Match Up Discussion: Meta Knight ~

[Mikey7]

A couple of days ago I used nair vs glide attack, the first attack clanked and the second attack hit MK...if anyone can test this out some more it could be useful because alot of MKs use glide attack often.

 

[Xisin]

Your best safest, solution to glide attack without a doubt in my mind: BLOCK GRAB.


If the MK knows how to space the glide attack to where he lands a bit farther then your grab range then just go the safe route and roll away, he's probably going to Dsmash.

That's the problem, every MK i play does know how to space their GA so its out of grab range, as it was said before... is a pivot grab reasonable for this?

Also is it just mean or does the match up seem extremely hot cold and one sided one way or another? more often MK winning the marth, but both have a hard time gaining momentum againsst the other?

A couple of days ago I used nair vs glide attack, the first attack clanked and the second attack hit MK...if anyone can test this out some more it could be useful because alot of MKs use glide attack often.

And you are correct nair and fair will clank with the glide attack even in the air, the problem is, is well actually making it clank without eating the hit, its hard and risky, not something i want to do alot... Especially when you can actually just wait out for a time to punish at times.

 

[C.box]

Your best safest, solution to glide attack without a doubt in my mind: BLOCK GRAB.

There's no shenanigans involved, you don't get punished, 1-2 (minimum) pummels automatic %2 (minimum) plus dash attack/fair is a solid %10-12 (minimum if not more) for each one they do as opposed to risking yourself at the mercy of glide attack through trying to upsmash, jab, or fsmash (which is terrible in this situation). Besides you could just DS OoS amirite?

If the MK knows how to space the glide attack to where he lands a bit farther then your grab range then just go the safe route and roll away, he's probably going to Dsmash.






True and true. If you ever see a MK charging a Fsmash just charge a Shield Breaker, it outranges that and dsmash. He can still hit your hand so watch out.

Saying that Nair is a kill move is misleading, its completely unreliable especially in a high tense match with an MK. That little *hit has a small body so its hard to hit. It does hit the top of tornado though . But again unreliable.

Out of grab release, dash attack is probably the ideal attack since it's never used, always dealing the most amount of dmg and refreshes something you actually use along the way.

Well I only said nair as a killer since it's marths most potent aerial and can be done out of a grab release but your right in that it is pretty unreliable.

Also on the glide attack if mk spaces it right so it's out of grab range would you be able to shield drop fsmash mk? I'm sure its range is superior to dsmash (i think dtilt is mk's longest ranged attack? and they have roughly the same range) so perhaps it can be used as a punishment if you can anticipate the mk's next move?

 

[**Havok**]

That's the problem, every MK i play does know how to space their GA so its out of grab range, as it was said before... is a pivot grab reasonable for this?

You'll eat a dsmash if you try to pivot grab, he'll hit your hand.

Also is it just me or does the match up seem extremely hot cold and one sided one way or another? more often MK winning the marth, but both have a hard time gaining momentum against the other?

It is, depending on the MK he can push you off the edge, shuttle loop you just to push you off again, a dair and that's a stock off Marth.

Buuuuut if the MK doesn't approach offstage that much it's not as bad.

Also on the glide attack if mk spaces it right so it's out of grab range would you be able to shield drop fsmash mk? I'm sure its range is superior to dsmash (i think dtilt is mk's longest ranged attack? and they have roughly the same range) so perhaps it can be used as a punishment if you can anticipate the mk's next move?

No you can't fsmash MK:
1. Marth's Fsmash is significantly slower than dsmash
2. MK's size gives him a bit more time to react (the sword DOES have to travel down to hit afterall)
Maybe a power shield would do it justice, even then glide attack has a weird hit box.

Ftilt it MK's longest attack, it outranges Fair (the last swipe that goes upwards).

You can Fsmash a wee-past dtilt, so do it to people that like to pam dtilt.

 

[Darxmarth23]

MK isn't so hard anymore. Now that everyone has been focusing on getting around him.

