Match Up Discussion: Meta Knight ~

[clowsui]

lmfao neo
hmm i agree with xisin
once you get offstage you're done as marth, this is no secret...the problem with beating mk as marth is that you can't beat him with your tools alone, you have to outsmart him. he has all the options and we have quite a few too vs mk it's just they're a lot less imo
i'd say like....pick up falco, diddy or snake to fight MK lol, pika too maybe!? actually scratch the falco part, he is unviable on game 1 so >>

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I strongly doubt the match up is that extreme a disadvantage. As someone who picked up MK as a secondary, I have a direct comparison to work with. MK's main difficulty I find is landing kill moves, NOT because they aren't safe and reliable, but because there aren't as many of them. D-smash is scary fast, as is Shuttle Loop. We can be gimped as well, but the trick is to think clearly before attempting a recovery. It all depends on the mindset. MK is also lighter than Marth and therefore dies sooner.

MK is a very aggressive character as well. Marth has a very good camping game, and unlike other characters who are content with sitting and waiting for an opportunity, MK is going to want to make a move, which is what leads to many of Marth's opportunities.
If what MK has against us really is a hard counter, then why is Marth considered a more difficult match up for them?

I am aware how irritating the match up can be, but I doubt its hopeless to the point of the only option being to ditto MKs.

Keep in mind we have advantages of our own. Just stay smart and remember to punish MK for every mistake he makes.

 

[gantrain05]

I strongly doubt the match up is that extreme a disadvantage. As someone who picked up MK as a secondary, I have a direct comparison to work with. MK's main difficulty I find is landing kill moves, NOT because they aren't safe and reliable, but because there aren't as many of them. D-smash is scary fast, as is Shuttle Loop. We can be gimped as well, but the trick is to think clearly before attempting a recovery. It all depends on the mindset. MK is also lighter than Marth and therefore dies sooner.

MK is a very aggressive character as well. Marth has a very good camping game, and unlike other characters who are content with sitting and waiting for an opportunity, MK is going to want to make a move, which is what leads to many of Marth's opportunities.
If what MK has against us really is a hard counter, then why is Marth considered a more difficult match up for them?

I am aware how irritating the match up can be, but I doubt its hopeless to the point of the only option being to ditto MKs.

Keep in mind we have advantages of our own. Just stay smart and remember to punish MK for every mistake he makes.

have you played very many really good metas? because if you have you'd know they don't really every rely on thier kill moves, they can simply gimp you, especially characters like marth who have a very linear recovery.

also stating that mk is always going to approach is wrong, what tools does marth have to make him approach? in a tourney match if you are winning by camping and mk realises it, they aren't going to just run into the ****, bottom line, when it comes to playing gay meta is going to always win.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

I strongly doubt the match up is that extreme a disadvantage. As someone who picked up MK as a secondary, I have a direct comparison to work with. MK's main difficulty I find is landing kill moves, NOT because they aren't safe and reliable, but because there aren't as many of them. D-smash is scary fast, as is Shuttle Loop. We can be gimped as well, but the trick is to think clearly before attempting a recovery. It all depends on the mindset. MK is also lighter than Marth and therefore dies sooner.

MK is a very aggressive character as well. Marth has a very good camping game, and unlike other characters who are content with sitting and waiting for an opportunity, MK is going to want to make a move, which is what leads to many of Marth's opportunities.
If what MK has against us really is a hard counter, then why is Marth considered a more difficult match up for them?

I am aware how irritating the match up can be, but I doubt its hopeless to the point of the only option being to ditto MKs.

Keep in mind we have advantages of our own. Just stay smart and remember to punish MK for every mistake he makes.

You realize an MK with decent (not even good) timing can tornado your body while you aerial camp... right?

And if you're not aerialing so you don't lag and just "running away" camping, you put Marth in the corner.. near the ledge.. where he's ****ed... lol


Sounds like you're inexperienced.

 

[ChaosKnight]

no its such an uphill battle its just not even worth it to Work that much evennnnnn if you still a stand a chance you can be up 2 stock to one but MK still has the advantage because how quick he can gimp you at like 17% ....... its so much of an uphill battle you cant make one single mistake :/

 

[Xisin]

also realize a smart mk will proceed to camp you when he gets the % lead so camping him isnt an option unless you have % lead... He'll just run the time.

