can't really counter the best character(s) in the game. Plenty of fighting games operate just fine like that, even if you want to treat Brawl as if it's special or exists in a vacuum. Furthermore, I'd have a hard time straight up counterpicking a character like Diddy too, especially when you consider that not every player plays 10 characters and MK isn't the only solo main with good placings.

 

[Conviction]

*fails to resist to point out the obvious*

Hey maybe if Fox isn't so dominant as you make him out to be and isn't really MK level domain, maybe your theory is just wrong to start out with.

*fades back*

 

[BlueXenon]

Just make special rules for MK matches and then everyone will be happy

 

[Ripple]

MK must be the balanced brawl edition of MK

less OP tornado, F-smash and D-smash nerf, and shuttle loop gimp hitbox weakened plus higher angle

 

[z00ted]

Statements like "his tournament dominance is outright ludicrous" and "MK wins anywhere, any time, all the time" are so subjective they can't really be responded to. There is no data for character dominance for other fighting games to compare the limited data we have with, so there is no real way of telling how MK stacks up to periods of single character dominance in other fighting games. I don't think percentage X of prize money is ludicrous or too much and you think it is, that's literally the entire debate in a nutshell. Everything else is fluff and "evidence" after the verdict.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Some people ARE willing to put up with Metaknight and ARE willing to deal with X amount of prize money won being perfectly acceptable. Hell, I used to hold this stance less then six months ago. The only problem that arises is the fact that the majority of the community also wants him removed. If two out of every three people in a community want to remove a character, and he's still legal... that doesn't sound like any type of community I would want to take a part of (if I was an outside player with no knowledge of the game). And over time, statistics have proven that it is only getting worse.

I also think MK is beatable, even if it's hard to get an actual advantage against him. In my opinion, top characters don't need to have disadvantages. Perhaps that's a difference in philosophy, but I don't think an RPS system is superior to one where you can't really counter the best character(s) in the game. Plenty of fighting games operate just fine like that, even if you want to treat Brawl as if it's special or exists in a vacuum. Furthermore, I'd have a hard time straight up counterpicking a character like Diddy too, especially when you consider that not every player plays 10 characters and MK isn't the only solo main with good placings.

Yes, I do want to treat Brawl as a special game or a vacuum.
Why would we base what we do in this game off of what other games decide in their metagame? It's completely illogical.

Brawl is special because it is offering us the opportunity to create a somewhat fair and balanced game. I have never seen a game in which so many characters have the opportunity to actually succeed in tournament (even with Metaknight legal). The evidence is right there in front of us, and we have all agreed upon it through matchup charts, tier lists, stage analysis, etc etc. Yet, certain people still feel the need to keep the upmost competitive spirit by keeping Metaknight in this game and destroying it.

I can't believe you just brought up how Diddy might have a hard time in being able to be countered with Metaknight gone .

 

[Gnes]

I'm done with this for the most part. All I can say is that some of your expectations for non MK characters and players are not only unrealistic but practically on an insulting level to their skill. I'll let the rest of you duke it out with bad arguments, irrelevant points, and a big load of "get better" piled on top impossible mountain where MK flocks because HE CAN FLYYYYYY.

I was thinking along the same thing.
It's really quite ridiculous, especially when most of the people arguing those expectations haven't even reached the top lvls of their own chrs.

Lmao @ not being able to counterpick diddy

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm glad you brought this up.

After putting three years into this game, why would I choose the option to deal with a character outright countering mine (and every other one in the game) by picking a character that I have absolutely no experience with... especially after I've already proven to do well against every other character besides the one I'm currently having a problem with?

If anything, that is the definition of discouraging the growth of Smash.
People can only put up with something for so long.

...So you're a scrub who picked a bad character with a horrible matchup against the most popular character in the game, and then found that the correct solution to the "problem" was not to either accept it or switch to a secondary, but rather to ***** and moan until the character is banned. For just a moment, think about what would happen in the analogue in the SF4 community*– a high-caliber Zangief complains that Sagat is broken, and doesn't wanna pick up a secondary for the matchup. He'd be laughed at. But this is okay. Because we're the smash community.

Fox gets destroyed on FD against ICs and against Jiggs on brinstar

The former is all but irrelevant because nobody plays ICs, Brinstar is pretty much banned.

 

[z00ted]

...So you're a scrub who picked a bad character with a horrible matchup against the most popular character in the game, and then found that the correct solution to the "problem" was not to either accept it or switch to a secondary, but rather to ***** and moan until the character is banned. For just a moment, think about what would happen in the analogue in the SF4 community*– a high-caliber Zangief complains that Sagat is broken, and doesn't wanna pick up a secondary for the matchup. He'd be laughed at. But this is okay. Because we're the smash community.