 

[**Havok**]

along with the discussion we've been having, and I know this hasn't been read too much (or maybe it has)

Take a look.

My Marth vs MK Guide

I do have to add a few things, change out a few things, delete a few things but overall its basically the same thing.


I think we should discuss on stage counterpicking-- I've seen people pick up castle siege for this matchup.

Anyone have any more suggestions? Or are we stuck on neutrals from now and forever?

 

[C.box]

You'll eat a dsmash if you try to pivot grab, he'll hit your hand.





It is, depending on the MK he can push you off the edge, shuttle loop you just to push you off again, a dair and that's a stock off Marth.

Buuuuut if the MK doesn't approach offstage that much it's not as bad.





No you can't fsmash MK:
1. Marth's Fsmash is significantly slower than dsmash
2. MK's size gives him a bit more time to react (the sword DOES have to travel down to hit afterall)
Maybe a power shield would do it justice, even then glide attack has a weird hit box.

Ftilt it MK's longest attack, it outranges Fair (the last swipe that goes upwards).

You can Fsmash a wee-past dtilt, so do it to people that like to pam dtilt.

Aah, I guess the best opinion is just roll away <_<.

 

[Nefarious B]

I like Norfair against MK, it takes away his recovery and gimping advantage to a large extent, and Marth goes pretty even for aerial superiority with MK so we can handle all the air battles there.

 

[Pr0phetic]

I like Norfair against MK, it takes away his recovery and gimping advantage to a large extent, and Marth goes pretty even for aerial superiority with MK so we can handle all the air battles there.

Marth already had superiority versus MK in the air 0.o But, I see what your saying. Lately I've been getting a lot of MK experience, and im starting to understand this match-up a lot more. UpB OoS and Grab releases are too good, especially since he's light. Oh, and Up DB4 fresh = rapist.

 

[lolgrec]

ok rukkiko i hate to sound like a n00b -_-' but you seem extremely well-versed in marth game play so i already feel like one lolz but what is OoS and IASA o_O and i have a few questions for anyone to answer plz but my friend plays MK and he is decent with him but what makes his game better is that he is incredible at spot dodging with MK so what should i do to counteract such an ability and overcome this -_-' it was a difficult several hours of friendlies playing against him lol thanks for any answers people may give me

 

[laki]

OoS: Out of shield
IASA: Interruptable as soon as frames i.e. you can do anything. Try using Ganondorfs Up smash then punching during the animation.

 

[Pr0phetic]

OoS = Out of Shield, as in you hold your shield, then you can UpB directly.

IASA = Interruptible As Soon As, which means on a certain frame you can use another move directly, I.e.: DTilt -> DTilt, or FTilt, or anything 0.o

And everyone just starts, its ok.

 

[lolgrec]

ahh thanks a lot guys...yeah i mean i've been playing for a few years now but there are just some things that are new that have come about ever since brawl and sometimes i'm stuck like wtf o_O can you guys give me any advice about the other stuff i mentioned in my msg? if not can you tell me where i can go to get some advice? thanks a lot fellow marth..ers? lol sounds good enough

 

[Darxmarth23]

ahh thanks a lot guys...yeah i mean i've been playing for a few years now but there are just some things that are new that have come about ever since brawl and sometimes i'm stuck like wtf o_O can you guys give me any advice about the other stuff i mentioned in my msg? if not can you tell me where i can go to get some advice? thanks a lot fellow marth..ers? lol sounds good enough

If you have any questions, the FAQ, QandA, and all of the other stickies are a nice place to start.

We'd be happy to help.

 

[lolgrec]

thanks darx i appreciate it ... i was watching the current videos of RoyR and other past videos of awesome marths and i noticed that they really don't use the counter as much as i thought, especially against metaknight, can you explain this reasoning to me? i would figure that this would be a great advantage to use against MK as marth's is the quickest counter in the game o_O

 

[Steel]

counter isnt a good move

 

[Pr0phetic]

counter isnt a good move

Atleast not to be used quite often. It's more useful as a tool if your opponent becomes predictable, or to **** recoveries sometimes.