 

[Steel]

MK's WILL camp you at a high level of play, at least they should. -10 points for Marth

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

Also note, if you safely F-air, fully spaced tipper.. MK's D-tilt outranges f-air and he can tag your feet in the landing lag with 1/3 chance of trip.. trip = grabbed = put into the air


I could go into detail but w/e

match is prolly liiiike. 65:35 just cuz of grab release.. grabbing is hella hardz tho if they play to avoid it :o

 

[C.box]

Also note, if you safely F-air, fully spaced tipper.. MK's D-tilt outranges f-air and he can tag your feet in the landing lag with 1/3 chance of trip.. trip = grabbed = put into the air


I could go into detail but w/e

match is prolly liiiike. 65:35 just cuz of grab release.. grabbing is hella hardz tho if they play to avoid it :o

Woah, mk boards had it at 65:35 and changed it to 60:40, now marth boards are going from 60:40 to 65:35 <_<...

 

[ChaosKnight]

i hate it with a passion >_>

 

[clowsui]

mk is so gay -___-
if it wasn't for ledgecamping this would be much easier to play

 

[Freezewish]

mk is so gay -___-
if it wasn't for ledgecamping this would be much easier to play

He has so much more than just ledgecamping. lol

 

[clowsui]

i'm aware, but the fact that ledgecamping = opponent has to put for 99x more effort is a huge =_=

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I suppose I'm merely pointing out the basics. I don't think that Marth can use camping eternally! It just seems like people are looking at MK as an unsolvable problem. Maybe that is how it is...

If nothing else, I stand with my point that if a Marth plays smart rather than fast as a priority, I think he stands a decent chance. I did not claim to have faced very many Meta Knights, nor that I have faced a good player period. I'm a inexperienced brawler, that is indeed true. But if I know anything about strategy, its that a character with moves as fast as Meta Knight's will always have (at least) something that they can use, but then that in itself is the conundrum. You say that MK is this god character (which I'm not denying), but then I suppose one would get used to that fact. If the character in question is used to everything going right, or at least somewhat in his favour, why should he worry? We on the other hand are forced to constantly predict what happens next, analyze every movement he makes. How long until we see something he doesn't?

I don't think the matchup should be changed to a hard counter just yet.

I'll admit I'm biased, call me naive but I don't think that Meta Knights are quite as invincible as it seems.

 

[Doomblaze]

ledgecamping isnt that hard to defend against, just stand at d-tilt range and poke him, then grab him or nair him or F-smash him when he eventually comes up.
Alright i lied, it is hard to defend against, you just need quick reflexes.

Neo just owned this thread with his d-tilt>Fair fact...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I suppose I'm merely pointing out the basics. I don't think that Marth can use camping eternally! It just seems like people are looking at MK as an unsolvable problem. Maybe that is how it is...

If nothing else, I stand with my point that if a Marth plays smart rather than fast as a priority, I think he stands a decent chance. I did not claim to have faced very many Meta Knights, nor that I have faced a good player period. I'm a inexperienced brawler, that is indeed true. But if I know anything about strategy, its that a character with moves as fast as Meta Knight's will always have (at least) something that they can use, but then that in itself is the conundrum. You say that MK is this god character (which I'm not denying), but then I suppose one would get used to that fact. If the character in question is used to everything going right, or at least somewhat in his favour, why should he worry? We on the other hand are forced to constantly predict what happens next, analyze every movement he makes. How long until we see something he doesn't?

I don't think the matchup should be changed to a hard counter just yet.

I'll admit I'm biased, call me naive but I don't think that Meta Knights are quite as invincible as it seems.

