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Meta Knight Officially Banned!

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Cassio

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Its "each match on this stage will probably go to 8 minutes" gay.

And assuming the amount of time and effort any person has put into the game is a pointless, fruitless, inconsequential, and unverifiable argument. Thus, it holds no merit.
Why would we assume that?
Nah, he really didn't.

Unless you think Ally, Nairo, Anti, etc... all have aspergers too?
lol...I cant believe you made those comparisons.

BPC made a good point, but I think part of it is just the large network of top level players MK has. When you have that many top level players working on the same character his adapdability shoots through the roof.
 

da K.I.D.

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if you read the quote that i responded to in that quote cassio, I was saying that because bpc was backing his claim that m2k/other top level players put more time into the game than anybody else. which i can easily claim is untrue. but the fact is that theres no way to verify who has put more hours than who into the game, and that shouldnt be used as justification for any argument.

also the other point you make is the fundamental difference between the opinions of the 2 camps. and Cant be rectified.

anti ban: The only reason Mk is broken is because a disproportionate number of top players use him and have collectively pushed the character farther than any other character. Hes wouldnt be broken if the broken players didnt play him.

Pro ban: All of the best players play Mk because hes broken and the best players want to win. and in that vein playing anything other than mk is a serious detriment to their ability to win because MK is broken and on a level of viability that no other character can even compare to.

If you believe one of these statements, your going to be vehemently opposed to the other, and at this point nothing is going to convince you otherwise.
 

Cassio

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Ok let me ask this question than. If the best character in the game is only a little better than others but not broken (for easier comparison lets say they have no discernible negative MUs), why wouldnt the best players pick them in a "play to win" mentality since choosing any other character is a detriment to their ability to win?
 

DMG

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People are going to play the best character regardless

SO LOOK AT THE ACTUAL CHARACTER INSTEAD OF THESE WHAT IF COMPARISONS HOLY ****

LOOOOOOOOK ATTTTTTTTTTT THEEEEEEEEE CHARACTERRRRRRRRRRR

Popularity can boost either side. He's popular for being the best character, who cares. He's popular for being broken, who cares. At the end of the day will you people please just look at the character like holy christ I hate talking to some of you lol.
 

Strife

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Ok let me ask this question than. If the best character in the game is only a little better than others but not broken (for easier comparison lets say they have no discernible negative MUs), why wouldnt the best players pick them in a "play to win" mentality since choosing any other character is a detriment to their ability to win?
Probably cause a lot of the best players don't only play to win.

If there is on a slight difference between the best character and the rest of the cast then there is more likely to be division among the top of player of who they pick as picking the best character or not doesn't have a significant change on your chances of winning, however if there is a large difference between the best and the rest of the cast then there is going to be a heavy centralization because picking the best character has a significant impact on your chances of winning.

I'm really not sure if metaknight was so great that he warranted a ban though. I think they should have experiment with more rules to contain him before out-right banning him. What I would have loved/love to see is a anti-metaknight time out rule, where if the game goes to time then metaknight automatically loses the match. That is even if Metaknight is in the lead in stocks or % he would still lose the match. Yes, this is selectively applying a rule to one character that doesn't apply to others, but the point of that would be to compensate for how easy it is for metaknight to time characters out. I really do believe a lot more people would be against metaknight being banned if they weren't so salty(perhaps justly so) about being timed out by metaknight's incredible stalling capabilities.
 

Judo777

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*facepalms.*

KID, bro, Akuma's air fireball setups could not be answerable by anything. All he had to do was get you in one balls-easy blockstring and it's a free unblockable mix-up which usually means it's touch of death time in ST. I don't think an aggroing MK has anything comparable to instant death on the cast, which is kinda my point. In some games, there are some characters that just have more tools than others and they completely outshine everybody else. In Brawl, it's pretty much the same way. With MK gone, what's going to change that?

I stand by the fact that the techniques that the character can employ are arguably broken. Not the character itself.

Smooth Criminal
ST didn't have unblockables. And that's not why Akuma was good. Or at least half of what you said isn't true.
 

