Match Up Discussion: Meta Knight ~

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Although the GnW Boards have it at even iirc. O.o


And your argument would work fine if Brawl was a regular fighting game, but Brawl is Brawl so nothing makes sense.

 

[Shaya]

Marth has it better than previously assumed because of Dolphin Slash (many of G&W's approaches are multi hit moves that get ***** by DS), and the slightly better range overall screwing over his priority.

I think now we have to assume MK beats out G&W better than we do.

 

[grandmaster192]

I think 65:35 is accurate.

In all honesty, I don't think Marth has a way to reliably contain MK, nor does he have any way to safely approach MK consistantly.

I wouldn't counter pick Snake against him, though, Steel. I would just MK ditto instead.

 

[Steel]

I wouldn't counter pick Snake against him, though, Steel. I would just MK ditto instead.

no

use meta or snake

10charmanders

 

[Remzi]

Good so you all do agree. 65:35 is where this matchup should be

 

[3xSwords]

What strategy does a Marth use then? Rack up damage with SH fair, punish with DB whenever possible, and abuse grab release for the kill?

 

[Zankoku]

KO off the top because you're not going to be edgeguarding MK much.

 

[Kyari]

Platforms are amazing for KO'ing off the top as well, take any platform stage you can get and abuse them. You do not want to fight MK on FD or on open ground for too long.

EDIT: usmash

 

[ZHMT]

What strategy does a Marth use then? Rack up damage with SH fair, punish with DB whenever possible, and abuse grab release for the kill?

Space with SH fair, which will occasionally hit Metaknight. Dancing blade, grab occasionally. Thats basically it. You can ftilt to beat his short hop approaches, up b out of shield his whorenado.

To finish, Dancing blade up is too good on light characters. If you get in a tipped utilt, that will work even better. The main way I finish off MK is with a dolphin slash or like you said, release grab to fair. You can also release grab to tipped nair, its just a little harder. I only attempt nair if fair is already diminished.

 

[Shaya]

I hope you know there's a difference between tippered utilt and sweet spotted utilt.

Tippered utilt kills the same as untippered (it would seem), only the sweetspot behind Marth has the most kill power.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Although the GnW Boards have it at even iirc. O.o


And your argument would work fine if Brawl was a regular fighting game, but Brawl is Brawl so nothing makes sense.

Didn't Hylian just make a thread about how Metaknight destroys Game and Watch? Apparently, Metaknight can up B through Game and Watch's bair.

No more approaching for Game and Watch.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yes and in his thread on the GnW boards we concluded that GnW should not approach at all. Also we concluded that Hylian was mindgaming the MK Boards by telling them false information. No, Jk.

 

[Shaya]

Protip: Anti G&W Metaknight stuff posted by Hylian works, and it works too well.

 

[Pierce7d]

Eh . . . Marth's Fsmash outranges glide attack. Just saying.

This is false. I went and tested it.

 

[falcoslayer]

Thanks for the guide, it was a pretty good read and the day after I read it I owned a MK.

 

[Steel]

we should rediscuss this, the meta game has changed significantly since we really talked about it

 

[FatJackieChan]

Hey, I am a Marth newb, so I have a question on terminology. People say that you should Dolphin Slash OoS out of MK's tornado. I know that OoS means Out of Shield, but what do they mean out of MK's tornado. And for the record, does Out of Shield mean dropping your shield and doing something. Thank you for bothering to read through this message.

 

[Shin Ike]

Hey, I am a Marth newb, so I have a question on terminology. People say that you should Dolphin Slash OoS out of MK's tornado. I know that OoS means Out of Shield, but what do they mean out of MK's tornado. And for the record, does Out of Shield mean dropping your shield and doing something. Thank you for bothering to read through this message.

meaning when you are shielding MK's whorenado you dolphin slash out of it. don't drop your shield, dolphin slash while shielding for the desired effect.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

You know Metaknight's Neutral B Special? The one that is used when you don't move the control stick at all, and MetaKnight litterally turns into a small tornado for a few seconds? That's what people mean by the Tornado. The full name is the Mach Tornado, but people will call it the whorenado or spam tornado or something like that because they view it as broken. But the Dolphin slash is a nice way to stop it.

 

[FatJackieChan]

Dude, I know what MK's special is. That wasn't what I was asking. Shin Ike got it. Now to Shin, this is a follow up question. Do you wait for the move to end or does it cancel to whorenado?