Shut the **** up.

 

[Spelt]

^ I lost.

 

[Ripple]

I like how my point on fox CAN be CP by ICS on FD or jiggs on brinstar isn't valid because no one plays ICs

 

[DMG]

Yeah SHUT THE **** UP ZANGIEF IS TOP TIER WHO THE **** YOU ****IN SCRUB CALLING HIM BAD

Holy **** do you even play street fighter like christ Zangief is top 3 wow you're bad

BPC: "Play anyone but MK and you're bad"

"Community ONLY plays MK? No problem bro"

 

[Marc]

Some people ARE willing to put up with Metaknight and ARE willing to deal with X amount of prize money won being perfectly acceptable. Hell, I used to hold this stance less then six months ago. The only problem that arises is the fact that the majority of the community also wants him removed. If two out of every three people in a community want to remove a character, and he's still legal... that doesn't sound like any type of community I would want to take a part of (if I was an outside player with no knowledge of the game). And over time, statistics have proven that it is only getting worse.

This seems overall reasonable. I'm not a believer in straight up majority rules, but no one can deny that the ban does get a lot of support. What I am curious about is if this will cause a rise in American attendance, that might be a better justification than anything else. Other than that I don't think Brawl is that special in terms of diversity and character spreads, but I suppose time will tell.

Lmao @ not being able to counterpick diddy

Enlighten me, which characters beat Diddy? And I don't mean some debatable evenish matchup, how do you counter Diddy?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Peach obv.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Shut the **** up.

It's true and you damn well know it. In any other community, you would be deemed a whiny scrub.

Yeah SHUT THE **** UP ZANGIEF IS TOP TIER WHO THE **** YOU ****IN SCRUB CALLING HIM BAD

Holy **** do you even play street fighter like christ Zangief is top 3 wow you're bad

One of the few things I know is that he loses pretty badly in vanilla to Akuma, Sagat, and Blanka.

BPC: "Play anyone but MK and you're bad"

"Community ONLY plays MK? No problem bro"

Where the **** did I say either of those things? Jesus ****, if I put a match near your feet, you would burn to the ground.

 

[Ripple]

Enlighten me, which characters beat Diddy? And I don't mean some debatable evenish matchup, how do you counter Diddy?

snake beats diddy. pretty sure that isn't being debated by people.

small advantage but he beats him

One of the few things I know is that he loses pretty badly in vanilla to Akuma, Sagat, and Blanka.

referencing vanilla

 

[Marc]

I like how my point on fox CAN be CP by ICS on FD or jiggs on brinstar isn't valid because no one plays ICs

Did you miss the two other posts that completely picked that argument apart? Brinstar isn't legal and it's debatable if Fox loses the ICs matchup significantly on FD, which he can always ban. Fox in practice isn't some broken god character, but I'm pretty sure most people would agree that even in practice he doesn't have losing matchups.[/Melee]

snake beats diddy. pretty sure that isn't being debated by people.

small advantage but he beats him

I know for a fact that Ally and several other Snakes would argue it's even. A small advantage isn't a "counter" worth speaking of either way, it's not something that holds a character back.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Oh for ****'s sake, this is getting ridiculous. I'll be blunt: name me one American ZSS who has done half the **** Salem has, from a purely technical standpoint. Yes, his results aren't amazing, but the **** he pulled off is. If you can't see from this that the metagame is not at its peak, then you're a moron. There are some incredibly underrated, underrepresented characters in this game still, even in and around top tier. And yet we're supposed to believe that MK is this unstoppable behemoth that nobody can handle, and that we've searched long and hard enough? Even though there's damn good reason to believe that nobody has a degree of mastery over their character similar to M2K's?

No, what IS getting ridiculous is that your seeming intent with using examples like this one is to indicate that some characters might be able develop to the point that MK still wont **** their ***** if the players are on a high level and have matchup experience. This is ridiculous because, theorycrafting being unreliable and all, it's still unlikely to the point that it doesn't come near to functioning as an argument.

Furthermore, youre examples from street fighter and other games simply don't apply, you are ignoring the extent of MK's ability to dominate. Sure I don't get to ***** about DDD because I picked DK, but I think it's within reason to feel a little bit frustrated when you're gonna get **** on for picking any other character than MK, sure this isn't the case in europe, but that is irrelevant because this concerns the american metagame in which your possible metaknight counters are just not that. I dig how you even wrote that aren't obviously stomped on to clarify what a counter means when talking about MK; nonetheless, it would've been more accurate to just leave out the word counter altogether.