 

[Darxmarth23]

thanks darx i appreciate it ... i was watching the current videos of RoyR and other past videos of awesome marths and i noticed that they really don't use the counter as much as i thought, especially against metaknight, can you explain this reasoning to me? i would figure that this would be a great advantage to use against MK as marth's is the quickest counter in the game o_O

No problem.

Using counter often can hurt your overall game play. You can be grabbed out of it, and it has a lot of lag at the end if it isn't hit. I would only use it if snake has lain a mine somewhere and you want to get rid of it without running and shielding.

Over all don't use it much.

 

[lolgrec]

ah so there is risk that is attached if not used properly/too much/in the wrong scenarios...makes a lot more sense, i'll try to work on my game play minus the countering that i often use especially when playing against MK considering his speed and sometimes predictability (which predicting MK doesn't always help /sigh) as i have experienced being punished by bad counters -_-'

 

[Steel]

We've been in denial for too long people.

MK ***** Marth in every facet of the game.

70:30.

Putting this up for discussion.

We should really just Meta ditto or pick another character. This doesn't work for Marth at all unless you're just the clear better player.

 

[ZHMT]

What Steel said, the match is gay. Metaknight is gay. Im picking up an alt for Metaknight.

 

[Freezewish]

double post

sorry

 

[Freezewish]

Finally.

I've thought this for a while now. Glad to see it's been changed. MK is too much of a f@g for marth to handle at an even skill level. He can counterpick any stage other than FD and have an automatic advantage.(marth's advantage on FD is debatable) We ban Mansion they CP Cruise. We ban Cruise they CP Frigate. So gay.

*sigh*

What Steel said, the match is gay. Metaknight is gay. Im picking up an alt for Metaknight.

By alt I hope you mean Metaknight himself


Seriously, Wtf Sakurai?! <_<

 

[Steel]

Stages aren't even the problem.

 

[ZHMT]

Metaknight outranges Marth completely on the ground(excluding shield breaker), thanks to the dtilt of his.

In the air Metaknight can chain uairs and juggle Marth very easily. When Marth air dodges one, Metaknight can Dair him and send him offstage or near the edge in a bad position.

The ONLY time, Marth is at a advantageous position is under MK doing uairs and in the air in front of him at tipped fair range.

Metaknight has safe ko moves, Marth doesnt.

Metaknight can GIMP Marth soooo easily its not even funny. Its really pathetic. (One aerial offstage or a baited up b) IF MK GIMPS MARTH THE GAMES OVER.

Metaknight is gay. I just summed stuff up, theres more to it, but this is pretty much all anyone needs to know...

 

[Steel]

Tornado is also wayyyy more of a problem than most people give it credit for. When used at the right time Marth has 0 options.

 

[Freezewish]

Stages aren't even the problem.

It's one of the problems. Minor yes, but still a pain.

 

[ZHMT]

Tornado is one of the reasons I always gave myself extra space to move. Because up close its almost impossible to react to the tornado if a MK is been dash grabbing the whole game.

You are literally put in a 50/50 guessing game and if MK fails, he isnt punished for it most of the time.

 

[Turbo Ether]

We've been in denial for too long people.

MK ***** Marth in every facet of the game.

70:30.

Putting this up for discussion.

We should really just Meta ditto or pick another character. This doesn't work for Marth at all unless you're just the clear better player.

Lol, if Marth loses 70:30, the vast, vast majority of the cast loses 80:20 or worse.

 

[Steel]

If everyone had similar, but worse traits than Marth then yes. This isn't the case.

Ask Pierce what he thinks. We both had a discussion about a week ago on how Marth mains will probably have to resort to Meta dittoing eventually.

 

[**Havok**]

before we go on and say that MK has an ABSOLUTE advantage over marth and its a 7:3.

MikeHAZE beat DSF in winners bracket on sunday =)

Just spacing, playing smart, abusing that dancing blade and taking advantage of errors (not that there were many).

