Meta Knight Officially Banned!

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Nah, he really didn't.

Unless you think Ally, Nairo, Anti, etc... all have aspergers too?

Well, we do know that they all invest more time into the game than most of the rest of us combined.

EDIT: will someone please tell me that the most recent Japanese tournament didn't really have MKs in all of the top 6 spots?

 

[tekkie]

on the other hand watching an aggro MK is just a different kind of gay. instead of ftilt them then run away for 8 minutes it's destroy them with your vastly superior options.

whether the player is a vag or not, MK is still a piece of ****

 

[Smooth Criminal]

on the other hand watching an aggro MK is just a different kind of gay. instead of ftilt them then run away for 8 minutes it's destroy them with your vastly superior options.

Cry more?

At least I can see where people are coming from with the inherent lameness in planking and scrooging. Hell, at least those things can be contested to the point where it could arguably undermine competitive gameplay. This is just out and out scrubby.

Smooth Criminal

 

[da K.I.D.]

@Kid: does the term "player skill" mean anything to you? I mean, we could obviously say that anyone who makes Fei Long as good as Fuudo does in AE points to the character being broken, but that's nonsensical–other people just have to step up their ****ing games.

Dont go down this road with me. I know more about other games than you.

Theres a difference between winning with a strong character because you were smart enough to outplay the other guy (like in his match vs Poongko where he baited a low health character like seth into getting hit by Fei Longs rediculously strong ultra) and winning simply because your character is that much better than everyone else and you just know how to exploit it. Its actually not that hard to tell the difference.

Cry more?

At least I can see where people are coming from with the inherent lameness in planking and scrooging. Hell, at least those things can be contested to the point where it could arguably undermine competitive gameplay. This is just out and out scrubby.

Smooth Criminal

Not really. I hate to do this because its so played out, but ST akuma wasnt broken because he could run away forever.

It doesnt matter if a character is OP offensively, or OP defensively, the point is that the character is too good. MK just happens to tow the line between OP and bannable on defense AND offense.

 

[John12346]

EDIT: will someone please tell me that the most recent Japanese tournament didn't really have MKs in all of the top 6 spots?

Yeah, I saw that too:

1st Rain#MK
2nd Nietono#Olimar,MK
3rd Otori#MK
4th El#MK
5th Kakera#MK,ICs
　　 Yui#Fox,MK
7th Earth#Pit,Zelda&Sheik
　　 Kuroobi#Snake

I know it's important to not draw conclusions off one tournament, so don't worry about me using this for anything, but jeez, this REALLY surprised me.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I feel like BPCs world is crumbling down all around him.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Not really. I hate to do this because its so played out, but ST akuma wasnt broken because he could run away forever.

It doesnt matter if a character is OP offensively, or OP defensively, the point is that the character is too good. MK just happens to tow the line between OP and bannable on defense AND offense.

*facepalms.*

KID, bro, Akuma's air fireball setups could not be answerable by anything. All he had to do was get you in one balls-easy blockstring and it's a free unblockable mix-up which usually means it's touch of death time in ST. I don't think an aggroing MK has anything comparable to instant death on the cast, which is kinda my point. In some games, there are some characters that just have more tools than others and they completely outshine everybody else. In Brawl, it's pretty much the same way. With MK gone, what's going to change that?

I stand by the fact that the techniques that the character can employ are arguably broken. Not the character itself.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Yoshi]

Yoshi Approves.

This sums up my thoughts. I never liked MK in Brawl, maybe cause any kid could whip my butt with him.

 

[DMG]

What's the line between character and technique? I mean to pull OFF a technique or for something to work, you'd have to assume the character plays some part in it besides "being physically present" lol

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hrmm.

I'll concede that point to you, DMG. I'm probably not articulating my argument in the way I want to.

I'll get back to ya'll on this.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Dont go down this road with me. I know more about other games than you.

Theres a difference between winning with a strong character because you were smart enough to outplay the other guy (like in his match vs Poongko where he baited a low health character like seth into getting hit by Fei Longs rediculously strong ultra) and winning simply because your character is that much better than everyone else and you just know how to exploit it. Its actually not that hard to tell the difference.

If it's not that hard to tell the difference, why are you still complaining about Metaknight mains?

Look, I'm sorry, but the claim that players like M2K, Ally, Anti, and Nairo are getting "Carried" by MK is disingenuous in the extreme. It ignores the many, many MK mains who never reach that level of play, it ignores the top players who have, in fact, beaten them (and it's not exactly a short list), and it ignores the fact that most of them put in more time and energy in training the game than virtually anyone else on the planet. It's stupid. I mean, Yun is the best character in AE, but you'd never say that Daigo is getting carried, even in some of the more stupid matchups. Same with Chun and Daigo/JWong in third strike.

 

[da K.I.D.]