 

[Shin Ike]

Dude, I know what MK's special is. That wasn't what I was asking. Shin Ike got it. Now to Shin, this is a follow up question. Do you wait for the move to end or does it cancel to whorenado?

you got it sir. it'll pretty much cancel it so do it during it since marth has some invulnerability frames at the beginning of his dolphin slash.

 

[BBoyindo]

People, the reason why DS OoS is so good is because you can immediately jump out of your shield and then even before you leave the ground DS.

 

[Doomblaze]

When the whorenado is hitting your shield you use your up-B. IF you do it right you will up b and cancel the attack, doing some damage, It takes a bit of practice

 

[3xSwords]

Well I guess I'll start off.... I feel as though this match up has definitely gotten a bit better for Marth. For one we know now a lot of MK's stuff is punishable. There are two threads dedicated to fighting MK on this board and MK's frame data shows that much of his stuff is punishable. For example his d-smash if it hits your shield you should be able to punish with Dancing Blades or SH fair OoS (His attacks while fast usually don't have a lot of shield stun). You can also utilize juggle traps against MK, since your range on uair is better than all his options and this will be one of your main sources of damage.

Grab releases are great if you can get the grab. Grab release > nair is too good. You also have early grab combos at low % (I'm guessing the usually 0-4% but haven't tested). A few examples f-throw>f-smash, f-throw>nair, fair and dair, d-throw>DB. You should not rely on grabs but when you get one you should maximize the damage output.

MK still has all the stuff he had on you before, juggle traps, set ups from d-throw, dtilt traps, d-smash, gimps, blah blah.

I honestly believe this stuff that I'm mentioning now was simply the opinion when we changed the ratio from 65:35 to 60:40. Except it just wasn't stated, that's why I still feel the ratio shouldn't be changed.

General overview: If Marth is to win he must have quick reactions in order to punish and must take advantage of the time when MK's options are limited (juggle traps, ledge guarding). Grab releases need to be maximized in terms of damage output, for the few times you get the grab. Also Marth can not win by just being defensive, you must go aggro once in a while. Also remember that you can try to gimp MK, but only do so rarely and even then only if you see a habit/pattern that you can take advantage of.

This matchup stays 60:40 imo, there really is nothing to convince me its lower (50:50 that will be the day) or higher.

Edit: In case anybody is wondering I am only mentioning aspects we may not have fully realized as points of MK's weakness in previous discussions and I am basically implying all the other stuff.

 

[Steel]

pivot grabs > all of mk's dash approaches

and 3x fthrow > fsmash doesnt tip, but dthrow > fsmash does

10signatures

 

[3xSwords]

pivot grabs > all of mk's dash approaches

and 3x fthrow > fsmash doesnt tip, but dthrow > fsmash does

10signatures

My bad, f-throw>dash backward and f-smash or f-throw>wait a second>f-smash XD

d-throw>f-smash... I'm pretty sure MK can PS this.

 

[Steel]

no he cant lol

 

[lolgrec]

i think that if the spacing and range between the two is that close, then perhaps this should not turn into a battle about using marth's range, and from what i understand, MK is basically the Baron of Brawl, having almost total priority in the air, therefore, i would conclude that playing an aerial battle, despite marth having great aerials, isn't the best idea...

the other thing is that MK is useless after every B move he does: the 'nado, the shuttle loop, etc., making these opportunities, if marth can keep away from them, the best moments to camp the crap outta MK...from every MK i've played, the 'nado has been a staple of their game play, but i find that this isn't a very big deal, i've simply either kept my distance, or (dangerously enough) ran into it and countered it, leaving MK open for a few frames for a marth to try and sneak in an aerial, considering how useful is Fair is...the other thing is that his shuttle loop you can see coming, once that up B is thrown, its clearly visible; however, if the ending attack will be utilized is a different story

the other thing is that even if marth has range in some cases over MK, from what i understand, MK can throw almost all of his moves in 2 frames, whereas marth puts out his quickest in 3-4 frames, so outranging Meta Ghey (lolz) is still not an option...more experience from my game play is that i tend to be aggressive...while marth isn't always a heavy hitter or a killer (like G-dorf or Ike, for i.e.), if i hit someone off the stage, i will chase them off the end and have taken stock by simply jumping out and fair'ing them away and being able to recover w/o a problem and i have used this tactic to keep meta knight's oh so OP'ed recovery to a minimum

if anyone has any comments about this, please let me know (in a kind way, please? ^.^) i am new to smashboards, but far from new at brawl/melee and i would love feedback as a fellow marth mainer

 

[FatJackieChan]

lolgrec, you have the right idea, but when jumping out to guard MK, there is a chance of him counter gimping you (killing you with a move earlier than usual) with a bunch of his moves. You said that keeping out of the air is a good idea, and jumping out goes against this entirely.