Grim Tuesday

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I stand by the fact that the techniques that the character can employ are arguably broken. Not the character itself.

Smooth Criminal
Don't quite understand this. Techniques are 90% of what makes up a character, so if characters are broken then yeah... the majority of the time it'll be because of their techniques, lol...

The only times it wouldn't be were if the character had infinite health, was unaffected by gravity, etc...
 

Smooth Criminal

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Don't quite understand this. Techniques are 90% of what makes up a character, so if characters are broken then yeah... the majority of the time it'll be because of their techniques, lol...

The only times it wouldn't be were if the character had infinite health, was unaffected by gravity, etc...
Fair enough.

You're more or less reiterating a point that DMG made to me earlier on.

*shrugs.* It was a poorly thought-out argument on my part. Like I said, I'll try and think of something.

Smooth Criminal
 

Verde Coeden Scalesworth

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Excuse me? Moves, Techniques, Strategies? Without these, characters are nothing.

If they're too powerful, which is the case, then yeah, there's an actual problem. Meta Knight may not be on the level of Akuma, but he's not that far off either.

We all know he's leagues above the main cast, and is only going even due to being nerfed.(and even then, not really very much even) Denying that's the best character in the game by a margin because of his design is silly. He was poorly made overall. If he was well-made, there would be no reason for us to have to make any rules besides the IDC, which all infinite stalling would be banned anyway.

Once again, the only suggestions to keep MK is play is to further nerf him, which just shows he's too powerful. Atleast a few people have better ideas like to have more courses available, and no LGL. That would change things up in general.
 

Spelt

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Fair enough.

You're more or less reiterating a point that DMG made to me earlier on.

*shrugs.* It was a poorly thought-out argument on my part. Like I said, I'll try and think of something.

Smooth Criminal
Think of something...? :/

If you really believe something you shouldn't need to think about it, you should already know why you believe it.
 

Smooth Criminal

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Think of something...? :/

If you really believe something you shouldn't need to think about it, you should already know why you believe it.
In bold.

That statement...twisted my brain. On a knife. Several freakin' times. I think I understand what you're getting at, Spelt. If I may present it thusly:

Well, I don't necessarily believe in what I may be thinking. I'm more or less expressing the act of weighing what was presented to me to counter my argument. I'm trying to see if I a) presented my case in a way that was wrong or b) I'm wrong altogether and I need to go have my head checked. I'm leaning more towards choice b 'cause everybody's points have been fairly solid. You can't really have one broken thing (a character, in this case) without the other (said broken character's techniques). At what point can you say that the two aren't interrelated...?

*shrugs.*

AKA I'm trying to be reasonable.

I would like to see if I can come up with something that's debate-worthy, at the very least.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Oh my bad. Next time I'll adapt by jumping offstage with my 6 jumps and have an awesome amazing dbz battle.

How the **** could I adapt to a something flying under the stage and attacking me through the stage, like, we weren't even fighting. Please tell me. I want to know more. Teach me budget player cadet.
Beats me. How does any diddy ever win against an MK who plays like that on Smashville? Like, see how he starts to glide at time? Glide has lag, you have bananas and fast aerials, and he's close to the blastzone. I dunno, try **** like banana throw->fair to punish the glide? It's risky, but what's he going to do? He's gliding. I'm not a professional diddy player, but I will say this: for some reason, scrooging doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as a strategy that breaks a difficult matchup in half should. Either someone has learned to beat it, or the MKs are being honorable. Beats me.

People are going to play the best character regardless

SO LOOK AT THE ACTUAL CHARACTER INSTEAD OF THESE WHAT IF COMPARISONS HOLY ****

LOOOOOOOOK ATTTTTTTTTTT THEEEEEEEEE CHARACTERRRRRRRRRRR

Popularity can boost either side. He's popular for being the best character, who cares. He's popular for being broken, who cares. At the end of the day will you people please just look at the character like holy christ I hate talking to some of you lol.
Looking at the character doesn't really help us either. Theorycraft is a terrible way of establishing character ability in real matches.
 