If it's not that hard to tell the difference, why are you still complaining about Metaknight mains?

Look, I'm sorry, but the claim that players like M2K, Ally, Anti, and Nairo are getting "Carried" by MK is disingenuous in the extreme. It ignores the many, many MK mains who never reach that level of play, it ignores the top players who have, in fact, beaten them (and it's not exactly a short list), and it ignores the fact that most of them put in more time and energy in training the game than virtually anyone else on the planet. It's stupid. I mean, Yun is the best character in AE, but you'd never say that Daigo is getting carried, even in some of the more stupid matchups. Same with Chun and Daigo/JWong in third strike.

If every character in the game had metaknights tornado, this would be a fair comparison.

Parrying was the best move in 3s, and every character could do it with the exact same timing. the more similar the characters are the harder it is for character choice to be an integral part of them winning.

I never said MK carries Jason. Im saying Jason carried MK to the level of being bannable due to the point that DMG made.

And assuming the amount of time and effort any person has put into the game is a pointless, fruitless, inconsequential, and unverifiable argument. Thus, it holds no merit.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If every character in the game had Chun-Li's low forward to super, this would be a fair comparison.

See how this works?

The more similar the characters are the harder it is for character choice to be an integral part of them winning.

Then why is the matchup chart so ridiculously skewed? We're talking characters with mostly 70:30 matchups here.

I never said MK carries Jason. Im saying Jason carried MK to the level of being bannable due to the point that DMG made.

It's implied when you say something like this that the fact that M2K is quite probably the single best player in the world does not matter. It's the character that's banworthy, because of his skill. Never mind his skill being the deciding factor here.

 

[da K.I.D.]

youre implying that just because hes the best means that nobody is close to him and nobody can get close to him, which conflicts with your other point about bringing up other players.
I look at it like this, When I see m2k play, the character looks bannable. To me that says, every single metaknight main has the possibility of being good enough to make the character broken. When I see Fuudo play, I think, wow hes really smart but he could probably play ryu and do just as well. Thats the difference between player skill and character ability.
So for the context of my statement, No, the fact that hes the best in the world doesnt matter because the character is still OP.

I dont feel like discussing inter-game matchup charts because it doesnt matter what numbers you use, they dont translate between games. Otherwise MK would have a lot more 8-2s and 9-1s.

 

[Zankoku]

Yeah, I saw that too:

1st Rain#MK
2nd Nietono#Olimar,MK
3rd Otori#MK
4th El#MK
5th Kakera#MK,ICs
　　 Yui#Fox,MK
7th Earth#Pit,Zelda&Sheik
　　 Kuroobi#Snake

I know it's important to not draw conclusions off one tournament, so don't worry about me using this for anything, but jeez, this REALLY surprised me.

Apparently Japan thinks the answer to APEX 2012 rules is Meta Knight, haha.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Apparently Japan thinks the answer to APEX 2012 rules is Meta Knight, haha.

MK's not the dominance, they say, eh? He tops, is the most chosen, etc. Pretty much how dominance works, right?

Silly people, the dominance point is ironclad and not flawed here. Even other countries are NOW(if not earlier) showing that.

Well, now that that point is true, I wonder what point they'll try to argue next.

 

[John12346]

Hyper, I'm pro-ban and would LOVE to push this point, but we really can't call shenanigans off a one time occurrence...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I said showing that.

But he is dominant in America, which we both know. Will he become completely dominant in other countries? Considering atleast one area banned him(Finland) before we did, it shows that he's not just a problem here either. Also, we both know that the only reason he's not dominating in Japan is that their ruleset makes it harder for him to do so. The reason it's easy for them to dominate in America is partially because of our ruleset. The other is that he's just the best damn character in the game.(also, I myself, would prefer less silly rules like the LGL, although the IDC is fine where it is, since that really has nothing to do with how good MK is)

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

youre implying that just because hes the best means that nobody is close to him and nobody can get close to him, which conflicts with your other point about bringing up other players.
I look at it like this, When I see m2k play, the character looks bannable. To me that says, every single metaknight main has the possibility of being good enough to make the character broken. When I see Fuudo play, I think, wow hes really smart but he could probably play ryu and do just as well. Thats the difference between player skill and character ability.

Maybe you're just, you know, biased and/or bad at telling the difference? Ever considered that one? When I see a game like M2K vs. Gnes back in '10, I also get the feeling, "damn, that's broken as ****". And then I stop, think for a minute, and realize that just because one top player can't do **** about it doesn't mean it's unbeatable, it means Gnes was unable to adapt. It would be immensely scrubby to ban him for something like that.