But this **** is all because you project your own ideals onto the community. You mention that people still lose to crap characters now and then due to matchup experience, hmm could have this have something to do with metaknight having dominated the scene? In an ideal world we might have people being able to manage everything at once; however, after 4 years it's quite clear that this isn't going to happen. Indeed I think it is perfectly within reason to assume it likely that the banning of metaknight can be very good for the metagame because several characters see a big rise in viability with him banned. This in turn might then force other people to increase their knowledge of the game and learn new matchups, something they might actually be able to do now that they don't have to focus on beating ****ing metaknight.

 

[Eddie G]

Man...how many times is Hippie going to take a logical dump on BPC's idealistic rantings in one day? Either way, I'm not complaining. xD

 

[DMG]

Where the **** did I say either of those things? Jesus ****, if I put a match near your feet, you would burn to the ground.

Bad as in scrubby

You're a scrub if you don't play MK

But if everyone plays MK to avoid the scrub, that's ok too

Other metagames aren't as advanced as MK, but what's the point of playing someone else besides MK? See the point.


Either let people like Illmatic complain about MK since he plays a different character and tries to advance the metagame vs MK, OR just tell everyone to play MK/better characters in general and effectively kill diversity. You can't ask people to find the MK counter while also calling them scrubby at the same time.

 

[IhaveSonar]

...So you're a scrub who picked a bad character with a horrible matchup against the most popular character in the game, and then found that the correct solution to the "problem" was not to either accept it or switch to a secondary, but rather to ***** and moan until the character is banned. For just a moment, think about what would happen in the analogue in the SF4 community*– a high-caliber Zangief complains that Sagat is broken, and doesn't wanna pick up a secondary for the matchup. He'd be laughed at. But this is okay. Because we're the smash community.

So, uh.... who would that MK counter be again?

 

[Ripple]

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What I am curious about is if this will cause a rise in American attendance, that might be a better justification than anything else.

We've had a few reports in this thread about getting really good turnouts in MK-Banned Tourneys. So yeah, it has happened. I don't remember what exact posts they were, though.

@BPC: I'll be very blunt here: We've had over 3 years to develop tactics against MK. They have yet to work consistently enough to knock him out of God Tier. If that didn't happen by now, the chances of it happening now are extremely slim as is. Hell, it may never happen. Likewise, it's great that he's not a problem in your part of the UK, but he is in the US. Where the ban is. It does not apply to you unless you plan on selecting MK specifically and want to play in the US. Otherwise, your complaints are unwarranted.

Likewise, Hippie is completely correct. Maybe some day when the meta not based around MK changes with new tactics, he could come back, and might not be as big of a deal. But we won't know that because he keeps getting selected, and every other character just has no chance to really develop as long as MK exists. So yeah, we want other characters to develop. If they're indeed being held back, this'll prove it overall. I can easily foresee a new metagame and tier list. And it might not change at all.

But we can't know that until we try it.

 

[Cassio]

I was thinking along the same thing.
It's really quite ridiculous, especially when most of the people arguing those expectations haven't even reached the top lvls of their own chrs.

No, some of us simply give credit to those that deserve it. The way you interpreted that quote and if thats what DMG actually meant, MK mains dont deserve their success from skill. I doubt youll find that many agree.

 

[DMG]

What he meant was the expectations BPC has for people like Gnes are unrealistically high. Not "oh you play MK you have no skill you just get carried."

 

[Cassio]

lol, ok with that context I agree.

 

[z00ted]

Either let people like Illmatic complain about MK since he plays a different character and tries to advance the metagame vs MK, OR just tell everyone to play MK/better characters in general and effectively kill diversity. You can't ask people to find the MK counter while also calling them scrubby at the same time.

Yesss

Brawl is unlike any other game because it is offering us the opportunity to create a somewhat fair and balanced game even 4 years after it's release. I have never seen a game in which so many characters have the opportunity to actually succeed in tournament (even with Metaknight legal). The evidence is right there in front of us, and we have all agreed upon it through matchup charts, tier lists, stage analysis, etc etc. Yet, certain people still feel the need to keep the upmost competitive spirit by keeping Metaknight in this game and hindering it.