DiSQO_BuNNY

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Beats me. How does any diddy ever win against an MK who plays like that on Smashville? Like, see how he starts to glide at time? Glide has lag, you have bananas and fast aerials, and he's close to the blastzone. I dunno, try **** like banana throw->fair to punish the glide? It's risky, but what's he going to do? He's gliding. I'm not a professional diddy player, but I will say this: for some reason, scrooging doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as a strategy that breaks a difficult matchup in half should. Either someone has learned to beat it, or the MKs are being honorable. Beats me.
This is like telling wolf to chase Kirby offstage because it's risky. Yeah, it's suicide too. But ya know, if it works for you, then use your nana to fair all day baby boy.

:phone:
 

Hippieslayer

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Beats me. How does any diddy ever win against an MK who plays like that on Smashville? Like, see how he starts to glide at time? Glide has lag, you have bananas and fast aerials, and he's close to the blastzone. I dunno, try **** like banana throw->fair to punish the glide? It's risky, but what's he going to do? He's gliding. I'm not a professional diddy player, but I will say this: for some reason, scrooging doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as a strategy that breaks a difficult matchup in half should. Either someone has learned to beat it, or the MKs are being honorable. Beats me.



Looking at the character doesn't really help us either. Theorycraft is a terrible way of establishing character ability in real matches.
What if he doesn't have a banana at the time? :p

In any case I think your looking at the player is just as speculative as focusing on the character. As DMG pointed out earlier on we'll never know what M2K could've done with another character like DDD. Nor do we know (or will ever know for that matter) whether a bunch of other characters have hidden potential.

It feels like the case you are making here is that because we do not know the above, we cannot decide based on what we do know, from theorycrafting and data. It kinda feels like you're demanding a kind of certainty, or complete picture that we will never have in order to warrant any kind of action. In other words you're using the lack of one fact to claim that another fact isn't a fact as if though they were not seperate facts to begin with.
I mean if banning MK could've lead to the sun exploding and destroying humanity then I'd understand where youre coming from. But as it is, the worst that can happen is that it turns out MK was not broken, that the community suffers too much from the controversy of the issue, or both. In either case it will be a valuable experience.

It also seems to me like you resort to writing a lot of stuff that doesn't really hold up to a closer analysis just for the sake of argument, for example a crazy offensive zero suit wrecking some balls at a tourney doesn't really say much.
 

Strife

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I'm bothered by this ban because one of the reasons I ever bothered to watch Brawl videos is because I liked seeing Metaknights lose. At the same time I always hated seeing Metaknights win by timeouts. Which is why I suggested my metaknight time out rule from before but......I digress.
 

DMG

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I hate all you guys for quoting smooth criminal like a day after I did lol.

BPC: You don't see MK's playing like that much because yes a lot of them are "honorable" at certain timing out stuff (for example they will have no problem going to CP stage like Rainbow and playing keepaway, but aren't nearly as likely to scrooge you game 1. Where timing out on the CP stage is to keep them alive in the set, not to inherently play like a ****** from the get go).

The other thing is that some areas have been putting in scrooging rules/stricter anti MK stalling TO discretion that dissuades people from doing that. In either case, I can GUARANTEE you that the reason you don't see it as much is NOT because it's something beatable that's been figured out already that Gnes couldn't do or remember or figure out. So now what do we do? Install a national anti scrooging rule? Take SV out of the game? Like are you starting to see the reach MK has on this game by now lol?
 

DMG

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"Hey DMG brought up a point, let me requote this and then assault this other guy intelligence even if I may have not come to that conclusion/so fast if DMG didn't point it out. THANKS RED BULL!"

That's basically what happened. Still love ya bro :)
 
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What if he doesn't have a banana at the time? :p

In any case I think your looking at the player is just as speculative as focusing on the character. As DMG pointed out earlier on we'll never know what M2K could've done with another character like DDD. Nor do we know (or will ever know for that matter) whether a bunch of other characters have hidden potential.