When you see M2K play, you see a player who has evolved his character to the top of the metagame. The best character, sure, but one with character development which is unmatched by anyone else. I mean, you can claim all you want that someone like ADHD has brought all that they could out of Diddy, or Dabuz has maxed Olimar's potential, but it seems weak. Especially when you consider:
- Vinnie getting better and better all the time with ICs
- 9B possibly being the best ICs main in the world
- Salem basically showing us that ZSS has a lot of room to grow; this one came out of left field
- The fact that we have one national-level Falco, and he's no longer really active
- The fact that we have very few marths worth mentioning (again: the only one worth mentioning is MikeHaze, and I sincerely doubt that he's better than Mr R)

...You get the point, I take it? There is no "M2K of Falco". There is no M2K for Marth or Olimar. There's just M2K, who has basically taken a great character, maxed his potential out, and then taught people around the country how to do the same.

 

[_Kain_]

Maybe you're just, you know, biased and/or bad at telling the difference? Ever considered that one? When I see a game like M2K vs. Gnes back in '10, I also get the feeling, "damn, that's broken as ****". And then I stop, think for a minute, and realize that just because one top player can't do **** about it doesn't mean it's unbeatable, it means Gnes was unable to adapt. It would be immensely scrubby to ban him for something like that.

When you see M2K play, you see a player who has evolved his character to the top of the metagame. The best character, sure, but one with character development which is unmatched by anyone else. I mean, you can claim all you want that someone like ADHD has brought all that they could out of Diddy, or Dabuz has maxed Olimar's potential, but it seems weak. Especially when you consider:
- Vinnie getting better and better all the time with ICs
- 9B possibly being the best ICs main in the world
- Salem basically showing us that ZSS has a lot of room to grow; this one came out of left field
- The fact that we have one national-level Falco, and he's no longer really active
- The fact that we have very few marths worth mentioning (again: the only one worth mentioning is MikeHaze, and I sincerely doubt that he's better than Mr R)

...You get the point, I take it? There is no "M2K of Falco". There is no M2K for Marth or Olimar. There's just M2K, who has basically taken a great character, maxed his potential out, and then taught people around the country how to do the same.

This is actually kinda correct. Lot of characters don't have that amazing player to expand that character's base, or show their true potential when played a certain way.

My head esploded when I saw how long Ally was living as Wolf. Wolf really is a fatass

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah. I mean, even low/mid tiers... Deltacod got 9th with Yoshi at a NJ regional–maybe there's something we're not seeing about the character, maybe people just don't know the matchup; either way, it's worth noting. People like Ally and Anti are showing that Wolf has potential we haven't seen before, and they don't use wolf. We haven't seen a truly top-level Peach or ROB... ever; the closest we've had are Holy and Nicole, which are amazing but imho not at the level with their characters that M2K is with his. Fox? Maybe TKD is close to maximum potential, maybe not. Pikachu? There is one Pikachu main in the USA who really places well. DDD? Coney damn near beat M2K in a ****ing 70-30 matchup, and now that he's gone, there's just Atomsk, who doesn't seem to be using DDD quite as much. Ness? What happened to Shaky and FoW? Sheik? That character has a ****load of potential, and very few people really using all of it.

 

[Juushichi]

Judo, Ed and people like Tree (got 9th in TX and almost beat Trela two weeks ago) are stepping it up with Sheik.

Unfortunately, it seems like Tree is stepping down from the tournament scene...

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Wrong match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHQZBcLb5Z8

Wrong Match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0eYUlAQLk

 

[DMG]

There's never gonna BE another M2K or another "M2K like" person for a character. Let's give up talking about what to do with MK cause MAN we'll never know how good Dedede REALLY would be if M2K played him instead of MK.



At a certain point, when do you actually look at a characters tools and traits instead of at a player? M2K is a god and when he's playing his best no one else is on his level. Now can we talk about the character he plays and analyze it?

 

[Conviction]

Wrong Match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Q0eYUlAQLk

Wrong Match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOyo0aVTeb4&sns=fb

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

****ing *****

LOL I DIED

 

[Conviction]

12 *****! 12!

 

[infiniteV115]

I agree with Iblis.
12.

 

[stingers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ae_OE2hjKv0
concentrate shoutout...
I thought that series was mostly for melee? gs =]

 

[Sync.]

Keith is gonna **** you bad players

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What IS wrong with centralizing the game around ledge play, competitive-wise and leaving the "boring" and "that's not what the game is about" and "the goal is to take all stocks" arguments outside?

From what I've heard, it degenerates gameplay

 

[Thino]

From what I've heard, it degenerates gameplay

This is what you heard, but what's your own opinion about it?

And if your opinion happens to be the same, by "degenerate" I assume you mean the game gives less options to win competitive-wise.

If that is correct, tell me why it's bannable or needs to be nerfed.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

This is what you heard, but what's your own opinion about it?

And if your opinion happens to be the same, by "degenerate" I assume you mean the game gives less options to win competitive-wise.

If that is correct, tell me why it's bannable or needs to be nerfed.