It is because all of your strengths (speed, range) He is better. He recovery is godly. Considering what that it is really a challenge to over come. This doesn't factor in the how fast some of MK moves come out that compared to yours. How hard it is for you to punish him. It's understandable why people would drop Marth if your tournaments have a lot of MK. No one is going to want to continue fighting this match up because it will just drain you. If you are playing for money why work twice as hard for a win when you can just pick up MK and put in as much effort with him as you do Marth and be in a better shape. Depending.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

I suppose I'm merely pointing out the basics. I don't think that Marth can use camping eternally! It just seems like people are looking at MK as an unsolvable problem. Maybe that is how it is...

If nothing else, I stand with my point that if a Marth plays smart rather than fast as a priority, I think he stands a decent chance. I did not claim to have faced very many Meta Knights, nor that I have faced a good player period. I'm a inexperienced brawler, that is indeed true. But if I know anything about strategy, its that a character with moves as fast as Meta Knight's will always have (at least) something that they can use, but then that in itself is the conundrum. You say that MK is this god character (which I'm not denying), but then I suppose one would get used to that fact. If the character in question is used to everything going right, or at least somewhat in his favour, why should he worry? We on the other hand are forced to constantly predict what happens next, analyze every movement he makes. How long until we see something he doesn't?

I don't think the matchup should be changed to a hard counter just yet.

I'll admit I'm biased, call me naive but I don't think that Meta Knights are quite as invincible as it seems.

We're all fortunate that no MK mains also use Marth competitively... that would be... dreadful x_x

"LOLZ I PLAY MARTH TOO, I KNOW WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO IN EVERY SITUATION *_*"

 

[Doomblaze]

Unfortunately for us, the good metaknights will analyze every move you make, every time you dodge roll, airdodge and shield out of fear, and they will **** you for it.

Yea, we are lucky that MK mains dont use marth X_x it makes sense tho, since hes basically a much much better marth.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Lol. That day is a day all hope is lost...

But then... Why would he? Not necessarily because he's a better character, but why would he even try to delve into the Marth v.s. MK strategy? What would his incentive be? I don't see anyone in the MK boards spouting "OMG Marth is so hard to deal with, lets break down his options!!" On the other hand, we have our boards, panicking over whether or not its even feasible to beat him anymore...

Wouldn't you say we have an incentive to improve against the "many-times-over proved" best and most broken character in the game? We're definitely the ones with room to improve here, I don't think we need to consider a match-up as bad as Marth v.s. MK even worse...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Lol. That day is a day all hope is lost...

But then... Why would he? Not necessarily because he's a better character, but why would he even try to delve into the Marth v.s. MK strategy? What would his incentive be? I don't see anyone in the MK boards spouting "OMG Marth is so hard to deal with, lets break down his options!!" On the other hand, we have our boards, panicking over whether or not its even feasible to beat him anymore...

Wouldn't you say we have an incentive to improve against the "many-times-over proved" best and most broken character in the game? We're definitely the ones with room to improve here, I don't think we need to consider a match-up as bad as Marth v.s. MK even worse...

IF you read the Marth vs MK they do say it's a problem if the Marth plays smart and minimize mistakes and what not. However, it comes back to the advantages that Marth has over most of the cast is trumped by MK.

Also you go into the strategy because better characters can be beaten by players that use their characters better. Considering how MK advantages over Marth it makes sense why the Marths boards are starting to find the match up more and more hopeless.

Also remember that people are playing with money on the line how much are you going to put into a character and continue to fail. Either you drop your main or you drop the game.

 

[mikeHAZE]

neo, are you going to whobo?

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I've read the Marth Vs. MK matchup many times over, and nowhere does it say:

"your best strategy for defeating metaknight? Take your brawl disk and throw it out!"

I didn't say that all MK players suck. I said they have no reason to worry over a character that everyone has made blatantly clear that there apparantly is no hope defeating them.

What are you suggesting? That because Marth isn't the top dog you might as well put him down? Oh. So your idea of a perfect anti-metaknight strategy is for everyone to main MK? (Though that might send up a red flag stating "BAN METAKNIGHT")

I suppose that insures at least that a MK will lose...

If I've misunderstood your post, please understand I'm reading the words on your post and not the intention behind it. You should take that same fact into understanding why I posted this very comment...

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've read the Marth Vs. MK matchup many times over, and nowhere does it say:

"your best strategy for defeating metaknight? Take your brawl disk and throw it out!"