 

[ElDominio]

I loved this post lol

And yeah BPC, your points are starting to sound like what people are starting to say
"You're a scrub if you don't pick MK"

A classic case of screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.
Either everyone stops being a scrub and picks MK, then we have Meta Smash Knights, or we just get laughed at and fill the pot since we didn't pick MK, and he's obviously going to win.

 

[Ripple]

it gets worse

 

[Kuro~]

Diddy can be counter picked by stages to a certain degree as well.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Bad as in scrubby

You're a scrub if you don't play MK

No, you're a scrub if you ***** about it incessantly and try to get the character banned because you can't deal with it, rather than either getting better with your character or picking another one. Please represent my arguments accurately. And please do not infer that "picking another one" automatically means MK. There's a lot of viable characters who don't fail horribly against MK. Peach happens to not be one of them.

@BPC: I'll be very blunt here: We've had over 3 years to develop tactics against MK. They have yet to work consistently enough to knock him out of God Tier. If that didn't happen by now, the chances of it happening now are extremely slim as is. Hell, it may never happen. Likewise, it's great that he's not a problem in your part of the UK, but he is in the US. Where the ban is. It does not apply to you unless you plan on selecting MK specifically and want to play in the US. Otherwise, your complaints are unwarranted.

We've had 3 years of people like Snakeeee and NickRiddle showing us that ZSS can be successful as a campy, gimmicky character, and then all of a sudden someone like Salem comes out of nowhere and flips the ZSS meta on its head. The USA still lacks mains of most characters at top levels; you have one marth, one falco, maybe one or two snakes if that, one or two diddies, one olimar (or two? I think RichBrown quit), one ICs (who only recently started making waves with the character), and... like 7 MKs who are truly at a top level of play. Although to be fair, with the attitudes that the American brawl scene holds, this isn't likely to change any time soon. I understand the sentiment of banning MK and watching the metagame evolve... But I fail to see how we could ever go back.

So, uh.... who would that MK counter be again?

Please think before posting. ^^

No, what IS getting ridiculous is that your seeming intent with using examples like this one is to indicate that some characters might be able develop to the point that MK still wont **** their ***** if the players are on a high level and have matchup experience. This is ridiculous because, theorycrafting being unreliable and all, it's still unlikely to the point that it doesn't come near to functioning as an argument.

I honestly can't wait for the rest of the world to show you guys what you're missing out on at APEX. I'll give you a hint: it involves most of the rest of top tier.

Furthermore, youre examples from street fighter and other games simply don't apply, you are ignoring the extent of MK's ability to dominate. Sure I don't get to ***** about DDD because I picked DK, but I think it's within reason to feel a little bit frustrated when you're gonna get **** on for picking any other character than MK, sure this isn't the case in europe, but that is irrelevant because this concerns the american metagame in which your possible metaknight counters are just not that.

First of all, the Chun-Li example is completely accurate, not the least because the last evo to run 3S had IIRC 5 chuns in top 8. Second of all, you don't get "**** on" for picking any character other than MK. In case you weren't paying attention, 55:45 is not "**** on". Claiming that MK ****s on Snake, Falco, Diddy, and Olimar (just to name the 4 obvious ones) is stupid.

I'm just gonna restate that the problem with the US metagame is a systemic issue with the brawl community. If banning MK is what it takes, then fine. But the way people flocked to MK... it's actually quite scary to imagine that these ******** "slippery slope" arguments may have a grain of truth to them.

 

[Hippieslayer]

I honestly can't wait for the rest of the world to show you guys what you're missing out on at APEX. I'll give you a hint: it involves most of the rest of top tier.



First of all, the Chun-Li example is completely accurate, not the least because the last evo to run 3S had IIRC 5 chuns in top 8. Second of all, you don't get "**** on" for picking any character other than MK. In case you weren't paying attention, 55:45 is not "**** on". Claiming that MK ****s on Snake, Falco, Diddy, and Olimar (just to name the 4 obvious ones) is stupid.

I'm just gonna restate that the problem with the US metagame is a systemic issue with the brawl community. If banning MK is what it takes, then fine. But the way people flocked to MK... it's actually quite scary to imagine that these ******** "slippery slope" arguments may have a grain of truth to them.

Well I think ZSS is an exception of a character, and really it was just one tourney, don't see the same **** happening with other high tiers, but hell, if Apex proves me wrong that'd be pretty cool.