It feels like the case you are making here is that because we do not know the above, we cannot decide based on what we do know, from theorycrafting and data. It kinda feels like you're demanding a kind of certainty, or complete picture that we will never have in order to warrant any kind of action. In other words you're using the lack of one fact to claim that another fact isn't a fact as if though they were not seperate facts to begin with.
I mean if banning MK could've lead to the sun exploding and destroying humanity then I'd understand where youre coming from. But as it is, the worst that can happen is that it turns out MK was not broken, that the community suffers too much from the controversy of the issue, or both. In either case it will be a valuable experience.

It also seems to me like you resort to writing a lot of stuff that doesn't really hold up to a closer analysis just for the sake of argument, for example a crazy offensive zero suit wrecking some balls at a tourney doesn't really say much.
**** post, tbh
 
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What if he doesn't have a banana at the time? :p
Stop trollin' brah.

In any case I think your looking at the player is just as speculative as focusing on the character. As DMG pointed out earlier on we'll never know what M2K could've done with another character like DDD. Nor do we know (or will ever know for that matter) whether a bunch of other characters have hidden potential.
Well, we sure as hell know that ZSS does. And that's kinda what I'm talking about: almost nobody is truly on point with their character the way M2K is. Is it any wonder that MK is seen as dominant when most of the best players in the country use him, several directly mentored by someone who has truly mastered the character?

It feels like the case you are making here is that because we do not know the above, we cannot decide based on what we do know, from theorycrafting and data. It kinda feels like you're demanding a kind of certainty, or complete picture that we will never have in order to warrant any kind of action. In other words you're using the lack of one fact to claim that another fact isn't a fact as if though they were not seperate facts to begin with.
I'm fine with this right up to the last sentence. "Fact"? I'm not denying facts. I'm not claiming that MK's nair is not a frame 3 kill move that does 20 damage. I'm not denying that his uair lasts 13 frames. I'm denying opinions; things like that those facts make MK clearly broken. I'm denying theorycraft, which simply does not work in brawl, save for very certain cases such as IDC and Planking. My problem with theorycrafting is just how easy it is to say something ridiculous, back it up with frame data, and leave it at that. It's so easy to ignore things, to leave things out. Like, the classic example: MK's ftilt outranges and outspeeds snake's, and dtilt is better too; therefore MK should technically win on the ground against snake. Seems like solid theorycraft, right? Of course not, we know better. But if we didn't? People wouldn't shut up about it, I reckon.

It also seems to me like you resort to writing a lot of stuff that doesn't really hold up to a closer analysis just for the sake of argument, for example a crazy offensive zero suit wrecking some balls at a tourney doesn't really say much.
Uh... You miss the point of the Salem example completely. The point was not "cool, now ZSS is an MK counter" or anything of the sort. It was simply to show that there's a lot about the game that we still don't know. I mean, come on. A fairly unknown wifi player comes to a tournament, pulls out a character that is criminally underused, uses a playstyle we have never seen before with incredible technical precision, and places 5th at a NY/NJ regional that was ****ing swamped with the character that ZSS apparently gets ***** by. That should be a moment of introspection for the community; the realization, "holy ****, we have no idea what we're doing at times" is a pretty harsh one. But the realization that some characters have incredibly underdeveloped metagames, and that most characters aren't even close to as developed as Metaknight, shouldn't be.
 

Eddie G

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And can you guess why they aren't as developed? It's because of him. He filters them all out of bracket or discourages people from using them entirely before matchups such as ZSS vs ______ can even take place.

I also disagree with your point about M2K being the only person on a completely different level with his character. TKD immediately comes to mind.

:phone:
 

da K.I.D.

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theres also the fact that theres nothing out there that explicitly is saying that even if those character WERE more fully explored, they wouldnt still get ***** by peoples secondary metaknights just because they know the matchup.

Its just like shadow pretty-good-but-not-great falco wiping the floor with salem just because he knows the matchup better than anybody else. Except the problem is vastly exacerbated by MK himself.
 
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BPC: You don't see MK's playing like that much because yes a lot of them are "honorable" at certain timing out stuff (for example they will have no problem going to CP stage like Rainbow and playing keepaway, but aren't nearly as likely to scrooge you game 1. Where timing out on the CP stage is to keep them alive in the set, not to inherently play like a ****** from the get go).