The answer to this fight his being able to punish (hard) and outspeed (harder) MK. Meta Knight also plays a pretty good ground game. He gets the job done. One thing that we have the advantage on, is that he can gimp us to kill, but he doesn't have many killing options other than that. He will use fair and nair to keep us from getting back, and Marth has a lackluster recovery, so it is insanely annoying.

I have a question about beating MK on the ground. I know f-tilt is slow, but does it out range him. Specifically, does it out range his down smash. F-Tilt could have an impact of this match if it does.

Oh and lolgrec, welcome to the smash community.

 

[3xSwords]

lol your right steel. Sorry, just that you know I was doing d-throw>f-smash on Lylat and my opponent PS'd it. Forgot to consider tilting stage. Silly me

 

[**Havok**]

I just found out something yesterday while playing with DSF.

Whatever you do, DO NOT double jump (Fair or anything for that matter) in this matchup...especially near the edge.

Double jump = no jump to recover from a shuttle loop which means some gimpy action.

I noticed he would wait for it then punish accordingly and I would die. I stopped. The game went on to be a bit more even.

So remember kids, Don't Double Jump. DDJ.

Thanks.

 

[Xisin]

^ thought that was obvious considering how easy mk can get a gimp on marth. Also Bair ***** glide returns that are not shuttle loop. if tippered it can ko mk quite easy, I've done this on several occasion while the mk was gliding back to the stage (read not shuttle loop.)

 

[**Havok**]

^ thought that was obvious considering how easy mk can get a gimp on marth. Also Bair ***** glide returns that are not shuttle loop. if tippered it can ko mk quite easy, I've done this on several occasion while the mk was gliding back to the stage (read not shuttle loop.)

well its not as obvious because it happens when marth is on the edge:

options

1.roll
2.stand
3. fair,bair, nair ledge drop
**4. Jump, Double jump

These come naturally to mind when playing any game with marth. Jumping is probably the worst option because of shuttle. *sigh* This matchup got more complicated.

Ima test your bair thing, lol i challenge it with fair sometimes when I feel brave.

 

[clowsui]

Here's what you do if he glides towards you:

USmash
It'll catch him out of the glide unless he cancels before, in which it's basically a reset of the situatio

 

[Xisin]

i hate to keep citing this game but its really the only reference i have. I've done this to several mks now (thanks kyari for pointing this out to me to begin with.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUFJgUB0XqA and thanks to OS for posting the video. go to 1:10 and you'll see what i mean.

edit: if you up smash or try to while hes gliding at you chances are you will eat a glide attack ._. MKs loooove their glide attack, ive found hopping at them and countering once or twice a game is easy damage if they're gliding out at you too, i mostly do the counter thing whiles he coming out of the loop... but thats all depending on the player and if they catch on etc.

edit #2

Steel explain to me just how MK cannot PS the d throw to fsmash at 0% because it happens to me about 50% of the time i try to do it, the stages are flat, maybe im just slow and time it wrong iono.

 

[C.box]

I hope my input isn't bad so...

To start off most mk's seem to approach through the air and bair outrages all his aerials (right?) so with that I started to bair against by friends mk to beat out his aerials it worked alot of the time but eventually he caught on and started to punish me during the time I would just land until (out of desperation) I hit A again at first I thought there was too much lag to do a fair but apparently I was wrong I fair'd him as he tried to punish me and the fair canceled as well allowing me to go on the offensive. I can't seem to find or see any other marth using sh bair > fair and I myself find it very useful so 1. is it known? (this is probably a yes) and 2. Is it bad to use? (I find it useful but eh). I was also able to get the uair to come out and the first hit of nair too.