My opinion doesn't matter. It's what I've heard about competitive gaming. It should be banned because it removes a lot of competitive depth.

 

[Gnes]

Maybe you're just, you know, biased and/or bad at telling the difference? Ever considered that one? When I see a game like M2K vs. Gnes back in '10, I also get the feeling, "damn, that's broken as ****". And then I stop, think for a minute, and realize that just because one top player can't do **** about it doesn't mean it's unbeatable, it means Gnes was unable to adapt. It would be immensely scrubby to ban him for something like that.

When you see M2K play, you see a player who has evolved his character to the top of the metagame. The best character, sure, but one with character development which is unmatched by anyone else. I mean, you can claim all you want that someone like ADHD has brought all that they could out of Diddy, or Dabuz has maxed Olimar's potential, but it seems weak. Especially when you consider:
- Vinnie getting better and better all the time with ICs
- 9B possibly being the best ICs main in the world
- Salem basically showing us that ZSS has a lot of room to grow; this one came out of left field
- The fact that we have one national-level Falco, and he's no longer really active
- The fact that we have very few marths worth mentioning (again: the only one worth mentioning is MikeHaze, and I sincerely doubt that he's better than Mr R)

...You get the point, I take it? There is no "M2K of Falco". There is no M2K for Marth or Olimar. There's just M2K, who has basically taken a great character, maxed his potential out, and then taught people around the country how to do the same.

Oh my bad. Next time I'll adapt by jumping offstage with my 6 jumps and have an awesome amazing dbz battle.

How the **** could I adapt to a something flying under the stage and attacking me through the stage, like, we weren't even fighting. Please tell me. I want to know more. Teach me budget player cadet.

 

[Thino]

My opinion doesn't matter. It's what I've heard about competitive gaming. It should be banned because it removes a lot of competitive depth.

This is exactly what I'm curious about, where does this axiom about "competitiveness in a game should be made deeper by removing what makes it less competitive" come from? (if I'm not twisting what you're saying too much)

 

[DMG]

Gnes lmfao DBZ "I AM THE SON OF GOKU"

Thino: That's actually the point. Who is to say it's unacceptable to remove something harmful from the game? There are guidelines on what to remove and what to leave in, and the only "general" test for determining whether to remove something or not is simply if it hurts the game. Now, reasonably you should expect something to be MORE than just harmful to the game to want to ban it. That criteria or "sand in the line" is not set in stone and each community can rightfully chose where to draw it. How dominant, how broken, what impact it has on the scene, what impact it has on the metagame, etc.

Planking is not good for the game. This is easy to establish, regardless of what degree of harmful. It could be super duper broken harmful, or "not good for some characters" harmful. Either way, it passes the general check. After that point, it's just a matter of what you feel is too much or what you feel is best for the game. You can make a reasonable case for either side of wanting to limit/ban planking or wanting a freer game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

This is exactly what I'm curious about, where does this axiom about "competitiveness in a game should be made deeper by removing what makes it less competitive" come from? (if I'm not twisting what you're saying too much)

I don't really know why they ban these things either. This is just what they told me when I brought up walk off camping. I just don't think that you can ban a tactic like walk off camping and allow a tactic like Planking.

 

[DMG]

Also just wanna say this:

MK on rainbow is super gay. Can we please get rid of that stage along with Brinstar so long as MK is legal? You know why Gnes had to play M2K on there right? He had to ban Brinstar cause THAT stage is super lobsided for MK in almost any MU and is even worse. Like let's at least do that please. Get rid of Brinstar Rainbow. So what if Peach DK etc suffers.

 

[Scatz]

Oh my bad. Next time I'll adapt by jumping offstage with my 6 jumps and have an awesome amazing dbz battle.

How the **** could I adapt to a something flying under the stage and attacking me through the stage, like, we weren't even fighting. Please tell me. I want to know more. Teach me budget player cadet.

Gnes lmfao DBZ "I AM THE SON OF GOKU"

Rare footage of M2K vs Gnes when they flew under the stage:

Also just wanna say this:

MK on rainbow is super gay. Can we please get rid of that stage along with Brinstar so long as MK is legal? You know why Gnes had to play M2K on there right? He had to ban Brinstar cause THAT stage is super lobsided for MK in almost any MU and is even worse. Like let's at least do that please. Get rid of Brinstar Rainbow. So what if Peach DK etc suffers.

I would agree to remove the stage since MK is still here, but seeing as how the ban is less than two months away, would there be any true benefit from it other than nerfing MK's power stages?

 

[DMG]

Idk. I think Rainbow MK less is probably fine. Brinstar is debatable though: Wario and G^W finally get to roam that stage. IF you have an very small LGL it would cut down good on sharking shenanigans. Rainbow without MK is still kinda gay, but it's not "I literally have no answer to this" kind of gay.