I didn't say that all MK players suck. I said they have no reason to worry over a character that everyone has made blatantly clear that there apparantly is no hope defeating them.

What are you suggesting? That because Marth isn't the top dog you might as well put him down? Oh. So your idea of a perfect anti-metaknight strategy is for everyone to main MK? (Though that might send up a red flag stating "BAN METAKNIGHT")

I suppose that insures at least that a MK will lose...

If I've misunderstood your post, please understand I'm reading the words on your post and not the intention behind it. You should take that same fact into understanding why I posted this very comment...

I'm saying if you are playing to win. There's only really two options when your character has no advantages of a character you're trying to beat. Either drop the game or pick a character that gives you the best shot of winning.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

See, that sort of makes sense. After all, if you want to play to win you'd want to have the best chance of doing just that right?

I have a question. Why doesn't every single player who is proficient at the game follow this philosophy even at the professional level. I don't think there is a single player who doesn't consider MK the best character, so what gives? Tell me that.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

See, that sort of makes sense. After all, if you want to play to win you'd want to have the best chance of doing just that right?

I have a question. Why doesn't every single player who is proficient at the game follow this philosophy even at the professional level. I don't think there is a single player who doesn't consider MK the best character, so what gives? Tell me that.

Maybe the feel their character can compete or they're just loyal to their character. Maybe their frustration level hasn't come to that point or MK hasn't taken over the metagame yet. However, if the amount of MK raise more people will drop their mains and jump ship to whoever gives them the best chance of wining. Maybe the character they play already gives them the best chance and they don't want to do away with all the hours and effort they've devoted to the character they have been using. However, eventually maybe it will get to that point depending on the popularity of MK.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

neo, are you going to whobo?

probably not, when/where is it

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

See, that sort of makes sense. After all, if you want to play to win you'd want to have the best chance of doing just that right?

I have a question. Why doesn't every single player who is proficient at the game follow this philosophy even at the professional level. I don't think there is a single player who doesn't consider MK the best character, so what gives? Tell me that.

Some of us actually like the game, it's really just that simple. I could help ruin it for everybody by picking MK and planking though.


I will however, start dittoing MK's in tournament depending on their playstyle/stage selection


It's comical to see how different the match is when we're both using a broken character. It's like they can't even do anything to me rofl

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Some of us actually like the game, it's really just that simple. I could help ruin it for everybody by picking MK and planking though.


I will however, start dittoing MK's in tournament depending on their playstyle/stage selection


It's comical to see how different the match is when we're both using a broken character. It's like they can't even do anything to me rofl

Exactly the answer I was looking for.

Unless anyone really thinks that the purpose of Brawl is for people to simply make money at tournaments and the like, I doubt that everyone will suddenly drop their main like a hot potato and make this game into 'SSBMetaknightDittos'.

But the discussion is believed to be about the Match-Up against MK with Marth, not MK vs. MK, so I'll continue.

I'm not going to pretend to be the master tactician, but it sounds as if no matter what you do, MK will find a way to hit you in some way (Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Fair, Dair etc). Now if I was shortsighted, I would simply say "use counter then". Obviously if you abuse it he'll grab you every time. Or wait for the counter frames to end. Whatever. I've heard talk of people saying counter sucks for that very reason. What do you do to punish someone who grabs a lot, and also hesitates to attack? If MK had to worry about a 6 frame window every time he attacked, would he be nearly as effective? Of course not. But MKs don't really worry about counter, do they? Is the threat of counter more effective than the advantage it presents?

This is merely an example of something I could say to prove Marth definitely has that MK doesn't. (I'm not claiming that Counter is the ultimate anti-MK move that will push the match-up in our favour)

I hear a lot of "MK has what Marth has and more", but Marth is a different character! I know this is obvious, but it seems that no one takes this into enough account! MK's moves are amazing, I'm not denying that. But I'm pretty sure that we all know what they do, right?

When's the last time a Meta Knight has used something that you, as a Marth player couldn't have possibly avoided? When's the last time a MK has used a tactic you haven't already seen a thousand other MK's perform? Discredit my opinion if you'd like, but keep the question in your head:

Is there anything about MK we aren't aware of?