 

[∫unk]

Yeah but that was one time in how many matches between the good mks vs good marths? Their win loss ratio for sets is better than 7:3 at least in socal

You stand the best chance in a mk ditto

 

[**Havok**]

get out of here junk you said you didn't have a computer.

haha.

 

[gantrain05]

wow, marth at a 7:3 disadvantage to MK? i never thought it, but hey im just now picking up marth as a secondary for my peach, so i'll probably be stalking the boards alot and probably asking noob questions =P, but wow, meta is really becoming a problem, i was actually thinking about using marth against meta, but even peach isn't 7:3 on meta.

 

[Shaya]

It's why if the ratio is going to be taken seriously it could send quite a ripple through the cosmos.

But really, the "good" metaknights probably have a 7:3/8:2 ratio with just about every character they play bar dittos. Saying Marth is countered by MK is one thing, reasonable even; saying he's hard countered is ... another.

It's like agreeing that Metaknight must hard counter or worse 30+ characters out of how many are in the cast. I'm a bit disappointed at how instantenous this was thrown out here as "fact". While I'm not saying it's impossible for it to be 70:30, the speed at which neo's message to steel got thrown into this topic was astounding...

So instead of using Marth against Meta, I think I'll just use Fox; worse recovery, worse range, worse priority, more predictable, but he has the usmash! So its definitely better than Marth against Meta. *vents*.

Oh, Meta's Nair. It hard counters Marth by itself.

 

[Doomblaze]

So are we just giving up here to all end up maining metaknights?
Thats not cool guys
We cant let metaknight be that broken, we must fight back!

Look at what Gantrain said, if peach doesnt have a 3:7 against meta and shes plain worse than we are (no offense peaches) than how can our matchup be worse than hers? I cant think of anything she has on meta except that her recovery is better than ours, but her recovery gets gimped more easily than ours does so basically we have to discuss this more.

Unfortunately, i was one of the first people to say that it should be a 7:3 matchup and i agree with you guys, i just dont want it to be true

 

[Xisin]

The problem in the match up lies in landing back on the stage or recovering, the sad fact is Marth is so limited while recovering against an MK is that we can be read alot of the time we go off the stage, we can go deep sure, but ive been gimped going deep just as much as i have been going shallow. You can DB stall but any good mk will know that once you stall db you HAVE to up b to make it back on the stage... easy ledge hog for one that is as agile as mk, another point about stalling with DB is it almost has to be done on rise, if you do it while falling it sinks you down even more.

So lets say we make it to the ledge and we're clung on, well we have a few options but again mk has the possiblilty of covering all the options. we can fall off the ledge and fair through, ledge hop air dodge, ledge hop fair, ledge hop nair over an mk jump up to the ledge hop + counter, get up attack, simply get up, roll on the stage or simply fall and re-recover. all of which MK can cover. To make things worse marth retains all his lag from DS on the first jump that hits the stage... so essientially we are paralyzed for a momment after getting back on the stage if we did use DS to recover. giving mk a chance to knock us back out.

We are pretty much forced to an air game on this one with the reliance of fair, however if mk gets us in the air above the stage it can be rather difficult to land again without eating atleast some damage. Shuttle loop hurts Marth.. alot so does ftilt, dtilt and nair, and as said earlier tornado can be an issue if done correctly. But Yeah you can DS out of nado however if you DS and hit mk say at 0-20ish % you're getitng punished because you wont send him out too far.

Summing things up MK has a better on and off stage game than ours with a sword bigger than ours who can gimp better, run faster and fly. We have grab releases on MK, fair and DB. All of our kill moves connecting means that the MK has to have made a mistake somewhere.

and also i think peach has a much better recovery than marth.

 

[En.Ee.Oh]

MK be whoopin' Marth's *** like...

 

[Freezewish]

MK be whoopin' Marth's *** like...

That's wrong on so many levels. Yet it's f***ing hilarious.

 

[ChaosKnight]

yea **** that im usin snake on Mks