On punishing db is obvious but with the grab releases alot of people grab release into fair nair or even db but dash attack works too and that would seem like a better choice since nair is a killer, fair has many other uses this goes for db too, this would be dash attacks only use and 13 (or 12?) percent tip is pretty good, it gives a bad move a good use.

Gimping mk is pretty borderline impossible but if he tries to tornado recover upb him or u can fsmash since fsmash can hit people outside the stage, upb the drill, you can bair his aerials and glide attack, also on the glide, I managed to time the first hit of nair the hit him with the second resulting in a ko..

As for recovery if they are predictable you can counter them, if your close enough to the stage so di alone can take you to it you can also use your invicibily frames on upb to prevent a gimp (this is highly risky but it would like what a last ditch effort?), I like to di back to the stage with by back turned to it so I can bair their aerials (I use bair to turn me around and if you haven't noticed I <3 bair) and i've used shield breaker as a mix up to since it also outranges mk and sends you forawrd a bit (uncharged and this is also very risky but again another last ditch effort to get back on and I would only try it if you know what they are going to do).

I hope something of all that was helpfull and if not then I would gladly take advice.

 

[**Havok**]

doubles =(

 

[**Havok**]

edit: if you up smash or try to while hes gliding at you chances are you will eat a glide attack ._. MKs loooove their glide attack, ive found hopping at them and countering once or twice a game is easy damage if they're gliding out at you too, i mostly do the counter thing whiles he coming out of the loop... but thats all depending on the player and if they catch on etc.
.

Your best safest, solution to glide attack without a doubt in my mind: BLOCK GRAB.

There's no shenanigans involved, you don't get punished, 1-2 (minimum) pummels automatic %2 (minimum) plus dash attack/fair is a solid %10-12 (minimum if not more) for each one they do as opposed to risking yourself at the mercy of glide attack through trying to upsmash, jab, or fsmash (which is terrible in this situation). Besides you could just DS OoS amirite?

If the MK knows how to space the glide attack to where he lands a bit farther then your grab range then just go the safe route and roll away, he's probably going to Dsmash.

On punishing db is obvious but with the grab releases alot of people grab release into fair nair or even db but dash attack works too and that would seem like a better choice since nair is a killer, fair has many other uses this goes for db too, this would be dash attacks only use and 13 (or 12?) percent tip is pretty good, it gives a bad move a good use.

i've used shield breaker as a mix up to since it also outranges mk and sends you forawrd a bit (uncharged and this is also very risky but again another last ditch effort to get back on and I would only try it if you know what they are going to do).

True and true. If you ever see a MK charging a Fsmash just charge a Shield Breaker, it outranges that and dsmash. He can still hit your hand so watch out.

Saying that Nair is a kill move is misleading, its completely unreliable especially in a high tense match with an MK. That little *hit has a small body so its hard to hit. It does hit the top of tornado though . But again unreliable.

Out of grab release, dash attack is probably the ideal attack since it's never used, always dealing the most amount of dmg and refreshes something you actually use along the way.

 

[lolgrec]

yeah, you're right FatJackieChan, it does seem rather contradictory to what i stated haha lol sorry about that, but i suppose that it boils down to one of two things: 1. i guess i've never really played a good MK (whatever a good MK is lol j/k) and 2. i suppose that those MKs i have played weren't expecting me to jump off the ledge after them because an air game against MK isn't a great idea...as for his ground game, yes, due to MK being able to throw his moves out in 2 frames (if i have my numbers right) makes anyone have a great ground game and there's barely lag (if any) after he throws an attack, but its good that we have Dancing Blades to keep a close battle with MK a little more distant and thank you for the welcome

 

[bludhoundz]

Your best safest, solution to glide attack without a doubt in my mind: BLOCK GRAB.

There's no shenanigans involved, you don't get punished, 1-2 (minimum) pummels automatic %2 (minimum) plus dash attack/fair is a solid %10-12 (minimum if not more) for each one they do as opposed to risking yourself at the mercy of glide attack through trying to upsmash, jab, or fsmash (which is terrible in this situation). Besides you could just DS OoS amirite?

If the MK knows how to space the glide attack to where he lands a bit farther then your grab range then just go the safe route and roll away, he's probably going to Dsmash.

He could also cancel the glide and try to grab you.

I think the safest solution is to jab. It clanks with glide attack. If they don't use the attack, they get hit. If they do, it clanks and you should recover from cooldown first (or at least around the same time).