 

[Shaya]

I'll point out right now a couple of things.

What we have on stage against Metaknight isn't sufficient, if the ratio is to become better or stay 60:40, that's the only avenue Marth has.
Marth off stage is going to die, I can practically guarantee it, Marth cannot recover against MK if they bait your jump/up b, and all they have to do for that is force you to recover low. So, Marth can't recover low against MK, and Marth has a really hard time recovering high as it is, especially because Meta can handle that quite well already.

When it comes to onstage things, just about everything Meta has is equal or slightly better; the slightly better part isn't too bad. On stage could even POSSIBLY be 60:40 or even 55:45. Anything else and you're pretty much hard countered. However that wants to be factored into the ratio... well...

 

[Inle~Orichas]

I'll point out right now a couple of things.

What we have on stage against Metaknight isn't sufficient, if the ratio is to become better or stay 60:40, that's the only avenue Marth has.
Marth off stage is going to die, I can practically guarantee it, Marth cannot recover against MK if they bait your jump/up b, and all they have to do for that is force you to recover low. So, Marth can't recover low against MK, and Marth has a really hard time recovering high as it is, especially because Meta can handle that quite well already.


When it comes to onstage things, just about everything Meta has is equal or slightly better; the slightly better part isn't too bad. On stage could even POSSIBLY be 60:40 or even 55:45. Anything else and you're pretty much hard countered. However that wants to be factored into the ratio... well...

I hear a lot of "can't" and similar words in that paragraph. I don't like that kind of talk, lol. Though you are right, that definitely factors in.

I'm not going to pretend recovering against MK isn't hell, but I doubt that it's as bad as: "When you're offstage, you're dead".

I suppose it comes back to recovering smart, if you see a gimp coming, don't let it kill your midair jump. Maybe mixing up with a sudden DS or F-air or DB1, just to throw off this so called 'automatic stock'. Maybe they'll bait that, maybe they wont. As I've mentioned earlier, MKs don't need to worry about anything Marth comes up with. The trick could simply look at every recovery as something far more serious than the MK sees it. MK can't be in two places at once, and he can't shift from those places as fast as a DS.

If he goes for a gimp, make the best decision possible, maybe he'll use Fair, or Dair. or Shuttle Loop. But I'm pretty sure we've seen every single method of gimp at some point. I'm sure we've been edgehogged enough times to know when MK can and cannot quite beat you to the ledge. The only obstacle is seeing when it could happen. While MK can cover our options, he can't do it all at once.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Exactly the answer I was looking for.

Unless anyone really thinks that the purpose of Brawl is for people to simply make money at tournaments and the like, I doubt that everyone will suddenly drop their main like a hot potato and make this game into 'SSBMetaknightDittos'.

But the discussion is believed to be about the Match-Up against MK with Marth, not MK vs. MK, so I'll continue.

I'm not going to pretend to be the master tactician, but it sounds as if no matter what you do, MK will find a way to hit you in some way (Tornado, Shuttle Loop, Fair, Dair etc). Now if I was shortsighted, I would simply say "use counter then". Obviously if you abuse it he'll grab you every time. Or wait for the counter frames to end. Whatever. I've heard talk of people saying counter sucks for that very reason. What do you do to punish someone who grabs a lot, and also hesitates to attack? If MK had to worry about a 6 frame window every time he attacked, would he be nearly as effective? Of course not. But MKs don't really worry about counter, do they? Is the threat of counter more effective than the advantage it presents?

This is merely an example of something I could say to prove Marth definitely has that MK doesn't. (I'm not claiming that Counter is the ultimate anti-MK move that will push the match-up in our favour)

I hear a lot of "MK has what Marth has and more", but Marth is a different character! I know this is obvious, but it seems that no one takes this into enough account! MK's moves are amazing, I'm not denying that. But I'm pretty sure that we all know what they do, right?

When's the last time a Meta Knight has used something that you, as a Marth player couldn't have possibly avoided? When's the last time a MK has used a tactic you haven't already seen a thousand other MK's perform? Discredit my opinion if you'd like, but keep the question in your head:

Is there anything about MK we aren't aware of?