The other thing is that some areas have been putting in scrooging rules/stricter anti MK stalling TO discretion that dissuades people from doing that. In either case, I can GUARANTEE you that the reason you don't see it as much is NOT because it's something beatable that's been figured out already that Gnes couldn't do or remember or figure out. So now what do we do? Install a national anti scrooging rule? Take SV out of the game? Like are you starting to see the reach MK has on this game by now lol?
Interesting to note is that, should scrooging actually be a real issue, the precedent here is to ban Smashville. Just sayin'. ^^

And can you guess why they aren't as developed? It's because of him. He filters them all out of bracket or discourages people from using them entirely before matchups such as ZSS vs ______ can even take place.
You know what I find interesting about this comment? Beyond the horrible logic (in NE, you have the same effect with snake and falco instead of MK), it says more about the smash community than anything else. This could've happened in SF4–Sagat was easy to use, the best character in the game by a pretty decent margin, and a lot of people used him. Come EVO, and we have Ryu vs. Balrog in grand finals. It could've happened in AE, but we had Viper, Fei Long, and Seth in top 3. It did happen in Third Strike, but nobody really complained about it.

Even if MK reduces game balance, guess what: that's what top tier characters tend to do. Ditch all of top tier, and suddenly you'll see a lot more variety. Why? Because you won't have all those ludicrously lopsided matchups that are involved. But of course we shouldn't do that, it's ridiculous. Your argument is bad. But what's worse... Do you honestly think that this is true? Salem played against what, 3-4 Falcos at that tournament? You wanna tell me he would play against that many MKs in an MK-banned tournament? That he would only face up against top MKs? Even with players like Holy and Will there, who place well despite MK wrecking their characters? Even with Dabuz and Vinnie, who always top 8 without MK?

Claiming that MK "filters characters out of the bracket" is stupid. Every character with good matchups does that.

I also disagree with your point about M2K being the only person on a completely different level with his character. TKD immediately comes to mind.
TKD is a start. He also uses Fox, a character who is ridiculously underused.


@KID: we've gone so far in circles that the main point got lost: MK may very well have bad matchups, it's just that nobody is good enough at using their characters' tools to show it off.
 

DMG

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It's also possible that MK already weeds out many of those "possible" bad MU's in tournament or many of those characters that have potential. You wonder why you don't see Peach ROB G&W etc more in tournament and even TL in tournament? It's not simply because "people are lazy". I mean telling someone to become a national level TL player, to develop his metagame, and then have most of it all in vain because MK still wins? That's just cold man. "Hey, devote your life to this character. You may go even with MK players or even beat them!" *Some guy takes a few days to learn the MK vs X character MU* "Man I wish I didn't spend 3 years maining this character when I could play him instead" Asking someone to not only accept playing a worse character, but take MORE time playing this worse character than other people in the offchance that they might find a guaranteed even or positive MU on MK is simply crazy. How about you go play ROB 3x as much as Holy or Peach longer than Illmatic or DK longer than Will, and you tell me how well you do vs MK. Hell, try playing Wario for as long as I have and as GAY as I have and see what the other side looks like.



It's a lot easier to say get better, or advance other characters metagames when you're on the sidelines than someone who plays a non MK character, doesn't fold under the pressure to simply say **** it and main him, people who shape the metagame of their own characters and define how MU's are played. If it's not easy to pick up MK and start winning, imagine how hard it is trying to do that with other characters. If it takes a lifetime of analysis and M2K like players pushing your metagame is what it takes for MK to reach that high, do you even THINK another character can reach that high regardless of the effort you put into them? Have you considered that maybe it's not worth it piling in a bunch of effort into a character who's "mountain peak" will always be a lot shorter than what MK can reach?
 