Also if the Chun-Li case is identical to that of Metaknight then I'll just state that I don't believe two wrongs make a right, and your matchup ratios are off, but whatever I cba to argue.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

But.......no.......wait.
You're telling us that because we can't win vs MK, were scrubs because we can't? You do realize the **** ANY other character has to go through to make a matchup plus 1 vs that thing, right? His frame data is ********. All of MK is a snake utilt, to put it bluntly. That, mixed with his various styles of play, planking, and overall metagame make him the best. Now the game is centralized over him. A player can pick him up on the side and learn BASIC play, and wreck.

As much as I'd like to understand what you're saying BPC, about how it should be against the player and not the character, odd are stacked way to high to even make a valid argument about it. You're not the peach who gets SL'd, nor the diddy who gets planked, nor the snake who gets juggled for days on end. MK may not be broken, but it ain't the small advantage it seems to be. But ya know.

In short.......no.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Not really. Top level players (overall) are top level players because they beat top level players. Character specific top level players are character specific top level players because they can beat certain players. Certain characters require the player to beat top level players in order to become a character specific top level player because of the bar that other character specific top level players have set

I forgot to answer this but I did a search just so that I could refute this:

Top level players are just top level players because they have more skill than other players, also I think the bar is just set by top level players. Therefore the bar is set by more skill than other players. And since the bar is the sum of the bar set by the top players the bar in itself has more skill than any individual top player and arguably as much as all of them together. Therefore it is important to remember that the bar sets the bar just as much the top level players. Therefore you are wrong.

 

[Ripple]

All of MK is a snake utilt, to put it bluntly.

 

[Mota]

Exactly what I was going to say.

There are characters that go even with Diddy at LEAST, that's where stage selection comes into to further tip the scales.

With MK you couldn't really do that.

 

[IhaveSonar]

Please think before posting. ^^

Notice the

 

[da K.I.D.]

Probably the last time I post here.

Taking into account that
-M2K has literally made smash his job and has experience paralleled by no-one

Just because M2K is the only one that goes around bragging about how hes spent 50000 hours playing smash over the last 10 years, doesnt mean nobody else does that. You have no way to prove this statement and its not a valid arguement.

-M2K has the ability to focus unlike extremely few in the community

I interpret this as, only people with aspergers can be great at smash.
Either way the fact is that there are other people that can have his level of focus.

-M2K is literally able to sit and play CPUs for hours.

Once again, he brags and makes it very clear that he does this, but you cant take that to mean hes the only one that does.

-M2k never plays anyone but MK

That is irrelevant. The fact that he doesnt play other characters doesnt somehow inherently make him better than others.

No one is on M2K's level. No one will ever be on M2K's level now that MK is banned.

Hasnt half of your arguement been 'dont jump to conclusions yet since the ban just started'?

its completely pointless to speculate

quoted for contradiction to the previous quote.

tbqh thats exactly why im anti-ban. In spite of any disadvantage or difficulty, the chance to face that challenge and improve and get better is a driving force. Its competitive, its exciting, its thrilling, its fun. Unfortunately its the truth that a lot of people faced with challenges will give up. Im not saying thats a train about MK pro-ban its just sort of people in general. If MK were really unbeatable Id have no issue with his ban. In fact I even have sympathy for the people who have given up and didnt mind having both types of tournaments, because I know its hard and in a different way fun to see diverse results.

Whats depressing is that any chance at having fun and that ultimate challenge was taken away. The real chance at being competitive was outright eliminated.

This sounds like an arguement for leaving a boss character legal in a fighting game. Like Gill, or Algol or something.

The USA still lacks mains of most characters at top levels; you have one marth, one falco, maybe one or two snakes if that, one or two diddies, one olimar (or two? I think RichBrown quit), one ICs (who only recently started making waves with the character), and... like 7 MKs who are truly at a top level of play.

I think youre forgetting a few.
theres actually 2 falco, Dehf and shugo
3 diddys, felix
youre also forgeting:
the 2 ikes
the at least 2 sonics
the 3 DKs
the 3 foxes
coneys ddd
the two lucarios
the luigi
the 1 or 2 lucases
the 2 nesses
the pikachu
2 or 3 shieks.
the toon link
the 2 wolfs
and like 2 or 3 yoshis.

Im pretty sure thats more top level players and top level characters than europe and japan put together.



Basically all this boils down to people like Cassio and BPC setting their standards for 'broken' way too high. Which like DMG said is practically offensive to most everyone else.

 

[Steam]

ITT: raging metaknight mains and pissed off mid tier users.

but seriously... a MK ban will only lead to more diversity. that and the finals matches of every national tourney won't just be MK dittos so they'll probably be a little fresher/more entertaining to most.

 

[Kuro~]

Naw you guys will get tired of seeing dabuz in grand finals