I'm having trouble following your post.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

To summarize, I'd just have to say that if you play Marth professionally, or any other character for that matter, I'm pretty sure you've seen everything that MK has in terms of tactics, at least for beating whatever character you main. Based on that, it's not that much of a stretch to say that MK has been used on you enough times that you recognize each option MK has. You also know which ones work, and which ones don't.

As you yourself said, it makes sense for a professional who wants to win the game to play the best character. Because of this, I can assume that many players come to that revelation.

Now if there is a higher percentage of people who play MK than any other player, you would have a good idea of what MK can do. If you agree, it is logical that the above conclusion is correct, that MK is the character that even non MK-mains know very well. The advantage I speak of is that the same is not true for Marth, at least not to that extent.

Is that a bit more clear?

 

[∫unk]

Inle all the pro high top tiers are extremely experienced in all the high top tier matchups

All your questions can only really be answered by saying pro marths have probably thought of every solution you have and more, and their still saying mk ***** marth.

Giving away your money every week to mk is not fun.

Really almost everyone decent in socal has a mk/snake secondary so ppl are turning to mk. I just hope it reaches a level of dominance where they do ban him.

 

[Mikey7]

Inle come out to a Canada tourney (he hasn't been to one yet from my knowledge) and...you'll see how this matchup is almost unwinnable. Theres one on April 11th, check the tournament listings.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Inle all the pro high top tiers are extremely experienced in all the high top tier matchups

All your questions can only really be answered by saying pro marths have probably thought of every solution you have and more, and their still saying mk ***** marth.

Giving away your money every week to mk is not fun.

Really almost everyone decent in socal has a mk/snake secondary so ppl are turning to mk. I just hope it reaches a level of dominance where they do ban him.

If they ban MK then they might as well ban Snake IMO. IDC how many bad match ups he has his moves are crazy and makes no sense.

 

[ZHMT]

Snake is at a disadvantaged position in the air and offstage...MK isnt.

Thats my reason hes nowhere near MK anyways, there are tactics to beat him lol.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Junk, your absolutely right, but I think based on how much more problems MK would have from a MK ditto, I'd say that the current MK mains are so experienced with the MK ditto matchup that it makes the "extreme experience" that MK's have with other High/Top tiers look quite a bit less significant. Obviously you don't get good without knowing all the matchups, but in some cases you have to know just a bit more than the standard knowledge for professional play.

I have another question. Is the appeal for Marths to ditto MKs because its easier, or is it that it might also show tournament organizers the true potential of MK's dominance?

Anyways, my argument isn't that the matchup should be changed, its that it should be changed prematurely. It doesn't sound like anything major has happened in the MK vs. Marth matchup, so it seems the only thing that's changed is our perspective.

@Mikey: If I have the time, I'd be more than glad to come down.

 

[Steel]

Inle you have to understand that when you go the MK ditto route it all comes down to "who is better" if you both have significant knowledge of the match up.

Obviously, you can't expect to win a ditto if you have never done it before or don't even have a good MK, but the work you have to put in to learn MK is well worth it instead of being knocked out of a tournament early vs a turtling MK.

 

[Inle~Orichas]

Okay, in that case, my next question is:

Which character does well (or at least significantly better than Marth) against a 'turtling MK' other than MK himself?

 

[gantrain05]

Inle you have to understand that when you go the MK ditto route it all comes down to "who is better" if you both have significant knowledge of the match up.

Obviously, you can't expect to win a ditto if you have never done it before or don't even have a good MK, but the work you have to put in to learn MK is well worth it instead of being knocked out of a tournament early vs a turtling MK.

don't even get me started on "turtling metaknights" i was at a tourney the other day against a snake/DDD main, he wins first round against my peach, so i CP corneria and i usually play DK, olimar, or fox on corneria, and instead of playing snake or 3d, he picks MK and just literally stands there behind the tip of the fin trapping me at the back in that death zone, he would not come down to me, but there was really no possible way to get past MK's edge gaurd tactics.