Gnes

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Beats me. How does any diddy ever win against an MK who plays like that on Smashville? Like, see how he starts to glide at time? Glide has lag, you have bananas and fast aerials, and he's close to the blastzone. I dunno, try **** like banana throw->fair to punish the glide? It's risky, but what's he going to do? He's gliding. I'm not a professional diddy player, but I will say this: for some reason, scrooging doesn't seem to happen nearly as often as a strategy that breaks a difficult matchup in half should. Either someone has learned to beat it, or the MKs are being honorable. Beats me.
Glide can be cancelled, and naners can only be thrown in a

L

First, if mk does play like that, and gets the lead, diddy doesn't win. Simple enough to understand.

Second, don't make assumptions about a characters AND matchups you obviously no nothing about. Theorycraft doesn't lead to practicality. People don't seem to realize that the argument about planking/scrooging isn't about beating it, but because the risk reward is INCREDIBLY stacked in mks favor. Why would I risk 15% on him at the potential cost of my stock?
 

da K.I.D.

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@KID: we've gone so far in circles that the main point got lost: MK may very well have bad matchups, it's just that nobody is good enough at using their characters' tools to show it off.
Personally, I find this the be incredibly disingenuous and highly disrespectful to people like fatal, and razer, coney, shugo, kain, will, espy, san, and plenty others.

The fact that you believe that there isnt a single person out of the hundreds, possibly thousands of smashers out there that is as intelligent as m2k at the game seems ludicrous. There are honestly plenty of people out there than are just as smart as m2k in game, and play other characters but he plays a character that is so far above them that you wouldnt even notice.

Your basically admitting that you wont believe the metagame is at its peak until somebody has a positive matchup on MK, and if that never happens then the game wont have fully progressed.

Most characters are a lot more progressed than you give them credit for. You either dont notice it or just cant see that mk really is that much better than them at their peak.

You can say stuff like what would happen if ally played wolf or something along those lines, but even when he did, he lost to pelcas falco.
 

DMG

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I did one time. A MK sloppily tried to time me out on SV (it was working, but he wasn't doing it as full blown as M2K/a bit more obvious choices made). 10 seconds left, had to chase him under the stage, scare him, and land a fart to kill him. Was really bull**** what I had to do, and he definitely had answers to it just got caught up and made a big mistake.
 

Eddie G

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I'm sorry BPC...but at this point you seem impossible to convince. Claiming that no other player out there has the thinking capacity for this game to match M2K's enough to create a positive matchup against his character is even more asinine than what you claim my argument to be, and downright disrespectful to the top players out there who have really pushed their characters. Those expectations are impossible to fulfill no matter how good a player is. MK is just that much better, and it astounds me that anyone still thinks he might have a disadvantaged matchup somehow.

You're in Europe, your metagame works differently, your MKs are fairly subpar in comparison to ours, and you play MK in tournament yourself, so to make a comment like that from the sidelines with those kind of fabricated expectations...I just don't know. Why don't you get your *** out there and try to 'revolutionize" a different character under the same circumstances, go ahead...see just how asinine your expectations are for yourself.

:phone:
 

Juushichi

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K.I.D. and DMG come with the double scoop of **** and KB puts the cherry on top of what Gnes (and I suppose ADHD mentioned way early) was alluding to.

Completely sums up my thoughts on the matter.

:phone:
 

Cassio

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 1, 2011
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3,185
What if he doesn't have a banana at the time? :p

In any case I think your looking at the player is just as speculative as focusing on the character. As DMG pointed out earlier on we'll never know what M2K could've done with another character like DDD. Nor do we know (or will ever know for that matter) whether a bunch of other characters have hidden potential.

It feels like the case you are making here is that because we do not know the above, we cannot decide based on what we do know, from theorycrafting and data. It kinda feels like you're demanding a kind of certainty, or complete picture that we will never have in order to warrant any kind of action. In other words you're using the lack of one fact to claim that another fact isn't a fact as if though they were not seperate facts to begin with.
Hooookay now. This wouldve been a good point if it werent for the fact that pro-ban is the one using this argument in the first place.
"well MK players could be playing gay but they dont!"

Metaknight is the best character in the game. This does not make him broken.

Unless you create a new definition for broken whereby, a character is "broken" because more people use him and not other characters and consequently cause them to be less developed, then the arguments from the last two pages are pretty much BS.
 
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